So...whats the point in mass cards?

Cabaal

Curious about this for awhile, what is the actual benefit of them?

- Surely if you want a mass said for a person you can request this? (do all requested masses need to be paid for? if so who decides the price if any?)
- If you want to pray for somebody you can do that also..you don't need abit of paper to do so.
- Whats so important that they need to be signed by a priest?

I'll be honest they come across as just a money making racket from the church, charging for pre-signed cards and the like.

I've heard varying reasons from very much practicing catholics about the importance of them, including one person who said they help get the person into heaven.

But isn't this just indulgence? and if so then it means people are essentially paying for the person to go to heaven.....wasn't that very much an abused medieval practice?

Quadrature

I'd say mostly raising money for the local parish.

I was quite creeped or when I received one for my exams as I associate them with funerals.

katydid

Cabaal wrote: »

Curious about this for awhile, what is the actual benefit of them?

- Surely if you want a mass said for a person you can request this? (do all requested masses need to be paid for? if so who decides the price if any?)
- If you want to pray for somebody you can do that also..you don't need abit of paper to do so.
- Whats so important that they need to be signed by a priest?

I'll be honest they come across as just a money making racket from the church, charging for pre-signed cards and the like.

I've heard varying reasons from very much practicing catholics about the importance of them, including one person who said they help get the person into heaven.

But isn't this just indulgence? and if so then it means people are essentially paying for the person to go to heaven.....wasn't that very much an abused medieval practice?

What I find really cynical is the pre-signed ones. I just don't understand how there can be any value in there being no form of personal contact between the person paying the money and the person saying the mass. I could see some kind of psychological/spiritual benefit if the person requesting the saying of the mass made direct contact with the priest, and told them about the person they wanted the mass said for. But what is the point of the anonymous mass produced other than making money?

katydid

Quadrature wrote: »

I'd say mostly raising money for the local parish.

I was quite creeped or when I received one for my exams as I associate them with funerals.

Very cynical, preying on people's grief.

galljga1

Does this practice exist in religions other than catholicism?
Either way, it's a money racket.

katydid

galljga1 wrote: »

Does this practice exist in religions other than catholicism?
Either way, it's a money racket.

I don't think it does.

In fairness, it probably started off as a genuine idea. But once the personal element is gone, and it became mass-produced (pardon the pun) it lost all value.

Manach

It is part of making an effort within a community of believers: both to make an effort to express wishes/condolences and to aid somewhat in the logistics of church upkeep.

From a google search this seems a reasonable FAQ:
http://www.kilmorediocese.ie/diocese/adoration/602-frequently-asked-questions-about-mass-cards

LordSutch

katydid wrote: »

I don't think it does.

In fairness, it probably started off as a genuine idea. But once the personal element is gone, and it became mass-produced (pardon the pun) it lost all value.

Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick,?

Anyway, if that's what people believe in then that's to be respected, even if other branches of the Christian Church can't get their heads around it.

Praying/Prayers are for free (no money should exchange hands) IMO . . . .

blackbird 49

I never send them, A friend of mine husband died recently he was only 47, I found a lovely card about the loss of a husband with a beautiful poem inside

noel farrell

No point if you are gone to heaven you don't need them. If you are gone to hell the are no use

newmug

Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.

galljga1

newmug wrote: »

Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.

Another question to our non catholic brethren: do you have purgatory or it's equivalent? What about limbo, which I am led to believe no longer exists?

Into The Blue

Do they date from a time before 'With Deepest Sympathy' cards?

Probably a bit redundant now, but sure the older generation like them so no harm...

noel farrell

purgatory is a roman catholic thing . even if there was such a place,only god can judge , so how do you know most go there. not mentioned in the bible

katydid

LordSutch wrote: »

Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick,?

Anyway, if that's what people believe in then that's to be respected, even if other branches of the Christian Church can't get their heads around it.

Praying/Prayers are for free (no money should exchange hands) IMO . . . .

What are they? Basically, cards with different messages on them. Mostly sympathy, but sometimes for someone who might need a bit of spiritual support in doing something like an exam. Mostly they are pre-signed, you pay a tenner or something (I've never bought one, but that's what I think the rate is from what I've heard people say); you go into a parish office, and buy it over the counter, and give the name of the person that you want the mass said for. That name is given to a priest - it may be a local priest, or a priest in another country where the church has a mission, and he reads the name during the part of the mass where you offer prayers.

The THEORY, from what I understand, is that you are asking a priest to say a mass for the person, and making a donation for his trouble. In THEORY, he should say the mass anyway and mention the person, even if you didn't give him a donation.

The PRACTICE is that people go into a parish office and buy pre-signed cards. They rarely meet the priest and ask him in person. In some cases, they are pre-signed by some priest "on the missions", who, presumably, will get a list of names of people they have never met, and they read those names out during one of the masses they celebrate.

