WhoWillGo poll : Marmion vs Boss

The Rape of Lucretia

connachta wrote: »

I believe he picked the player he's used to work with

But it's a done deal now, why going on talking. Hope Murray/Reddan stay fit, that's all I'll do starting now

So Joe, not being a great coach, is unable to pick the better player. He picks the lesser player because he is used to working with him ? And you can see through his weakness.

rrpc

connachta wrote: »

I believe he picked the player he's used to work with

But it's a done deal now, why going on talking. Hope Murray/Reddan stay fit, that's all I'll do starting now

Whoever goes will be played. That's definite. There will be no benchwarmers, the entire squad is too small for that.

connachta

rrpc wrote: »

Whoever goes will be played. That's definite. There will be no benchwarmers, the entire squad is too small for that.

Play Canadoumania, is ok. No more

connachta

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

So Joe, not being a great coach, is unable to pick the better player. He picks the lesser player because he is used to working with him ? And you can see through his weakness.

He just doesn't care about 3rd SH for now, and chose the easiest and charismatic teammate. But he'll look carefully at Marmion playing in the Pro12, and if a nasty injury happens (I hope not, frankly), call him back. And there, he's a good enough coach to reconsider if the situation require it

connachta

connachta wrote: »

He just don't care about 3rd SH for now

He will have thought more about each and every position in the 31 more than most people will think about any one thing in their lives.


I'm exaggerating a little bit. But he will be thinking about 3rd place everything an absolute sh1t pile.

Yeah_Right

connachta wrote: »

He just don't care about 3rd SH for now, and chose the easiest and charismatic teammate. But he'll look carefully at Marmion playing in the Pro12, and if a nasty injury happens (I hope not, frankly), call him back. And there, he's a good enough coach to reconsider if the situation require it

I have to say that I admire your dedication to Marmion. I really do.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Marmion will never really get much time in an Irish jersey. He was a young up and comer that looked like a guaranteed future international. However over the last couple of seasons his game hasn't improved enough to surpass 2 ageing journeymen.

I think Marmion will continue to be in the wider Irish squad for the next few years but his game time will be limited and one of the younger up and comers will pass him to be Murray's back up by the time both Reddan and Boss are gone.

The Rape of Lucretia

connachta wrote: »

It wasn't poor judgement, it never was 100-0, you can't find one article where the journalist said there's no debate for SH. I don't understand why so many posters here were so diehard. Boss wasn't in the plane at all. No evidence of that whatever you'll say about an hour against Scotland.

An hour against Scotland had nothing to do with it. The die was already cast at that stage. Momo's hope disappeared gradually throughout the whole of the 2014-2015 season. And was complete before the WC squad ever even got training together.

connachta

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

An hour against Scotland had nothing to do with it. The die was already cast at that stage. Momo's hope disappeared gradually throughout the whole of the 2014-2015 season. And was complete before the WC squad ever even got training together.

Even before camp. Better and better. Before he was born, too...

The Rape of Lucretia

connachta wrote: »

Even before camp. Better and better. Before he was born, too...

No need to be ridiculous. Last season.
But of course KeiMo was included as a potential call up needs to be, even though barring injuries, he wasnt in the party of 31.

connachta

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

No need to be ridiculous. Last season.
But of course KeiMo was included as a potential call up needs to be, even though barring injuries, he wasnt in the party of 31.

Last season, and the season before, until February at least, he was better than Boss
Then tired after 60 games in a row, and rejected whereas he is back to the business
Bad timming, just the contrary of White

total former

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I have to say that I admire your dedication to Marmion. I really do.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling that Marmion will never really get much time in an Irish jersey. He was a young up and comer that looked like a guaranteed future international. However over the last couple of seasons his game hasn't improved enough to surpass 2 ageing journeymen.

I think Marmion will continue to be in the wider Irish squad for the next few years but his game time will be limited and one of the younger up and comers will pass him to be Murray's back up by the time both Reddan and Boss are gone.

It's starting to look that way. Whether you agree with his exclusions or not, Marmion has had plenty of time in the national setup and plenty of chances to impress the coaches. It's over two years since his first call-up and he's made zero headway so that's not encouraging for him.

He has a gap coming up between the likely retirements of Boss and Reddan and the development of younger guys, he needs to make the most of it.

