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So...whats the point in mass cards?

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    #62
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    hinault wrote: »
    There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

    In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states



    St.Paul writing to Corinthians says



    Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,



    So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

    Firstly Maccabees was not accepted ad part of the original canon so not classed as part of scripture by anyone apart from thosecwho are RC.
    The verses in Corinthian s refer to reward and not salvation.
    As for blasphemy against the Holy Sprit. There is no forgiveness.
    To say we can earn forgiveness for anything is to say the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete which is in itself blasphemous.


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    #63
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »
    Firstly Maccabees was not accepted ad part of the original canon so not classed as part of scripture by anyone

    Incorrect.

    2 Book of Machabees was part of the Septuagint.

    Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »
    The verses in Corinthian s refer to reward and not salvation.

    Incorrect.
    Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »
    is to say the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete which is in itself blasphemous.

    Incorrect again because no one here suggested that the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete.


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    #64
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,789 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

    I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

    Irish Catholics have very low self-esteem. They don't believe that their own prayers are heard, and they do believe that the relatives of the deceased will get comfort from the idea that a priest is saying a Mass for the person.

    Catholic from at least some other countries don't suffer from this affliction. If someone I know dies and I want them prayed for, then I take my own butt to an appropriate place and pray. And I probably send a sympathy card to the family too. But I see no need to pay a priest to do the praying for me.


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    #65
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Irish Catholics have very low self-esteem. They don't believe that their own prayers are heard, and they do believe that the relatives of the deceased will get comfort from the idea that a priest is saying a Mass for the person.

    Catholic from at least some other countries don't suffer from this affliction. If someone I know dies and I want them prayed for, then I take my own butt to an appropriate place and pray. And I probably send a sympathy card to the family too. But I see no need to pay a priest to do the praying for me.
    Then again we have to pay here to have our baptism,weddings funerals so I guess that mass cards are looked upon as an added earner.


    Years ago we would have to place money on the coffin at a funeral!!.


    Not to mention the offertory's and the amounts that was read out from the alter that each individual gave and my mother commenting on how meagre our contribution was made to look compared to less well off family's.


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    #66
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    hinault wrote: »
    Incorrect.

    2 Book of Machabees was part of the Septuagint.




    Incorrect.



    Incorrect again because no one here suggested that the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete.

    The very fact he that you think you can earn forgiveness makes it of works and not of grace which makes His Sacrifice incomplete.


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    #67
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    If we can pray people into heaven it makes Christ's death completely superfluous.

    There is nothing in scripture suggesting praying for the dead has any value.


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    #68
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »
    The very fact he that you think you can earn forgiveness makes it of works and not of grace which makes His Sacrifice incomplete.

    Incorrect.

    Jesus Redemption is complete.

    The sinners redemption, if not confined to Hell already, can be completed too through prayer.

    It's important to pray for the souls of those who have passed on and who are in Purgatory.
    Scripture commands us to pray for the dead.


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    #69
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.


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    #70
    keano_afc
    Registered Users Posts: 8,711 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    hinault wrote: »
    Incorrect.

    Jesus Redemption is complete.

    The sinners redemption, if not confined to Hell already, can be completed too through prayer.

    It's important to pray for the souls of those who have passed on and who are in Purgatory.
    Scripture commands us to pray for the dead.

    Where?

    There is no such place as Purgatory Hinault, as the idea of a "waiting room" is completely contrary to Christ's death.

    Some scripture that refutes purgatory:

    Isaiah 53:5: “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.”

    Hebrews 7:27: "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

    Ephesians 8:9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is bot your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    I'll gladly debate this with you, but I know you're not fond of that.


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    #71
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?


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    #72
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.

    Different Bibles? never knew that.

    That explains a lot.


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    #73
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?

    When did he say this?


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    #74
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.

    Martin Luther edited the Bible to create his own bible which protestants now use as their bible.

    As far as I know Luther's bible contains only 66 books.


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    #75
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I left the RC church 30 years ago and i m not protestant. I didnt leave one denominations to join another.


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    #76
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    hinault wrote: »
    Martin Luther edited the Bible to create his own bible which protestants now use as their bible.

    As far as I know Luther's bible contains only 66 books.

    In this case I believe the Jewish tradition did exactly the same thing..


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    #77
    homer911
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭homer911


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Different Bibles? never knew that.

    That explains a lot.

    Its actually a lot more complicated than just Protestant and Catholic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon


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    #78
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B] Then again we have to pay here to have our baptism,weddings funerals so I guess that mass cards are looked upon as an added earner.

    .

    In fairness, these occasions involve the priest, and other people, doing extra work. The church has to be opened, heated, cleaned. And the people involved are giving their time.

    A donation is appropriate.


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    #79
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    homer911 wrote: »
    In this case I believe the Jewish tradition did exactly the same thing..

    You could be correct there. I'm not acquainted sufficiently with the Hebrew Bible to be able to comment.


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    #80
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    homer911 wrote: »
    Its actually a lot more complicated than just Protestant and Catholic

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

    Thank you for that link. A quick glance tells me that my simplified statement of the Protestant and RC Bibles differing to a certain degree, was correct, albeit it in the tiniest of ways, however, my unqualified opinion still stands, my Bible does not have the Apocrypha so I have never read it. Funny how there is so much that IS the same, and still the churches both teach it differently i.e. (a) "you MUST pay for a mass card in order to get your deceased relative into heaven" and (b) you DO NOT HAVE TO pay for a mass card in order to get your deceased relative into heaven". No wonder the churches are emptying at such an alarming rate. Well, our church leaders SHOULD be alarmed.


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    #81
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    hinault wrote: »
    And there you have it.

    Have what exactly?


