All Stars Hurling 2015

donnem33

redlead wrote: »

TJ is 100% guaranteed to win it. I actually don't think anyone is really that deserving of it though. TJ probably is the best all around player in the country at the moment and was consistently very good so you certainly couldn't begrudge him. He wasn't putting in unbelievable performances though which is what you want from a hurler of the year. Callanan probably gave the best forward displpay I've ever seen against Galway but he wasn't half as good in the other games so don't think it would be fair to give it to him over TJ.

Young hurler of the year is a much more interesting one as there is a rake load of lads on both the Galway and Waterford teams that had great years. I'm hoping that they give it to Glynn or Gleeson seem as they lost out on an all star but doubt that will happen. Gleeson would be my choice but there is an element of bias there. Have the nominees been announced for this?

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/hurling-all-stars-kilkenny-and-galway-lead-nominations-1.2375016

As shown from the attached article; the nominations for young hurler of the year are Jason Flynn, Cathal Mannion (both Galway) and Tadhg De Burca (Waterford)

Flynn would be a deserving recipient imo

redlead

donnem33 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/hurling-all-stars-kilkenny-and-galway-lead-nominations-1.2375016

As shown from the attached article; the nominations for young hurler of the year are Jason Flynn, Cathal Mannion (both Galway) and Tadhg De Burca (Waterford)

Flynn would be a deserving recipient imo

Certainly wouldn't begrudge it to any of them. They were all excellent. I think they will give it to Mannion though, just have a hunch.

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Galway got 4 all stars. For a team that won nothing, I think they did pretty well.

Tipp 2014 vintage trump all others in that regard.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

Tipp 2014 vintage trump all others in that regard.

True enough. Don't think they had thhe nerve to argue for more though.

Mountainlad

Who was better than Tadhg Bourke wearing the 6 jersey this year? Ken McGrath, Brian Hogan and Ronan Curran was it, the lads mentioned earlier d? Cos Ive not seen anyone else mentioned with all those that have come out of the woodwork this week.

redlead

Mountainlad wrote: »

Who was better than Tadhg Bourke wearing the 6 jersey this year? Ken McGrath, Brian Hogan and Ronan Curran was it, the lads mentioned earlier d? Cos Ive not seen anyone else mentioned with all those that have come out of the woodwork this week.

Wearing no.6? Technically Gleeson was haha

Well done De Burca. Not only did he put in immense performances throughout the year but carried a huge amount of responsibility for such a young lad in such a young team. This year is the best I can remember for young players. There would have been so many other lads just deserving too.

Diabhal Beag

Jason Flynn winning nothing this year is poor form. Had a better year than Mannion imo.

Utopia Parkway

Mountainlad wrote: »

In the second Dublin game the game was over before Canning got his first goal. The first day he was poor, I'll allow for the hand affecting him but you can't give him an all star based on what he might have done if he was 100%.

And he was brutal against Cork, there's no two ways about that. So he had more opportunity to showcase what he could do and he failed to perform.

On the same basis that some Galway players benefitted from the exposure of 7 games, Canning rightly suffered on account of it. You can't have 3 poor games in a year, one of them being an all-ireland final

Was Canning poor in the All-Ireland final? I actually thought he had a really good first half. If that was a relatively unknown player then people would have been raving about some of the scores he took. Didn't have much of an impact in the 2nd half alright but Galway couldn't get enough ball into their full-forward line. And Joe was in there for the majority of it. Now maybe he should have been out the field looking for it but who knows what the instructions from management were? I think the missed free near the end that would have left 2 between the sides has left a bit of a black mark on his Summer. To be fair it was a bad miss alright.

I probably wouldn't have given a Joe an All-Star myself but there is a noticeable tendency for people to hold him to a higher standard than others.

Utopia Parkway

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Jason Flynn winning nothing this year is poor form. Had a better year than Mannion imo.

