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So...whats the point in mass cards?
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To be fair,the 30 euros youd give a priest to say or dedicate a mass was always seen as a thank you to them
They dont earn much and have a tough enough life dealing with death,sickness and tragedies on a daily basis
Begrudging it to them is not the thing to do0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Can't tell you about weddings and funerals, but mass offerings don't belong to the parish are are correctly not shown as income of the parish. They belong to the priest to whom they are given.
Hmmm. I suspect that most Cathoics think the priest hands this money over to the church. As I said, its a business. Do waiters declare tips, do taxi men? This is no different. These "donations" are actually tips. I'm sure the church takes this into consideration when making up salaries for priests.0 -
To be honest I thought they did hand it over and that all Priests got the same stipend.Hmmm. I suspect that most Cathoics think the priest hands this money over to the church. As I said, its a business. Do waiters declare tips, do taxi men? This is no different. These "donations" are actually tips. I'm sure the church takes this into consideration when making up salaries for priests.
I would say in a busy Parish that this money adds up to a pretty penny over the course of a year for them to keep it all along with what the Church gives them.0 -
To be honest I thought they did hand it over and that all Priests got the same stipend.
I would say in a busy Parish that this money adds up to a pretty penny over the course of a year for them to keep it all along with what the Church gives them.
Its a business Tipptom, and it's going to be a very lucrative one as the priests become fewer and fewer.0 -
All diocesan priests do get the same stipend. But if you ask the priest to celebrate a service specifically for you and make him an offering in respect of that, that's his. Asking him to say a mass for you would be the commonest example of that, but if you make him an offering to, e.g., celebrate your wedding or bless your new car, that's also his.
The thing is, for weddings etc you're likely also to be making a payment to the parish (for the use of the church, etc) and in many cases priests attached to the parish don't seek, or won't accept, a personal offering on top of that. But if you arrange for a priest from outside the parish to come to the parish and celebrate your wedding there yes, the done thing is to make him an offering, which is his.
While other denominations and religions generally don't have the equivalent of mass cards, in general I think it works the same way. If you ask a rabbi or an anglican minister to minister a service for you, you expect to pay him for that. If he's the minister of your parish or congregation he may discourage this, or decline outright, or he may not.0 -
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Of course it is Katy. But there is an argument that it gives solace to the person making the request. I can't really understand how doing it every year for twenty years can actually be seen as helping the dead person to get into Heaven. Are they saying that God needs to be reminded not to forget this person? That end of it is nonsense, but once again, people don't think about it. They just go along with the whole thing put out by the clergy.
However, it is a good way of remembering the deceased person. It's harmless enough, even if it is extracting money under false pretences.
How can you find solace in the idea that some unknown priest is going to read a name of someone he doesn't know from Adam from a list in the middle of mass?
There are many ways a priest could provide solace for the bereaved, but it is beyond me how an exercise like that can provide solace for anyone.
Can they not by a sympathy card, and make a donation to charity on behalf of the person who is dead? Even if the name isn't used, it's known to God...0 -
WheatenBriar wrote: »To be fair,the 30 euros youd give a priest to say or dedicate a mass was always seen as a thank you to them
They dont earn much and have a tough enough life dealing with death,sickness and tragedies on a daily basis
Begrudging it to them is not the thing to do
But they're not saying or dedicating a mass to anyone. That would mean mentioning them in a meaningful way, reminding the congregation of the person, and remembering them together.
An anonymous priest, who could be anywhere in the world, reads a name off a list. That is not a dedication in any sense of the word.0 -
People find solace from knowing that their loved ones are remembered in the prayers of others.How can you find solace in the idea that some unknown priest is going to read a name of someone he doesn't know from Adam from a list in the middle of mass?
I frequently pray for people who I don't know personally - e.g. the victims and refugees of the current war in Syria. I'm sure you do to. I don't think our prayers are devalued by not knowing them personally. God knows them; isn't that good enough?0 -
Call me a cynic,but does anyone believe that there is a PP in the West indies actually reading out a stream of Irish names during their parishoners morning mass because if the revenue stream is to be believed from that case they would be sitting there for a while listening to strange names from across the world.0
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Routing mass offerings onwards to missionary priests is a long-standing practice - it's one of the ways that priests are supported in parishes in poor countries that are unable to support a priest. The priest says masses for the intentions of the donors. He doesn't know (or need to know) the donors' names, or the details of their intentions; God knows them already.