Clareman

How about factoring in the fact that Murray is coming back from an injury and isn't known if he'll last a full match or not, if we include 2 or 3 SH's in the squad and Murray gets injured we'll call someone up, considering that there's over a month until a "serious" game it might be worth the risk to bring 2 SH's and another back with the assumption that if there is an injury that there'll be time to call up a replacement, come the Italy match it's always going to be Murray and Reddan either on the field or on the bench.

Clareman

By the way, I think both Boss and Marmion would be far better off playing for their provinces than holding tackle bags/warming the pine, considering both have spent so much time in camp already I don't think there would be an issue getting them up to speed with the game plan/codes either.

Zzippy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It was 100-0 for those who could read the situation correctly.

While you will always have your irrational fanboys, I am amazed that 40% of posters here had such poor judgement.

Mod: You're not long on the forum, so you get a bit of leeway, but please try to post in a less superior fashion towards other posters. People are entitled to their opinion without being ridiculed.

rrpc

Yeah_Right wrote: »

However over the last couple of seasons his game hasn't improved enough to surpass 2 ageing journeymen.
.

I have to take issue with your description of Reddan as a journeyman. Boss might be described as a journeyman but Reddan is a fair bit above that level imo.

Yeah_Right

rrpc wrote: »

I have to take issue with your description of Reddan as a journeyman. Boss might be described as a journeyman but Reddan is a fair bit above that level imo.

I should have clarified that as international journeymen. Both were very good club players in their day (Reddan was better) but I don't think either were ever better than good or solid at test level.

total former

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I should have clarified that as international journeymen. Both were very good club players in their day (Reddan was better) but I don't think either were ever better than good or solid at test level.

A bit harsh on Reddan, he suffered a bit from playing in England when he was playing some fantastic rugby (during the EOS reign), and then Kidney just refused to pick him for reasons best known to Kidney, but he was definitely international class.

Agree re: Boss, never more than a stop-gap at test level.

rrpc

total former wrote: »

A bit harsh on Reddan, he suffered a bit from playing in England when he was playing some fantastic rugby (during the EOS reign), and then Kidney just refused to pick him for reasons best known to Kidney, but he was definitely international class.

Agree re: Boss, never more than a stop-gap at test level.

Even when Kidney picked him, he persisted in playing him with ROG and not with Sexton. It never really worked but I think we should all remember the time he started with Sexton against Australia in the 2011 World Cup. It was his only start in that campaign.

Of his 62 caps, 37 of them are from the bench. He really never got the opportunities that he should have.

connachta

rrpc wrote: »

Of his 62 caps, 37 of them are from the bench. He really never got the opportunities that he should have.

Sounds like the same will happen for Marms

.ak

Yeah, the thing with Reddan is he never really got to play international footie whilst in his pomp. He did a few times in green and really smashed it out of the park... England 2011 probably the best example, but Kidney almost always seemed to change the halfbacks every other game.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

Even when Kidney picked him, he persisted in playing him with ROG and not with Sexton. It never really worked but I think we should all remember the time he started with Sexton against Australia in the 2011 World Cup. It was his only start in that campaign.

We shouldn't remember just that. We should remember that his only two starts with Sexton that year were when we hammered England in Dublin and beat Australia at the world cup. Then very strangely that partnership was dropped after both occasions.

Reddan has always had his flaws, even at Wasps where he benefitted from the Bob Casey effect, he wasn't as great as a lot of people would have you believe. He was however the best option we had for a long time and should have received many many more starts.

rrpc

connachta wrote: »

Sounds like the same will happen for Marms

You just can't stop picking at that scab can you?

To be brutally honest about Marmion, you have to admit that he can mix the good with the bad. He can show great pace and snap and the next minute turn into a meerkat. Under pressure from the opposition he can dither to the point where he has no choice but to go himself with almost always predictable results.

Even when he is being pacey and snappy he can become a bit blinkered and miss opportunities.

rrpc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We shouldn't remember just that. We should remember that his only two starts with Sexton that year were when we hammered England in Dublin and beat Australia at the world cup. Then very strangely that partnership was dropped after both occasions.

Reddan has always had his flaws, even at Wasps where he benefitted from the Bob Casey effect, he wasn't as great as a lot of people would have you believe. He was however the best option we had for a long time and should have received many many more starts.

I remember it well but it's painful to go back to that time in my mind.

It cemented my view that Kidney was a poor coach. He couldn't see the benefit of having pace in the game and even when he would sub Reddan on, he would also sub ROG on, totally negating the effect that Reddan could have on a game. Joe used to start Boss in the tough away games and then sub Reddan on and the injection of pace would completely demolish a tiring opposition.