Hard to choose between them. Mannion was brilliant against Dublin, Cork and Tipp but anonymous twice against Kilkenny. Flynn was better in both games against Kilkenny. Mannion much better against Dublin and Cork while it was almost even steven against Tipp. An argument for both.

galwaylad14

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Hard to choose between them. Mannion was brilliant against Dublin, Cork and Tipp but anonymous twice against Kilkenny. Flynn was better in both games against Kilkenny. Mannion much better against Dublin and Cork while it was almost even steven against Tipp. An argument for both.

Mannian deserved it I think. As you said he was absolutely outstanding in the 3 games you mentioned but it's also worth mentioning that he was our best forward in the drawn game against Dublin too which is a game that seems like ages ago now. Got 3 points from play that day I think.

I think he was top scorer from play in the championship so would have been harsh if he didn't get it. He did have a bad final. Had he got even 1 point in the final I think there'd have been no arguments but even as it was he deserved it.

Canning is without question judged off a higher standard. He had a good year but certainly not one of his best years which is what he was judged off.

As someone else said, if you swapped Canning and Aylward's year, Aylward would definitely still have got the award and in my opinion that's wrong. These awards are not meant to be judged off the standard you set for yourself, they are meant to be given to the players that perform best in each position, regardless of what they have done in the past.

And I don't mean to be singling out Aylward, just I think he was arguably the weakest of the 6 forwards picked. He had a good year, I just believe Canning and actually probably Eoin Larkin were better. Larkin was brilliant this year.

I think the "softest" All Star in a way was for Joey Holden. I say "in a way" because I do actually think he was the best full back in the country this year and by that logic he deserves it, but I really didn't think it was a vintage year for full backs and I really think he wasn't all that good but just competition was virtually non-existent. I thought Canning easily had the beating of him in both the Leinster and All Ireland finals but he just didn't get enough right ball and Holden was able to get away with it.

Mountainlad

I don't see how Aylward would still have got the award, he barely did as it was. Was probably the one who got the narrowest vote of the 15. He scored 3-04 on his championship debut, got 0-4 points from play in an all ireland semi and got crucial scores in the other two games.

If he had hit 7 wides in a match he probably wouldn't even have started the next day.

Charlie69

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Mannian deserved it I think. As you said he was absolutely outstanding in the 3 games you mentioned but it's also worth mentioning that he was our best forward in the drawn game against Dublin too which is a game that seems like ages ago now. Got 3 points from play that day I think.

I think he was top scorer from play in the championship so would have been harsh if he didn't get it. He did have a bad final. Had he got even 1 point in the final I think there'd have been no arguments but even as it was he deserved it.

Canning is without question judged off a higher standard. He had a good year but certainly not one of his best years which is what he was judged off.

As someone else said, if you swapped Canning and Aylward's year, Aylward would definitely still have got the award and in my opinion that's wrong. These awards are not meant to be judged off the standard you set for yourself, they are meant to be given to the players that perform best in each position, regardless of what they have done in the past.

And I don't mean to be singling out Aylward, just I think he was arguably the weakest of the 6 forwards picked. He had a good year, I just believe Canning and actually probably Eoin Larkin were better. Larkin was brilliant this year.

I think the "softest" All Star in a way was for Joey Holden. I say "in a way" because I do actually think he was the best full back in the country this year and by that logic he deserves it, but I really didn't think it was a vintage year for full backs and I really think he wasn't all that good but just competition was virtually non-existent. I thought Canning easily had the beating of him in both the Leinster and All Ireland finals but he just didn't get enough right ball and Holden was able to get away with it.

Ok so Joe could have and should have (but didn't) given Holden a roasting in both games and therefore Holden wouldn't have gotten his "lucky" all star and poor Joe would have gotten the allstar he deserved, gotcha

galwaylad14

Charlie69 wrote: »

Ok so Joe could have and should have (but didn't) given Holden a roasting in both games and therefore Holden wouldn't have gotten his "lucky" all star and poor Joe would have gotten the allstar he deserved, gotcha

I didn't say that. I said Holden did deserve it but just that it certainly wasn't a vintage year for full backs.