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    #82
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?


    Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

    It seems purgatory is still operating


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    #83
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    hinault wrote: »
    When did he say this?

    I thought it was around the time they decided unbaptised babies didnt go there but it would seem I got it mixed up with limbo.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

    It seems purgatory is still operating


    Thats the one


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    #84
    Lord Riverside
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Lord Riverside


    Mass cards are fine, it's a nice sentiment, if someone is a Catholic.

    Irish Mass cards did, and still do, support many local and foreign parishes for years.

    The abuse of mass cards, by the anything but religious, was rampant in recent years though.

    From RTE in 2009

    "In his judgment, Mr Justice McMenamin held that there was ample material to show that certain of MCC's and other businesses activities could mislead ordinary Catholics or purchasers as to the authenticity of their Mass cards and their compliance with canon law.

    He described the arrangements made by MCC for celebration of masses as 'surprising', noting that that the €3,600 annual fee paid to a priest in the West Indies for saying masses was 'a tiny fraction' of the €250,000 turnover of the business."


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    #85
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html
    I downloaded this some time ago, I'm not sure of the exact website it came from, but I think it is relevant to this discussion: Pope Benedict XVI authorized publication of a document, indicating that he considers it consonant with the Church's teaching, though it is not an official expression of that teaching. Media reports that by the document "the Pope closed Limbo" are thus without foundation. In fact, the document explicitly states that "the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium. Still, that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis" (second preliminary paragraph); and in paragraph 41 it repeats that the theory of Limbo "remains a possible theological opinion". The document thus allows the hypothesis of a limbo of infants to be held as one of the existing theories about the fate of children who die without being baptised, a question on which there is "no explicit answer" from Scripture or tradition. It ought also to be mentioned here that the traditional theological alternative to Limbo was not Heaven, but rather some degree of suffering in Hell. At any rate, these theories are not the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but are only opinions that the Church does not condemn, permitting them to be held by its members, just as is the theory of possible salvation for infants dying without baptism.

    So Limbo has not gone away.


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    #86
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    Lord Riverside wrote: »
    Mass cards are fine, it's a nice sentiment, if someone is a Catholic.

    Irish Mass cards did, and still do, support many local and foreign parishes for years.

    The abuse of mass cards, by the anything but religious, was rampant in recent years though.

    From RTE in 2009

    "In his judgment, Mr Justice McMenamin held that there was ample material to show that certain of MCC's and other businesses activities could mislead ordinary Catholics or purchasers as to the authenticity of their Mass cards and their compliance with canon law.

    He described the arrangements made by MCC for celebration of masses as 'surprising', noting that that the €3,600 annual fee paid to a priest in the West Indies for saying masses was 'a tiny fraction' of the €250,000 turnover of the business."
    That's a lotta lotta masses to be said,how does he get the time to attend to his parishoners.
    Sweat shop wages!!


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    #87
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    tipptom wrote: »
    [/B] That's a lotta lotta masses to be said,how does he get the time to attend to his parishoners.
    Sweat shop wages!!

    At the end of the day, Mass cards are a bit like birthday cards really. They let someone know that you are thinking of them. You are getting a Mass said for their loved one. That is a nice sentiment, even if you are a non believer.

    The Catholic church is a business, just like any other business. It's business is salvation of our souls. If you want to fully engage it will cost you money.
    Having Masses said for special intentions carries an undetermined fee, weddings and Christenings are generally the same. It's all part of the business. That's fair enough really, it does cost money to run such a huge organisation.

    I'm not sure what Christ would have said about it, or maybe I am!


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    #88
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Safehands wrote: »
    At the end of the day, Mass cards are a bit like birthday cards really. They let someone know that you are thinking of them. You are getting a Mass said for their loved one. That is a nice sentiment, even if you are a non believer.

    The Catholic church is a business, just like any other business. It's business is salvation of our souls. If you want to fully engage it will cost you money.
    Having Masses said for special intentions carries an undetermined fee, weddings and Christenings are generally the same. It's all part of the business. That's fair enough really, it does cost money to run such a huge organisation.

    I'm not sure what Christ would have said about it, or maybe I am!

    It costs money to run a business, and giving money for services rendered, such as christenings, is one thing. Taking money for saying a person's name in the middle of a mass, with the idea that somehow that will expedite the person's journey in the afterlife, is cynical and exploitative.


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    #89
    Safehands
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    katydid wrote: »
    It costs money to run a business, and giving money for services rendered, such as christenings, is one thing. Taking money for saying a person's name in the middle of a mass, with the idea that somehow that will expedite the person's journey in the afterlife, is cynical and exploitative.

    Of course it is Katy. But there is an argument that it gives solace to the person making the request. I can't really understand how doing it every year for twenty years can actually be seen as helping the dead person to get into Heaven. Are they saying that God needs to be reminded not to forget this person? That end of it is nonsense, but once again, people don't think about it. They just go along with the whole thing put out by the clergy.
    However, it is a good way of remembering the deceased person. It's harmless enough, even if it is extracting money under false pretences.


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    #90
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    We get a rundown of ingoings/outgoings every year on Parish expenses even down to laundry just before they look for offertory's ,never anything on it about incomings of donations,mass cards,weddings,funerals,christenings etc.




    The same PP stopped the local shop from selling mass cards from other priests that were cheaper.


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    #91
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,202 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    tipptom wrote: »
    We get a rundown of ingoings/outgoings every year on Parish expenses even down to laundry just before they look for offertory's ,never anything on it about incomings of donations,mass cards,weddings,funerals,christenings etc.
    Can't tell you about weddings and funerals, but mass offerings don't belong to the parish are are correctly not shown as income of the parish. They belong to the priest to whom they are given.


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