Usually if a mass is said for a deceased person the person's name will only be explicitly included in the spoken prayers if there is somebody in the congregation who would be likely to know the person.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »People find solace from knowing that their loved ones are remembered in the prayers of others.
I frequently pray for people who I don't know personally - e.g. the victims and refugees of the current war in Syria. I'm sure you do to. I don't think our prayers are devalued by not knowing them personally. God knows them; isn't that good enough?
But their loved ones are NOT remembered in the prayers of others. Some priest over in Papua New Guinea who read the name "Mary Murphy" during mass is not praying for Mary Murphy, he is fulfilling a duty that he has been paid to do.
Genuinely offering prayer for strangers in trouble or need is not the same as reading a strange name off a list in the course of a mass. I led a prayer for a woman called Janet during the Prayers of the People yesterday; I don't know the woman, but a member of the congregation did, told me about her illness, and asked me to include her in the prayers, which I did. It hopefully gave solace and hope to this member of the congregation, and others who knew her. We also prayed for the refugees, and for the governments of Europe to be find a wise and humane solution to their plight. We may not know them by name, but we genuinely care about them as a group and as human beings.
One can pray in general for (if one must) those who have died, but let's not pretend that intoning a name from a list, with no thought of the person involved, is praying for them.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Routing mass offerings onwards to missionary priests is a long-standing practice - it's one of the ways that priests are supported in parishes in poor countries that are unable to support a priest. The priest says masses for the intentions of the donors. He doesn't know (or need to know) the donors' names, or the details of their intentions; God knows them already.
Usually if a mass is said for a deceased person the person's name will only be explicitly included in the spoken prayers if there is somebody in the congregation who would be likely to know the person.
If God knows them already, why does some priest in a foreign country need to read their name off a list or "implicitly" include them?
If people want to support these priests in other countries, then just support them. Send them money. But attaching it to the notion of reading a name from a list is a farce.0 -
But, as already pointed out, the missionary priest to whom the mass offering has been routed doesn't intone a name from a list. He typically doesn't know the name of the person who has died, or of the person who has arranged the mass. He doesn't need to.But their loved ones are NOT remembered in the prayers of others. Some priest over in Papua New Guinea who read the name "Mary Murphy" during mass is not praying for Mary Murphy, he is fulfilling a duty that he has been paid to do.
Genuinely offering prayer for strangers in trouble or need is not the same as reading a strange name off a list in the course of a mass. I led a prayer for a woman called Janet during the Prayers of the People yesterday; I don't know the woman, but a member of the congregation did, told me about her illness, and asked me to include her in the prayers, which I did. It hopefully gave solace and hope to this member of the congregation, and others who knew her. We also prayed for the refugees, and for the governments of Europe to be find a wise and humane solution to their plight. We may not know them by name, but we genuinely care about them as a group and as human beings.
One can pray in general for (if one must) those who have died, but let's not pretend that intoning a name from a list, with no thought of the person involved, is praying for them.
What he does is to pray for the intentions of the donor. That's a perfectly genuine and meaningful prayer; why not? (And that's not just a Catholic practice; in my days at Trinity College we prayed daily for the deceased benefactors of the college, despite having no idea who they were. God knew who they were; why would we need to?)
The priest saying mass for the intentions of the donor does so not just on his own behalf but on behalf of the entire church (because a priest saying mass is praying on behalf of the entire church). People derive solace from knowing that the church joins in a corporate way in praying for their intentions.0 -
I didn't know that they don't read the name out. I have observed how, at masses in Ireland, lists of names are read out like a laundry list. I know personally of an instance where the priest got the person (my aunt's) name wrong, to add insult to injury.Peregrinus wrote: »But, as already pointed out, the missionary priest to whom the mass offering has been routed doesn't intone a name from a list. He typically doesn't know the name of the person who has died, or of the person who has arranged the mass. He doesn't need to.
What he does is to pray for the intentions of the donor. That's a perfectly genuine and meaningful prayer; why not? (And that's not just a Catholic practice; in my days at Trinity College we prayed daily for the deceased benefactors of the college, despite having no idea who they were. God knew who they were; why would we need to?)
