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Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

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    #182
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    mitresize5 wrote: »
    Just a thought here looking at this from the outside.

    The Irish football team did away with squad selection by committee in the early 70's.

    The Irish rugby team did away with it in the late 80's.

    Does anyone know of any other sport in Ireland where squads are still picked by committee? I'm a little young to remember the football side of things but I certainly remember that the rugby selections committees were rife with politics and horse trading, to the detriment country as a whole as well as the incumbent coach.

    That for me is a red line issue, no matter what else was on or off the table.

    edit: really interested to see if anyone has any examples of current international squads picked by committe

    How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?


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    #183
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, if he can't accept the conditions of the IABA then he needed to leave. If they are the terms and he doesn't like them that's his problem. The IABA have a committee, that I assume is somewhat democratic. Their rules and regulations are set out and you have a choice to work with them or not. He chose not to. The IABA are then getting slated for his quitting.

    Yes. That's all good - though omitting the part where the IABA delegation, according to Sport Ireland neglected to consult said committee - but aren't you just the slightest bit curious, just the teensiest bit, to know what those other conditions might have been. I'm sure we'll hear about it, just not from the IABA.

    On a general point: the whole notion of a board of politicians, boxing men or no, having a say in team selection is a talking point. I mean, I note Des Fitzgerald, Irish rugby player, is a board member. Maybe he has a boxing connection, but don't know what it is, but the notion he should be having a say in HP team affairs is bizarre to say the least. Does Brian Cody bow the knee to Kilkenny board men when he's picking his All Ireland final team? Do the FAI blazers run the rule over Martin O'Neill's team before they take the pitch? An extremely odd state of affairs to put it very mildly.


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    #184
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    mitresize5 wrote: »
    Just a thought here looking at this from the outside.

    The Irish football team did away with squad selection by committee in the early 70's.

    The Irish rugby team did away with it in the late 80's.

    Does anyone know of any other sport in Ireland where squads are still picked by committee? I'm a little young to remember the football side of things but I certainly remember that the rugby selections committees were rife with politics and horse trading, to the detriment country as a whole as well as the incumbent coach.

    That for me is a red line issue, no matter what else was on or off the table.

    edit: really interested to see if anyone has any examples of current international squads picked by committe

    Good post. Happened to be making pretty much the same point at the same time. It's a very pertinent one.


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    #185
    mitresize5
    Registered Users Posts: 996 ✭✭✭mitresize5


    walshb wrote: »
    How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?

    Or does he think we havent reached our potential because of the committee system?


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    #186
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    How about we look at it this way. The succees we have had sice HP was set up with the committee being involved in selction has been very good. Why change that? Was Walsh wanting to do it all on his own? Was he wanting a complete change of the current squad picking mechanism?

    My way of looking at it would be the success Irish boxing has had is IN SPITE OF the system that's in place, not in any shape or form due to it. I would be pretty immovable on that point.


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    #187
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    What is an r/j? If you want to get something off your chest regarding my posting to you then speak English to me. Spell it out.

    R/j referee/judge common parlance in the boxing world


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    #188
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    What is an r/j? If you want to get something off your chest regarding my posting to you then speak English to me. Spell it out.

    Are you going to apologise for the brain comment???


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    #189
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    efb wrote: »
    R/j referee/judge common parlance in the boxing world

    No, it's not common place. If it was I wouldn't have had to ask. Thanks for the clarification. Now, maybe we can get back to this issue.


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    #190
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    No, it's not common place. If it was I wouldn't have had to ask. Thanks for the clarification. Now, maybe we cah get back to this issue.

    Well if you don't know it mustn't be.


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    #191
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    My way of looking at it would be the success Irish boxing has had is IN SPITE OF the system that's in place, not in any shape or form due to it. I would be pretty immovable on that point.

    I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?


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    #192
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    walshb wrote: »
    I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?

    It's called having a drive to succeed. It's when 4th in the world just isn't enough for you but you can't get the changes you need to make them number one.


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    #193
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    gordongekko wrote: »
    It's called having a drive to succeed. It's when 4th in the world just isn't enough for you but you can't get the changes you need to make them number one.

    That's a great way to look at it. Maybe the commitee look at it the other way. Wonder who's right?


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    #194
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    I was expecting this. So, why has it taken 10-11 years for Walsh to now decide that it was an issue? Was the U.S. deal something that gave him the impetus to put it up to the IABA? Kind of throw his weight around so to speak?

    Yes. I already stated the US thing was leverage for a better deal, people in work places do it all the time. You'll also remember, stories would periodically drop into the media usually after Olympics that Billy was on verge of quitting, a fuss would break out and things would be sorted. I would never blame him if they were deliberate tactics, because anything he got was well deserved.

    It's only my own view: quitting for the US was the nuclear option. Billy Walsh seems like a guy who is a committed homebird, passionately in love with Wexford, his home club, Irish boxing in that order. There was never a time when he was entirely happy in the job, right from the start, but he was prepared to put up with a certain amount of nonsense as long as they left him sufficiently alone to get on with the job. I believe a tipping point was finally reached.