Smacks to me of pre-Reformation practices.

katydid

Manach wrote: »

It is part of making an effort within a community of believers: both to make an effort to express wishes/condolences and to aid somewhat in the logistics of church upkeep.

From a google search this seems a reasonable FAQ:
http://www.kilmorediocese.ie/diocese/adoration/602-frequently-asked-questions-about-mass-cards

Sounds all very well, but how does a priest who gets a list of names of people he doesn't know and has never heard of "make their intention his own"? He has never met the people who have made the request for the mass, so the name on the list means nothing to him.

Surely that's as bad as selling indulgences?

Effects

Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

In general, the people that are prayed for are already dead. They don't need prayers anyway, as their fate is already decided. So it is both pointless and exploitative.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Sounds all very well, but how does a priest who gets a list of names of people he doesn't know and has never heard of "make their intention his own"?

He just needs God to hear the name. Priests have direct connection to God so he hears it easier than if it was the parishioner praying on his/her own.

galljga1

Effects wrote: »

Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

What?

Effects

katydid wrote: »

In general, the people that are prayed for are already dead. They don't need prayers anyway..

They do need prayers, it gets them in to heaven faster. Less waiting around.

Also, I meant that people need to have it known they are praying. Doesn't have to be for the dead person to know. Like most funerals, it's about showing your face to the family and letting them know that you give a shít.

Effects

galljga1 wrote: »

What?

Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.

galljga1

The more i learn about the idiosyncrasies of the catholic church, the more bizarre it appears to me.

galljga1

Effects wrote: »

Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.

So, giving money to the priest and presenting a card to the family of the dead person validates the prayer?

Effects

It's completely bizarre. It couldn't be any other way.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.

That is a matter of opinion.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

They do need prayers, it gets them in to heaven faster. Less waiting around.

Also, I meant that people need to have it known they are praying. Doesn't have to be for the dead person to know. Like most funerals, it's about showing your face to the family and letting them know that you give a shít.

Praying for God to intercede on behalf of dead people and "fast track" them is a Roman Catholic belief. Other people find it strange, given that we are told that how we live our lives is what decides what happens to us afterwards.

People might want it to be known that they (or rather, someone paid by them) is praying, but that has nothing to do with the effectiveness or other of the actual prayer. The question is whether or not such a prayer has any point, if you believe what we are told in the Gospels, that how we live is what counts.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

He just needs God to hear the name. Priests have direct connection to God so he hears it easier than if it was the parishioner praying on his/her own.

But don't these people believe that God knows and sees and hears everything anyway?

Effects

galljga1 wrote: »

So, giving money to the priest and presenting a card to the family of the dead person validates the prayer?

Yeah. Of course. Prayer doesn't do anything anyway, that's already been proven. Have you never seen how much faith is put into appearance and wealth in the catholic church?

galljga1

Effectively, this practice is quite simply selling indulgences.

looksee

God has a team of angels who keep track of everyone who has died and is in purgatory, and against their names they note how many masses have been said for them. (I imagine they have computers by now, Apple would seem appropriate). Apparently you can do a mass for lots of people and it counts as one each.

Those people who had a high profile and knew lots of people - therefore getting lots of masses said - get out of purgatory faster than the lonely people who led good lives but kept to themselves.

The priests saying the masses don't need to know who they are offering the mass for as it is said 'for the intentions of' the person who paid for it, and the intention was to get their friend or relative out of purgatory faster.

It can be that 'the intention' was that someone could get better of illness, or pass exams or whatever. It does mess with the points system a bit but its all in a good cause.

galljga1

looksee wrote: »

God has a team of angels who keep track of everyone who has died and is in purgatory, and against their names they note how many masses have been said for them. (I imagine they have computers by now, Apple would seem appropriate). Apparently you can do a mass for lots of people and it counts as one each.

Those people who had a high profile and knew lots of people - therefore getting lots of masses said - get out of purgatory faster than the lonely people who led good lives but kept to themselves.

The priests saying the masses don't need to know who they are offering the mass for as it is said 'for the intentions of' the person who paid for it, and the intention was to get their friend or relative out of purgatory faster.

It can be that 'the intention' was that someone could get better of illness, or pass exams or whatever. It does mess with the points system a bit but its all in a good cause.

That about sums it up, apart from the techie bits. I am sure the tech involved is much more advanced. The more I think about religious practices, particularly those associated with the catholic church, the more it all leads back to the one thing: money.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Yeah. Of course. Prayer doesn't do anything anyway, that's already been proven.

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

homer911

It's sad the level of knowledge that Catholics seem to have around their own practices, and even sadder that this happens in the first place..

Priests do not have any hot-line to Heaven, technically we don't even need priests as we already have an intermediary

Effects

katydid wrote: »

That is a matter of opinion.

