So...whats the point in mass cards?

galljga1

looksee wrote: »

God has a team of angels who keep track of everyone who has died and is in purgatory, and against their names they note how many masses have been said for them. (I imagine they have computers by now, Apple would seem appropriate). Apparently you can do a mass for lots of people and it counts as one each.

Those people who had a high profile and knew lots of people - therefore getting lots of masses said - get out of purgatory faster than the lonely people who led good lives but kept to themselves.

The priests saying the masses don't need to know who they are offering the mass for as it is said 'for the intentions of' the person who paid for it, and the intention was to get their friend or relative out of purgatory faster.

It can be that 'the intention' was that someone could get better of illness, or pass exams or whatever. It does mess with the points system a bit but its all in a good cause.

That about sums it up, apart from the techie bits. I am sure the tech involved is much more advanced. The more I think about religious practices, particularly those associated with the catholic church, the more it all leads back to the one thing: money.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Yeah. Of course. Prayer doesn't do anything anyway, that's already been proven.

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

homer911

It's sad the level of knowledge that Catholics seem to have around their own practices, and even sadder that this happens in the first place..

Priests do not have any hot-line to Heaven, technically we don't even need priests as we already have an intermediary

Effects

katydid wrote: »

That is a matter of opinion.

Possibly. I could also hold the opinion that I live on the moon. That doesn't make it true. Opinions are meaningless.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Effects

homer911 wrote: »

technically we don't even need priests as we already have an intermediary

Who?

katydid

Effects wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2802370/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Can't open the first link. The second one offers no proof, simply says that studies QUESTION the power of prayer.

On the other hand, other studies say the opposite. http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

So no proof, one way or the other.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Can't open the first link. The second one offers no proof, simply says that studies QUESTION the power of prayer.

On the other hand, other studies say the opposite. http://1stholistic.com/prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

So no proof, one way or the other.

Doesn't matter to me anyway. I live on the moon remember? And you can't prove otherwise so it must be true.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Doesn't matter to me anyway. I live on the moon remember? And you can't prove otherwise so it must be true.

Right. That's how you back out when it's proven you're talking nonsense.

Fine.

looksee

As a protestant atheist I don't have too much of a problem with the idea of prayer having a beneficial effect provided the person being prayed for knows that they are being prayed for and is a believer in the power of prayer.

Effects

katydid wrote: »

Right. That's how you back out when it's proven you're talking nonsense.
Fine.

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

Delirium

Effects wrote: »

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

MOD NOTE

please remember that you are posting in the Christianity forum.

The mocking tone of your post is not appropriate for this forum.

Kindly refrain from such mocking in future posts.

Thanks for your attention.

katydid

Effects wrote: »

Who's backing out? As for talking nonsense, you're the one talking about praying to a magic man in the sky to get what you want.

You said there was proof that prayers don't work. I showed you that it can't be proved one way or the other.

At which point you went into a sulk....

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

Really? By whom? When? Sources, please.

If evidence is required, then there is no faith!

I am reminded of an incident involving my dear devout (daily communicant later in life) RC mother and an incident 30 years ago. She went to the parish office and requested that a mass be offered for a late close relative at a specific mass on the Sunday closest to their anniversary. This was arranged well in advance and agreed and the money paid over. Come that mass on that Sunday, no mention of our relative was made. There were ructions!

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If evidence is required, then there is no faith!

I am reminded of an incident involving my dear devout (daily communicant later in life) RC mother and an incident 30 years ago. She went to the parish office and requested that a mass be offered for a late close relative at a specific mass on the Sunday closest to their anniversary. This was arranged well in advance and agreed and the money paid over. Come that mass on that Sunday, no mention of our relative was made. There were ructions!

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

If someone says something has been proven, the onus is on them to provide evidence of this proof.

I'm not sure what that has to do with your little anecdote.

LordSutch

looksee wrote: »

As a protestant atheist I don't have too much of a problem with the idea of prayer having a beneficial effect provided the person being prayed for knows that they are being prayed for and is a believer in the power of prayer.

Not sure there's such thing as a Protestant athiest

As regards prayer, I think it's a very healthy pursuit which does no harm to anyone, yet brings spiritual fulfillment to so many. (Still not sure about paying a tenner for a Mass card though), but each to their own I guess, and if that's what the RC Church expects, then who can blame their flock for following the teachings of Rome.

As an Anglican I struggle with the whole concept of payment in return for prayers, which in a previous generation may indeed have been (as another poster said) refered to as indulgences? Then again, those people who pay for Mass cards are not Anglicans, so one might say 'vive la difference' in a Christian context . . .

I presume that Mass cards bring solace, comfort, & peace to many millions of people in Ireland, and throughout the world, which can only be a good thing, even if it perplexes the Anglican interpretation of scripture teaching.

katydid

LordSutch wrote: »

I presume that Mass cards bring solace, comfort, & peace to many millions of people in Ireland, and throughout the world, which can only be a good thing, even if it perplexes the Anglican interpretation of scripture teaching.

