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So...whats the point in mass cards?

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  • 29-08-2015 7:57pm
    #1
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Curious about this for awhile, what is the actual benefit of them?

    - Surely if you want a mass said for a person you can request this? (do all requested masses need to be paid for? if so who decides the price if any?)
    - If you want to pray for somebody you can do that also..you don't need abit of paper to do so.
    - Whats so important that they need to be signed by a priest?

    I'll be honest they come across as just a money making racket from the church, charging for pre-signed cards and the like.

    I've heard varying reasons from very much practicing catholics about the importance of them, including one person who said they help get the person into heaven.

    But isn't this just indulgence? and if so then it means people are essentially paying for the person to go to heaven.....wasn't that very much an abused medieval practice?


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    #2
    Quadrature
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Quadrature


    I'd say mostly raising money for the local parish.

    I was quite creeped or when I received one for my exams as I associate them with funerals.


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    #3
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Curious about this for awhile, what is the actual benefit of them?

    - Surely if you want a mass said for a person you can request this? (do all requested masses need to be paid for? if so who decides the price if any?)
    - If you want to pray for somebody you can do that also..you don't need abit of paper to do so.
    - Whats so important that they need to be signed by a priest?

    I'll be honest they come across as just a money making racket from the church, charging for pre-signed cards and the like.

    I've heard varying reasons from very much practicing catholics about the importance of them, including one person who said they help get the person into heaven.

    But isn't this just indulgence? and if so then it means people are essentially paying for the person to go to heaven.....wasn't that very much an abused medieval practice?
    What I find really cynical is the pre-signed ones. I just don't understand how there can be any value in there being no form of personal contact between the person paying the money and the person saying the mass. I could see some kind of psychological/spiritual benefit if the person requesting the saying of the mass made direct contact with the priest, and told them about the person they wanted the mass said for. But what is the point of the anonymous mass produced other than making money?


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    #4
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Quadrature wrote: »
    I'd say mostly raising money for the local parish.

    I was quite creeped or when I received one for my exams as I associate them with funerals.

    Very cynical, preying on people's grief.


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    #5
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Does this practice exist in religions other than catholicism?
    Either way, it's a money racket.


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    #6
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    galljga1 wrote: »
    Does this practice exist in religions other than catholicism?
    Either way, it's a money racket.

    I don't think it does.

    In fairness, it probably started off as a genuine idea. But once the personal element is gone, and it became mass-produced (pardon the pun) it lost all value.


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    #7
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    It is part of making an effort within a community of believers: both to make an effort to express wishes/condolences and to aid somewhat in the logistics of church upkeep.

    From a google search this seems a reasonable FAQ:
    http://www.kilmorediocese.ie/diocese/adoration/602-frequently-asked-questions-about-mass-cards


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    #8
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    katydid wrote: »
    I don't think it does.

    In fairness, it probably started off as a genuine idea. But once the personal element is gone, and it became mass-produced (pardon the pun) it lost all value.

    Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

    I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

    Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick,?

    Anyway, if that's what people believe in then that's to be respected, even if other branches of the Christian Church can't get their heads around it.

    Praying/Prayers are for free (no money should exchange hands) IMO . . . .


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    #9
    blackbird 49
    Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭blackbird 49


    I never send them, A friend of mine husband died recently he was only 47, I found a lovely card about the loss of a husband with a beautiful poem inside


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    #10
    noel farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭noel farrell


    No point if you are gone to heaven you don't need them. If you are gone to hell the are no use


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    #11
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.


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    #12
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    newmug wrote: »
    Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.

    Another question to our non catholic brethren: do you have purgatory or it's equivalent? What about limbo, which I am led to believe no longer exists?


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    #13
    Into The Blue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Into The Blue


    Do they date from a time before 'With Deepest Sympathy' cards?

    Probably a bit redundant now, but sure the older generation like them so no harm...


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    #14
    noel farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭noel farrell


    purgatory is a roman catholic thing . even if there was such a place,only god can judge , so how do you know most go there. not mentioned in the bible


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    #15
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

    I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

    Unless I've got the wrong end of the stick,?

    Anyway, if that's what people believe in then that's to be respected, even if other branches of the Christian Church can't get their heads around it.

    Praying/Prayers are for free (no money should exchange hands) IMO . . . .

    What are they? Basically, cards with different messages on them. Mostly sympathy, but sometimes for someone who might need a bit of spiritual support in doing something like an exam. Mostly they are pre-signed, you pay a tenner or something (I've never bought one, but that's what I think the rate is from what I've heard people say); you go into a parish office, and buy it over the counter, and give the name of the person that you want the mass said for. That name is given to a priest - it may be a local priest, or a priest in another country where the church has a mission, and he reads the name during the part of the mass where you offer prayers.