The priest saying mass for the intentions of the donor does so not just on his own behalf but on behalf of the entire church (because a priest saying mass is praying on behalf of the entire church). People derive solace from knowing that the church joins in a corporate way in praying for their intentions.
How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?
It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?
I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.0 -
I cant get past the idea of paying someone for prayer, never mind paying someone you dont know for prayer for a dead person
Can anyone tell me what the typical wording is in one of these cards, and what words the priest says?0 -
He doesn't receive a list of names - just the money. But he knows that the money represents offerings from people who have asked for mass to be said for the intentions, so he says mass for their intentions.How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?
That's perfectly possible, and lots of people do it.It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?
I'll be honest with you; I'm not overly impressed with the system myself. And I would say that in a lot of countries it's pretty well unknown, but it thrives still in Ireland.I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.
But I wouldn't accept that it's "dubious". If anything is dubious, isn't it taking the view that the celebrant ought to know, or know about, the deceased? That suggests that whatever grace the sacrament offers is in some way connected to the personal merits or attentions of the celebrant. To my mind there's something almost "pure" in the idea of praying for someone's intentions even when you don't know what those intentions are - it emphasises our total dependence on God and on the grace of God, which in no way depends on our understanding or knowledge.
And, whatever about the specifics of mass cards, praying for the unknown intentions of others is a well-settled Catholic practice.0 -
I didn't know that they didn't read out the name either.I didn't know that they don't read the name out. I have observed how, at masses in Ireland, lists of names are read out like a laundry list. I know personally of an instance where the priest got the person (my aunt's) name wrong, to add insult to injury.
How do we know this priest in God knows where is praying for the intentions of the donor? He receives a pile of money and a list of names. He has no idea who donated what, what the intention behind the donation was. How can he be praying for them?
It would make some sense if the priest doing the praying knew the deceased or the donor - surely it's not beyond the bounds of possibility for a person to go to their local priest and ask him to pray for their loved one when they are saying mass? Is that surely not more meaningful that the industrial system now in operation?
I understand what you're saying about the "corporate" notion, but I still think it's trying to defend the indefensible, which is a scam operation by the RC church to get money from the faithful in a very dubious way. It may have had good intentions at the start, and there is nothing wrong with asking a specific priest to do something and them giving him a donation for his trouble, but when it comes to the stage where the public go into a shop and make a commercial transaction for a pre-signed card, there is something rotten in the system. It is no better than pre-Reformation practices of indulgence selling.
So technically I could just American Express this priest in the West indies a tenner with no name or card and have the very same service except the priest in the West Indies doesn't get low balled by a main contractor from this country.0 -
The card says something like "the holy sacrifice of the mass will be offered for the repose of the soul of [name]". And it's signed by or on behalf of a priest, to indicate that whoever gives you the card has in fact made arrangements for the celebration of mass.I cant get past the idea of paying someone for prayer, never mind paying someone you dont know for prayer for a dead person
Can anyone tell me what the typical wording is in one of these cards, and what words the priest says?
The priest just says mass in the usual way, while holding the donor's intentions in his heart. If the donor, or relatives, friends or neighbours of the deceased, are or may be in attendance, he will usually mention the deceased in the eucharistic prayer, but that's not essential.0 -
If you had his name and address, yes, you could write to him asking him to say mass for your intentions and enclosing an offering.I didn't know that they didn't read out the name either.
So technically I could just American Express this priest in the West indies a tenner with no name or card and have the very same service except the priest in the West Indies doesn't get low balled by a main contractor from this country.
But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.0 -
But the list of names that they write down(and I have seen a copy book that they use in a shop full of pages of names)in the shop after you have bought the card is useless if they don't read out their names and does it even go to the hypothetical West Indies?Peregrinus wrote: »If you had his name and address, yes, you could write to him asking him to say mass for your intentions and enclosing an offering.
But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.
I am not trying to be smart here and I have learned(I would bet 50% of people don't know that names are not read out) something about how it operates but I have to say I am cynical about this offshore mass cards intentions.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »But of course part of the mass card is that you will give it to someone else, and that will provide them with some solace, because they'll know you thought of them, and of the person they loved who has died. Doing it this way, you won't have a card to give to someone else.