I suppose what I'm saying is that Holden was a bit lucky as I do think he was there for the taking twice if the right ball was played in but that just didn't happen enough.

An example is probably what happened to Padraig Mannian against Tipp. Callanan got mountains of absolute top quality ball and he absolutely destroyed Mannian. I think something along those lines could easily have happened Holden on Joe had Joe got that sort of ball. As it was he didn't and Holden held him reasonably well both days, think he got 1-1 and 0-3 from play respectively off him.

But anyway that's irrelevant now because it didn't happen, just giving my opinion on it.

And as I said, if I was picking them I would have picked Holden at number 3 aswell so I'm not cribbing about his selection or anything, just raising the point.

68deville

After the Clare game in the league relagation final it was fairly obvious to the
KK management that if holden was isolated in any way he would be roasted
Through the championship he had a corner back literally beside anytime a
Remotely dangerous ball arrived near the square

dastardly00

68deville wrote: »

After the Clare game in the league relagation final it was fairly obvious to the
KK management that if holden was isolated in any way he would be roasted
Through the championship he had a corner back literally beside anytime a
Remotely dangerous ball arrived near the square

Was it not Paul Murphy who was marking Shane O'Donnell (who scored 1-3)?

citykat

68deville wrote: »

After the Clare game in the league relagation final it was fairly obvious to the
KK management that if holden was isolated in any way he would be roasted
Through the championship he had a corner back literally beside anytime a
Remotely dangerous ball arrived near the square

If he was that vulnerable and it was that obvious, how is it that neither of the Waterford and Galway management were able to capitalise on it?

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

If he was that vulnerable and it was that obvious, how is it that neither of the Waterford and Galway management were able to capitalise on it?

Couldn't find fault with him and would give him his all star, but given Waterford's depleted numbers up front who is you would detract from their performance on account of that similar to Tadhg Bourke. What's good for the goose...

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Couldn't find fault with him and would give him his all star, but given Waterford's depleted numbers up front who is you would detract from their performance on account of that similar to Tadhg Bourke. What's good for the goose...

You can't compare chalk with cheese. TdB didn't mark have to mark anybody in any match.

bruschi

citykat wrote: »

You can't compare chalk with cheese. TdB didn't mark have to mark anybody in any match.

really dont like this talk about De Burca as if he did nothing. He was the main man for Waterfords defence. He didnt have any one player to mark, he had more than that. He was the one who had to read the situation and pick up whatever spare man was coming through or was left. He had to marshal his players and ensure he was always available then to them as an outlet out of defence.

If it was so easy what he did, then why dont others do the same thing, or whay havent others won all stars doing the same thing. He was very effective in what is a very hard role to play in a team, regardless of people washing it off as being easy "because he had no one to mark". It is a tough role. Some players are not able for it. It's easier to have a defined role, ie just mark a player and clear the ball. But it is tougher when you have to mark no one but pick up everyone. where you have to keep in tight for the defence, but be out in space on the release. where you have to chip in with the attack, but stay in defence. There is a lot of instinct and thought into the role, and it's a shame to see some people dismiss it so easily.

savannahkat

bruschi wrote: »

really dont like this talk about De Burca as if he did nothing. He was the main man for Waterfords defence. He didnt have any one player to mark, he had more than that. He was the one who had to read the situation and pick up whatever spare man was coming through or was left. He had to marshal his players and ensure he was always available then to them as an outlet out of defence.

If it was so easy what he did, then why dont others do the same thing, or whay havent others won all stars doing the same thing. He was very effective in what is a very hard role to play in a team, regardless of people washing it off as being easy "because he had no one to mark". It is a tough role. Some players are not able for it. It's easier to have a defined role, ie just mark a player and clear the ball. But it is tougher when you have to mark no one but pick up everyone. where you have to keep in tight for the defence, but be out in space on the release. where you have to chip in with the attack, but stay in defence. There is a lot of instinct and thought into the role, and it's a shame to see some people dismiss it so easily.