    The THEORY, from what I understand, is that you are asking a priest to say a mass for the person, and making a donation for his trouble. In THEORY, he should say the mass anyway and mention the person, even if you didn't give him a donation.

    The PRACTICE is that people go into a parish office and buy pre-signed cards. They rarely meet the priest and ask him in person. In some cases, they are pre-signed by some priest "on the missions", who, presumably, will get a list of names of people they have never met, and they read those names out during one of the masses they celebrate.

    Smacks to me of pre-Reformation practices.


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    #16
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Manach wrote: »
    It is part of making an effort within a community of believers: both to make an effort to express wishes/condolences and to aid somewhat in the logistics of church upkeep.

    From a google search this seems a reasonable FAQ:
    http://www.kilmorediocese.ie/diocese/adoration/602-frequently-asked-questions-about-mass-cards

    Sounds all very well, but how does a priest who gets a list of names of people he doesn't know and has never heard of "make their intention his own"? He has never met the people who have made the request for the mass, so the name on the list means nothing to him.

    Surely that's as bad as selling indulgences?


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    #17
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.


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    #18
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Effects wrote: »
    Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.
    In general, the people that are prayed for are already dead. They don't need prayers anyway, as their fate is already decided. So it is both pointless and exploitative.


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    #19
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    katydid wrote: »
    Sounds all very well, but how does a priest who gets a list of names of people he doesn't know and has never heard of "make their intention his own"?
    He just needs God to hear the name. Priests have direct connection to God so he hears it easier than if it was the parishioner praying on his/her own.


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    #20
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Effects wrote: »
    Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

    What?


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    #21
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    katydid wrote: »
    In general, the people that are prayed for are already dead. They don't need prayers anyway..

    They do need prayers, it gets them in to heaven faster. Less waiting around.

    Also, I meant that people need to have it known they are praying. Doesn't have to be for the dead person to know. Like most funerals, it's about showing your face to the family and letting them know that you give a shít.


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    #22
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    galljga1 wrote: »
    What?

    Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.


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    #23
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    The more i learn about the idiosyncrasies of the catholic church, the more bizarre it appears to me.


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    #24
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Effects wrote: »
    Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.

    So, giving money to the priest and presenting a card to the family of the dead person validates the prayer?


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    #25
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    It's completely bizarre. It couldn't be any other way.


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    #26
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Effects wrote: »
    Pretty simple. Prayer on it's own is pointless and achieves nothing.
    That is a matter of opinion.


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    #27
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Effects wrote: »
    They do need prayers, it gets them in to heaven faster. Less waiting around.

    Also, I meant that people need to have it known they are praying. Doesn't have to be for the dead person to know. Like most funerals, it's about showing your face to the family and letting them know that you give a shít.
    Praying for God to intercede on behalf of dead people and "fast track" them is a Roman Catholic belief. Other people find it strange, given that we are told that how we live our lives is what decides what happens to us afterwards.

    People might want it to be known that they (or rather, someone paid by them) is praying, but that has nothing to do with the effectiveness or other of the actual prayer. The question is whether or not such a prayer has any point, if you believe what we are told in the Gospels, that how we live is what counts.


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    #28
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Effects wrote: »
    He just needs God to hear the name. Priests have direct connection to God so he hears it easier than if it was the parishioner praying on his/her own.
    But don't these people believe that God knows and sees and hears everything anyway?


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    #29
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭Effects


    galljga1 wrote: »
    So, giving money to the priest and presenting a card to the family of the dead person validates the prayer?

    Yeah. Of course. Prayer doesn't do anything anyway, that's already been proven. Have you never seen how much faith is put into appearance and wealth in the catholic church?


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    #30
    galljga1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,938 ✭✭✭galljga1


    Effectively, this practice is quite simply selling indulgences.


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    #31
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,131 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    God has a team of angels who keep track of everyone who has died and is in purgatory, and against their names they note how many masses have been said for them. (I imagine they have computers by now, Apple would seem appropriate). Apparently you can do a mass for lots of people and it counts as one each.

    Those people who had a high profile and knew lots of people - therefore getting lots of masses said - get out of purgatory faster than the lonely people who led good lives but kept to themselves.

    The priests saying the masses don't need to know who they are offering the mass for as it is said 'for the intentions of' the person who paid for it, and the intention was to get their friend or relative out of purgatory faster.

    It can be that 'the intention' was that someone could get better of illness, or pass exams or whatever. It does mess with the points system a bit but its all in a good cause.


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