Buy a sympathy card in the shop and put a note in saying you've made a donation to the church/charity. At least Hallmark don't pretend not to be a commercial enterprise, and you're not supporting a scam.0 -
So the priest reads a name off a list and "holds in his heart" the intention of the donor (how does he know the intentions of someone on the other side of the world he's never met)while saying mass...Peregrinus wrote: »
The priest just says mass in the usual way, while holding the donor's intentions in his heart. If the donor, or relatives, friends or neighbours of the deceased, are or may be in attendance, he will usually mention the deceased in the eucharistic prayer, but that's not essential.
Sorry, but that's a load of nonsense. Especially when the only reason he has this name in the first place is because money has changed hands.0 -
Sorry, there are crossed wires in my posts: I'm working up the screen and didn't see this post before I responded to a later one.Peregrinus wrote: »He doesn't receive a list of names - just the money. But he knows that the money represents offerings from people who have asked for mass to be said for the intentions, so he says mass for their intentions.
That's perfectly possible, and lots of people do it.
I'll be honest with you; I'm not overly impressed with the system myself. And I would say that in a lot of countries it's pretty well unknown, but it thrives still in Ireland.
But I wouldn't accept that it's "dubious". If anything is dubious, isn't it taking the view that the celebrant ought to know, or know about, the deceased? That suggests that whatever grace the sacrament offers is in some way connected to the personal merits or attentions of the celebrant. To my mind there's something almost "pure" in the idea of praying for someone's intentions even when you don't know what those intentions are - it emphasises our total dependence on God and on the grace of God, which in no way depends on our understanding or knowledge.
And, whatever about the specifics of mass cards, praying for the unknown intentions of others is a well-settled Catholic practice.
This gets worse and worse; not only do they not read out the names, the priest in the far off place doesn't even have a list of names? There's not even a pretence that this is about an individual person. Give me the money and I'll say a prayer for all the dead people whose relatives and friends have given me the money, but I've no clue who they are or what they want from this prayer...
That is NOT praying for unknown intentions. That is just cynical abuse of the concept of prayer, for financial gain. If the intention is that grace is accorded through the sacrament of the mass, how can grace be present in such a shoddy transaction? Even if the celebrant doesn't personally know the person for whom the mass is being offered, surely there has to be some sort of spiritual investment or connection with the life and death of the person concerned and the donor? It doesn't mean knowing the person's character, or how they lived their lives, but surely the least one could expect is that that person is prayed for as an individual in a meaningful way during that most important sacrament? The fact that the individual doesn't feature in any way at all, not even by name, makes the whole transaction more grubby than I thought at first.
I agree absolutely with what you say about the beauty and purity of praying in the abstract, for groups of people, cohorts of society, societal issues etc.. But these cards were bought by people for whom the individual mattered, and who, mistakenly by the looks of it, seem to think that that individual will be remembered in some way in the dedication of a mass to them. And what they get is an unknown priest dedicating a mass to dead people in general.
I always found the concept distasteful. What you've told me about makes it quite repulsive to me, I have to say.0 -
Katy, don't get upset by the workings of the RC Church. Honesty has never been their strong point. But people do believe what they tell them and usually, that is a positive thing. This is similar to buying one of those scratch cards on a low cost flight and thinking you are contributing to the relief of some down and out in some anonymous place. It may make you feel good but then, you don't really think about it, do you. Very, very little money goes to the good cause, but people feel good about the thought that they have helped out some charity. It is a little bit dishonest in the way it is presented but people don't really care. Airline chiefs, politicians and clergy don't really do honesty, but they're great at pretending they do.Sorry, there are crossed wires in my posts: I'm working up the screen and didn't see this post before I responded to a later one.
This gets worse and worse; not only do they not read out the names, the priest in the far off place doesn't even have a list of names? There's not even a pretence that this is about an individual person. Give me the money and I'll say a prayer for all the dead people whose relatives and friends have given me the money, but I've no clue who they are or what they want from this prayer...
That is NOT praying for unknown intentions. That is just cynical abuse of the concept of prayer, for financial gain. If the intention is that grace is accorded through the sacrament of the mass, how can grace be present in such a shoddy transaction? Even if the celebrant doesn't personally know the person for whom the mass is being offered, surely there has to be some sort of spiritual investment or connection with the life and death of the person concerned and the donor? It doesn't mean knowing the person's character, or how they lived their lives, but surely the least one could expect is that that person is prayed for as an individual in a meaningful way during that most important sacrament? The fact that the individual doesn't feature in any way at all, not even by name, makes the whole transaction more grubby than I thought at first.