The thing about his flaws is that he worked on them and eliminated them from his game. He used to throw some howlers of passes or get isolated from a break but he improved immeasurably when Joe took over at Leinster.

That he's still playing at the highest level is testament to his ability to reinvent himself.

Yeah_Right

I wouldn't have seen much of Reddan when he was at Wasps which from what people tell me, that was when he was at his best. A lot of people have said that he should have gotten more caps.

Interesting stat that the majority of his caps were off the bench. I assume the starters would have been Stringer, TOL and Murray? H

I think Marmion will be lucky half as many caps as Reddan and in fact won't even match Boss UNLESS he improves greatly over the next couple of seasons.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Yeah, the thing with Reddan is he never really got to play international footie whilst in his pomp. He did a few times in green and really smashed it out of the park... England 2011 probably the best example, but Kidney almost always seemed to change the halfbacks every other game.

Would you believe TOL got 8 starts on the trot at one point?

#BuerFridayFact

total former

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I wouldn't have seen much of Reddan when he was at Wasps which from what people tell me, that was when he was at his best. A lot of people have said that he should have gotten more caps.

Interesting stat that the majority of his caps were off the bench. I assume the starters would have been Stringer, TOL and Murray? H

Yeah, Stringer initially, then he had a horror show at RWC 2007 (not alone in that, obviously), so Reddan started two games at RWC 2007 then all five in Six Nations 2008, and then Kidney took over and he picked pretty much anyone except Reddan for the next few years.

It's mad that Reddan went to RWC 2007 as third-choice and got two starts, but went to RWC 2011 as first-choice and only got one. Kidney really did lose the plot at that tournament.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Would you believe TOL got 8 starts on the trot at one point?

#BuerFridayFact

Fair point, I probably meant more so the combination of the halfbacks.

irishbucsfan

rrpc wrote: »

I remember it well but it's painful to go back to that time in my mind.

It cemented my view that Kidney was a poor coach. He couldn't see the benefit of having pace in the game and even when he would sub Reddan on, he would also sub ROG on, totally negating the effect that Reddan could have on a game. Joe used to start Boss in the tough away games and then sub Reddan on and the injection of pace would completely demolish a tiring opposition.

The thing about his flaws is that he worked on them and eliminated them from his game. He used to throw some howlers of passes or get isolated from a break but he improved immeasurably when Joe took over at Leinster.

That he's still playing at the highest level is testament to his ability to reinvent himself.

The thing is he never eliminated them from his game, he just had coaches who played around his weaknesses. Under Joe he was spared games that would have really tested his flaws and on days where that was unavoidable we played without the ball (Scarlets away being an example).

He had the benefit of another great coach at Wasps who used him with similar efficiency. The flaws were always there though, and they are certainly still there as we saw against the Dragons last season in the second half where in reality he single handedly handed them the result.

I think if he hadnt been lucky enough to work with the two best coaches the northern hemisphere has seen over the past decade he may have struggled a bit more over his career, but the strengths to his game have really allowed him to flourish in the situations hes landed in.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We shouldn't remember just that. We should remember that his only two starts with Sexton that year were when we hammered England in Dublin and beat Australia at the world cup. Then very strangely that partnership was dropped after both occasions.

Reddan has always had his flaws, even at Wasps where he benefitted from the Bob Casey effect, he wasn't as great as a lot of people would have you believe. He was however the best option we had for a long time and should have received many many more starts.

This. I'm still baffled by what happened with both halves in 2011/2012. That game against England, denying them the Grand Slam, was a genuinely excellent performance and both Redser and Sexton had really good games.

Ireland then played 5 games (including 4 really poor warm up games) before the lads were partnered up again. When they were we beat SH opposition in the SH for the first time in that Australia game. The 2 weren't partnered again until we faced Scotland in the 6 Nations, 7 games later, and we were all but out of the running in the tournament.

14 games from England 2011 to Scotland 2012 and they started only 3 of them together despite the first 2 of them being clearly Ireland's best performances in that time period, if not the 2 years since the 2009 GS. It was madness.

shuffol

Agree Reddan got a raw deal but he did use to have massive brainfarts when playing for Ireland. Twice getting intercepted trying to throw the ball into midfield from the front of lineouts against S.A and England being the most obvious that spring to mind.