    But to answer your initital question: no way a committee selection system should be in operation in elite sport. It's amateurish and out-dated. Democracy isn't always a virtue at this level, top level managers are akin to benevolent dictators, they will consult widely but always ALWAYS have the final say. I see where Bernard Dunne is taking issue, maybe thinks too Billy was getting bit too big for his boots, but I'm not in his corner on this one.


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    #195
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Good luck to Billy, he doesn't owe anything to anyone.

    It will be interesting to see how we fare at Rio however. If standards are maintained and we bring home a few medals then all's well that ends well.

    If however we completely underperform, heads will need to roll at the IABA.


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    #196
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    But to answer your initital question: no way a committee selection system should be in operation in elite sport. It's amateurish and out-dated. Democracy isn't always a virtue at this level, top level managers are akin to benevolent dictators, they will consult widely but always ALWAYS have the final say. I see where Bernard Dunne is taking issue, maybe thinks too Billy was getting bit too big for his boots, but I'm not in his corner on this one.

    Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.


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    #197
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    It will be interesting to see how we fare at Rio however. If standards are maintained and we bring home a few medals then all's well that ends well.

    If however we completely underperform, heads will need to roll at the IABA.

    The exact kneejerk reaction I would expect from a casual or non boxing fan. Not saying you are that.

    There is absolute no guarantee that any of our boxers even win a bout in Rio with or without Walsh. It's that competitive, as well as very subjective.


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    #198
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    The exact kneejerk reaction I would expect from a casual or non boxing fan. Not saying you are that.

    There is absolute no guarantee that any of our boxers even win a bout in Rio with or without Walsh. It's that competitivre, as well as very subjective.


    We have an expectation - the Irish taxpayer is pumping A lot of money into it


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    #199
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.

    Can you point me in the direction of any other successful organization that picks a team via committee?


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    #200
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    http://www.irish-boxing.com/irelands-mind-boggling-medal-record-billy-walsh/


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    #201
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    Well, it's 2015 now and that has been the way since as long as I can remember. Is there a need for a complete overhaul and removal? Who, apart from Billy have been very vocal on this issue as being wrong? I don't even think that Billy has been overly vocal. I would love to know what Billy actually was asking for as regards autonommy and team selection.

    No, you're right on that but then when does anything to do with Irish amateur boxing get covered in the media outside of Olympics and World Champs? I don't think it was an issue 10 years ago, because there wasn't as much competition for places. Nowadays there's as many as 3-4 credible Olympic candidates in many divisions so there's much more scope for disagreement.

    I can't say anything about Billy's specific grievances because I simply don't know. I just hold it as a fundamental principle of top level sport that a trusted manager should have full power to pick the team he wants and prepare them as he sees fit. I mean just look at Mayo football and what happens when you dilute that power even a bit?


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    #202
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Can you point me in the direction of any other successful organization that picks a team via committee?

    I don't need to even try. As it stands the IABA and HP have been having a very successful few years. IF the removal of the involvement of the commitee in the selection process produces discernibly greater success then I'll applaud.


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    #203
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    efb wrote: »
    http://www.irish-boxing.com/irelands-mind-boggling-medal-record-billy-walsh/

    That's brilliant. Could it be better? Possibly.


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    #204
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    efb wrote: »
    We have an expectation - the Irish taxpayer is pumping A lot of money into it

    Yes, some do have an expectation. I have a quiet confidence and a hope. An expectation is not realisitic in the sport of amatuer boxing

    No matter what is in place or who is in place there is no guarantee of medals at the games. You, as an r/j surely should understand this?


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    #205
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    walshb wrote: »
    I don't need to even try. As it stands the IABA and HP have been having a very successful few years. IF the removal of the involvement of the commitee in the selection process produces discernibly greater success then I'll applaud.

    So that's a no then????


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    #206
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, we do have an expectation. And?

    No matter what is in place or who is ion place there is no guarantee of medals at the games. You, as an r/j surely should understand this?


    There are realistic expectations set at every games by professionally set up Olympic teams- Ireland is the same.


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    #207
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    gordongekko wrote: »
    So that's a no then????

    I guess so.


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    #208
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    walshb wrote: »
    That's brilliant. Could it be better? Possibly.

    Any apology forthcoming for the brain remark? Or are you standing over that???


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    #209
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    efb wrote: »
    Any apology forthcoming for the brain remark? Or are you standing over that???

    Are you still trying to side track this thread with this?

    There is a report post function here.


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    #210
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,616 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    efb wrote: »
    There are realistic expectations set at every games by professionally set up Olympic teams- Ireland is the same.

    What is your point?

    Like I said. Regardless of expectation or who is or is not in place, in the sport of amateur boxing medals are never guaranteed. If we do not win a single bout in Rio that does not mean anything. Too many permuations in place. But wait for it, the armchair fan will be on slagging the boxers, the IABA, the lack of Billy Walsh etc etc. That's how fickle sports "fans" can be.


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    #211
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Just as a point of reference. Before 2008, the British boxing team was in crisis with almost precisely the same situation that's pertaining here now and has been for at least as long. Their response? Create a new separate body to control HP, completely independent of the national boxing federations. I haven't heard of any internal strife there since although you can bet they're are a few officials still smarting at having their power curtailed!


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