I agree absolutely with what you say about the beauty and purity of praying in the abstract, for groups of people, cohorts of society, societal issues etc.. But these cards were bought by people for whom the individual mattered, and who, mistakenly by the looks of it, seem to think that that individual will be remembered in some way in the dedication of a mass to them. And what they get is an unknown priest dedicating a mass to dead people in general.
I always found the concept distasteful. What you've told me about makes it quite repulsive to me, I have to say.0 -
Katy, don't get upset by the workings of the RC Church. Honesty has never been their strong point. But people do believe what they tell them and usually, that is a positive thing. This is similar to buying one of those scratch cards on a low cost flight and thinking you are contributing to the relief of some down and out in some anonymous place. It may make you feel good but then, you don't really think about it, do you. Very, very little money goes to the good cause, but people feel good about the thought that they have helped out some charity. It is a little bit dishonest in the way it is presented but people don't really care. Airline chiefs, politicians and clergy don't really do honesty, but they're great at pretending they do.
There's a huge difference between a budget airline and a religious movement. The latter SHOULD be above such crassness and should not prey on the vulnerable. I'm no great fan of many of the regulations and practices of the RCC, but I do think that fundamentally, like any Christian denomination, at their heart, they try to live and preach the Gospel. Stuff like this, products of the man-made institution, let them down big time.0 -
Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.0
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No, it not required to make a donation to have a mass said for someone. But try going into a parish office and asking them to get a priest to say a mass for your granny, and see how far you'll get. Try offering a couple of euro, the normal price for a fairly low production greetings card, and see how far you'll get. The mass card thing is an industry, and has nothing to do with masses being said. As Perigrinus said here, the priests supposedly offering the masses don't get sight of any of the names that are noted when the money is handed over. It's just a scam.Lord Riverside wrote: »Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.
There is absolutely nothing stopping you sending money to priests in Africa or anywhere else in the world. What is wrong is taking money off people in exchange for the notion that that priest will pray for your loved one, and this doesn't happen.0 -
A ridiculous intolerant post of other peoples questions and opinions from thankfully a bygone era.Lord Riverside wrote: »Haters will spin anything negatively to suit themselves (so don't bother trying with this post). A donation, is a donation, and not required to have a mass said for anyone, I've had several said without giving the Priest any donation, when I've had no money on me, but when I do I'm not going to be miserable about it. Our local priest on his own bat manages to support several parish Priests in Africa with mass donations. A Priest in Africa can live on a €10 for a week. I can give a €5 to hallmark when a friend dies, or I can give a tenner to a priest in Africa. I know which I'll be doing. No matter what Christian church you belong do it requires financial donations to run parishes and help the less well off, so all the usual hate mongers and soap boxing spammers engaged in spinning the oh so predictable pantomime anti Catholic hysterics, this time about mass cards, can go take a running jump as far as I'm concerned.
Doubt if it makes you any better Catholic than I am.0 -
Sorry I forgot that none of ye spouting the same old sectarianism and spin from the saopbox are actually interested in allowing the reality to be told by people who actually use Mass cards. Parish office ? Lol, I've never seen one in my life. Sorry if I've spoiled the anti catholic pantomime fantasy here. Carry on.0
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Point of order: I didn't say that last bit!No, it not required to make a donation to have a mass said for someone. But try going into a parish office and asking them to get a priest to say a mass for your granny, and see how far you'll get. Try offering a couple of euro, the normal price for a fairly low production greetings card, and see how far you'll get. The mass card thing is an industry, and has nothing to do with masses being said. As Perigrinus said here, the priests supposedly offering the masses don't get sight of any of the names that are noted when the money is handed over. It's just a scam.
The unstated premise in your argument is that, if the priest doesn't know the name of your loved one, he can't pray for him. But as soon as you state the premise, you can see that it's nonsense, can't you? Why would the priest's prayers be one whit less acceptable to God because the priest doesn't know the name of the person he is praying for? What bizarre theology of prayer does this spring from?There is absolutely nothing stopping you sending money to priests in Africa or anywhere else in the world. What is wrong is taking money off people in exchange for the notion that that priest will pray for your loved one, and this doesn't happen.0
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