Possibly. I could also hold the opinion that I live on the moon. That doesn't make it true. Opinions are meaningless.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Effects

homer911 wrote: »

technically we don't even need priests as we already have an intermediary

Who?

katydid

Effects wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Can't open the first link. The second one offers no proof, simply says that studies QUESTION the power of prayer.

On the other hand, other studies say the opposite. http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

So no proof, one way or the other.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Can't open the first link. The second one offers no proof, simply says that studies QUESTION the power of prayer.

On the other hand, other studies say the opposite. http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

So no proof, one way or the other.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. I live on the moon remember? And you can't prove otherwise so it must be true.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Doesn't matter to me anyway. I live on the moon remember? And you can't prove otherwise so it must be true.

Right. That's how you back out when it's proven you're talking nonsense.

Fine.

looksee

As a protestant atheist I don't have too much of a problem with the idea of prayer having a beneficial effect provided the person being prayed for knows that they are being prayed for and is a believer in the power of prayer.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Right. That's how you back out when it's proven you're talking nonsense.
Fine.

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

Delirium

Effects wrote: »

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

MOD NOTE

please remember that you are posting in the Christianity forum.

The mocking tone of your post is not appropriate for this forum.

Kindly refrain from such mocking in future posts.

Thanks for your attention.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

You said there was proof that prayers don't work. I showed you that it can't be proved one way or the other.

At which point you went into a sulk....

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

If evidence is required, then there is no faith!

I am reminded of an incident involving my dear devout (daily communicant later in life) RC mother and an incident 30 years ago. She went to the parish office and requested that a mass be offered for a late close relative at a specific mass on the Sunday closest to their anniversary. This was arranged well in advance and agreed and the money paid over. Come that mass on that Sunday, no mention of our relative was made. There were ructions!

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If evidence is required, then there is no faith!

I am reminded of an incident involving my dear devout (daily communicant later in life) RC mother and an incident 30 years ago. She went to the parish office and requested that a mass be offered for a late close relative at a specific mass on the Sunday closest to their anniversary. This was arranged well in advance and agreed and the money paid over. Come that mass on that Sunday, no mention of our relative was made. There were ructions!

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

If someone says something has been proven, the onus is on them to provide evidence of this proof.

I'm not sure what that has to do with your little anecdote.

LordSutch

looksee wrote: »

As a protestant atheist I don't have too much of a problem with the idea of prayer having a beneficial effect provided the person being prayed for knows that they are being prayed for and is a believer in the power of prayer.

Not sure there's such thing as a Protestant athiest

As regards prayer, I think it's a very healthy pursuit which does no harm to anyone, yet brings spiritual fulfillment to so many. (Still not sure about paying a tenner for a Mass card though), but each to their own I guess, and if that's what the RC Church expects, then who can blame their flock for following the teachings of Rome.

As an Anglican I struggle with the whole concept of payment in return for prayers, which in a previous generation may indeed have been (as another poster said) refered to as indulgences? Then again, those people who pay for Mass cards are not Anglicans, so one might say 'vive la difference' in a Christian context . . .

I presume that Mass cards bring solace, comfort, & peace to many millions of people in Ireland, and throughout the world, which can only be a good thing, even if it perplexes the Anglican interpretation of scripture teaching.

katydid

LordSutch wrote: »

I presume that Mass cards bring solace, comfort, & peace to many millions of people in Ireland, and throughout the world, which can only be a good thing, even if it perplexes the Anglican interpretation of scripture teaching.

I'm not sure if it can be a good thing if it's based on simony.

Jellybaby1

When my CoI mum was quite ill some of her RC neighbours gave her little bottles of holy water. When I asked her what she had said to the givers she said 'I just accepted them, they believe they are doing some good'. So when the Mass cards arrived after she died, I just accepted them. We actually don't believe we needed their priest to pray her into heaven, but maybe someone who is RC would clarify this situation. Do you believe that a RC priest can pray a CoI person into heaven?

Cabaal

newmug wrote: »

Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.

My understanding is the Vatican decided that purgatory doesn't exist anymore a number of years ago. As such it doesn't exist in the catholic faith anymore, except for those that ignore the Vatican and there rules about the catholic faith.

However I've spoken to one very catholic women who believed it still did exist and that the more mass cards/prayers the bigger chance of getting the person out of purgatory. My understanding of purgatory is that this was the old belief in relation to getting souls out of it.

This in many respects seems to really make it like indulgences, where people effectively paid money to secure their place in heaven.
If this is what most people belief mass cards are for (to get the person into heaven faster or out of purgatory) then this just seems to be a money making racket and nothing more.

Cabaal

Effects wrote: »

Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

So the person can't hear you're prayer unless you buy abit of paper?
That seems rather odd.

You might as well expand that idea and say god doesn't hear your prayer unless you donate to the church during mass.