I'm not sure if it can be a good thing if it's based on simony.

Jellybaby1

When my CoI mum was quite ill some of her RC neighbours gave her little bottles of holy water. When I asked her what she had said to the givers she said 'I just accepted them, they believe they are doing some good'. So when the Mass cards arrived after she died, I just accepted them. We actually don't believe we needed their priest to pray her into heaven, but maybe someone who is RC would clarify this situation. Do you believe that a RC priest can pray a CoI person into heaven?

Cabaal

newmug wrote: »

Yea but what about purgatory? Thats where most people end up.

My understanding is the Vatican decided that purgatory doesn't exist anymore a number of years ago. As such it doesn't exist in the catholic faith anymore, except for those that ignore the Vatican and there rules about the catholic faith.

However I've spoken to one very catholic women who believed it still did exist and that the more mass cards/prayers the bigger chance of getting the person out of purgatory. My understanding of purgatory is that this was the old belief in relation to getting souls out of it.

This in many respects seems to really make it like indulgences, where people effectively paid money to secure their place in heaven.
If this is what most people belief mass cards are for (to get the person into heaven faster or out of purgatory) then this just seems to be a money making racket and nothing more.

Cabaal

Effects wrote: »

Praying is no good unless people know you are praying for them. That's what the mass card is for.

So the person can't hear you're prayer unless you buy abit of paper?
That seems rather odd.

You might as well expand that idea and say god doesn't hear your prayer unless you donate to the church during mass.

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

Thats actually frightening that there's specific legislation for mass cards :eek:

So if a unrecognised person sells/signs them they can be pursed under law?

keano_afc

As has been said, mass cards are about as much use as praying for the dead - absolutely none. Its a money making exercise preying on the vulnerable.

uck51js9zml2yt

There is no biblical basis for purgatory or limbo nor indeed waiting to know where we go after death.
ST Paul says that for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Equally if your not a believer , you are not present with Him after death.

There is also no basis for the living to be able to interceded for the dead or visa versa based on the parable of Lazarus and the rich ruler.

Jellybaby1

LordSutch wrote: »

Not sure there's such thing as a Protestant athiest......

It may sound a bit contradictory, however, I happen to know a few. You'd be surprised where they may turn up, too.

hinault

Cabaal wrote: »

My understanding is ................

And there you have it.

hinault

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

There is no biblical basis for purgatory or limbo nor indeed waiting to know where we go after death.
ST Paul says that for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Equally if your not a believer , you are not present with Him after death.

There is also no basis for the living to be able to interceded for the dead or visa versa based on the parable of Lazarus and the rich ruler.

There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

St.Paul writing to Corinthians says

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire

Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,

Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come

So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states



St.Paul writing to Corinthians says



Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,



So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

Isn't the point of the New Covenant that we are saved because of the actions of Jesus? So what value has a quotation from the Old Testament, from a people who had a whole different understanding of sin and salvation?

I don't think anyone would argue that a person's life would not be arbitrated on in the afterlife, but that is not the same as saying that prayers said by the living would influence that arbitration. The person's faith and actions are what decide it and when they are dead, it's too late to change that.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

. . . I don't think anyone would argue that a person's life would not be arbitrated on in the afterlife, but that is not the same as saying that prayers said by the living would influence that arbitration. The person's faith and actions are what decide it and when they are dead, it's too late to change that.

I think you're possibly being a bit earthbound, there, katydid. From our point of view, limited as we are by our (literally) temporal existence, we distinguish between past and future. But, to God, all things are immediately present; there is no past, present or future. Thus it makes no sense to suggest that God's response to our prayers is in any way constrained by the date on which we happen to make them; that would be to imply a God who is limited by our nature.

If you accept that my prayers for you can have any effect at all on your response to grace, there's absolutely no reason to think that the effect depends on when I happen to make the prayer, is there?

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think you're possibly being a bit earthbound, there, katydid. From our point of view, limited as we are by our (literally) temporal existence, we distinguish between past and future. But, to God, all things are immediately present; there is no past, present or future. Thus it makes no sense to suggest that God's response to our prayers is in any way constrained by the date on which we happen to make them; that would be to imply a God who is limited by our nature.

If you accept that my prayers for you can have any effect at all on your response to grace, there's absolutely no reason to think that the effect depends on when I happen to make the prayer, is there?

If I'm "earthbound" your theory seems on another planet! :P

No, I do get what you're saying but it seems to be to be wishful thinking in order to justify the concept that the deity can be influenced by factors other than an individuals actions and beliefs.

tipptom

Theres a shop near me sells the card and the priests signature on it that I usually cannot pronounce for a fiver,does this kind of cheapskating on my behalf slow down the process of the intention of the card than if it were my local PP and I wonder do people comment on it when they look at it?




I think my above statement highlights how ridiculous the monetary situation with mass cards is.