The serious teams did not play a sweeper because they had the confidence not to have to resort to it and knew it was not a system to use if you are serious about winning the A.I.Who ever said he marked space and space did not score told more truth than anyone else on this topic.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

You can't compare chalk with cheese. TdB didn't mark have to mark anybody in any match.

Barry Coughlan 'held' Callinan to no score from play in the Munster final. There's your like for like comparison if you want.

I'd be inclined to give Tadhg Bourke far more credit for that than Coughlan. Maurice Shanahan was probably triple marked at times given the way Waterford and Kilkenny play.

citykat

bruschi wrote: »

really dont like this talk about De Burca as if he did nothing. He was the main man for Waterfords defence. He didnt have any one player to mark, he had more than that.

No he didn't. Waterford had so many men back, 7-8, TdB didn't have to mark anyone.

bruschi wrote: »

He was the one who had to read the situation and pick up whatever spare man was coming through or was left. He had to marshal his players and ensure he was always available then to them as an outlet out of defence.

That would be the least you would expect of somebody with a role free from the shackles of having to mark somebody.

bruschi wrote: »

If it was so easy what he did, then why dont others do the same thing,

Because WD were so blatant in this tactic this year.

bruschi wrote: »

or whay havent others won all stars doing the same thing.

I don't recall any other team playing a sweeper in such an overt manner. As for the all star selection, still scratching my head over that one...

bruschi wrote: »

He was very effective in what is a very hard role to play in a team, regardless of people washing it off as being easy "because he had no one to mark".

If you have basic ball control, you can play sweeper. Get the ball and hit it back down the field.

bruschi wrote: »

It is a tough role. Some players are not able for it. It's easier to have a defined role, ie just mark a player and clear the ball.

So marking an inter county forward is easier than playing sweeper? I beg to differ on that score.

bruschi wrote: »

But it is tougher when you have to mark no one but pick up everyone. where you have to keep in tight for the defence, but be out in space on the release. where you have to chip in with the attack, but stay in defence. There is a lot of instinct and thought into the role, and it's a shame to see some people dismiss it so easily.

Bottom line: a sweeper plays in space and has nobody to mark. Any player would put their hand up for that role.

Mountainlad

savannahkat wrote: »

The serious teams did not play a sweeper because they had the confidence not to have to resort to it and knew it was not a system to use if you are serious about winning the A.I.Who ever said he marked space and space did not score told more truth than anyone else on this topic.

Do Kilkenny play 15 on 15, man on man. Just interested to hear your thoughts.

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Barry Coughlan 'held' Callinan to no score from play in the Munster final. There's your like for like comparison if you want.

I'd be inclined to give Tadhg Bourke far more credit for that than Coughlan.

It would have been an achievement for Callinan to have scored from play that day given that TdB was playing 15 yds behind the FB all game.

Mountainlad wrote: »

Maurice Shanahan was probably triple marked at times given the way Waterford and Kilkenny play.

It was Wd who withdrew their forwards not Kilkenny. Kilkenny played the standard back line formation that day.

PTH2009

I wonder does Michael duignan have a problem with Waterford ??. He named a loaf of other players who should of got all-stars ahead of the Waterford guys

blue note

PTH2009 wrote: »

I wonder does Michael duignan have a problem with Waterford ??. He named a loaf of other players who should of got all-stars ahead of the Waterford guys

I always get the impression that he doesn't like Waterford to be honest. Especially back in the Davy days. I remember him going out of his way to say that Davy didn't shake hands with another manager after a game (RTE had to apologise after because he did shake hands) and I still laugh to myself thinking of a piece of analysis he did after Limerick and Waterford drew in 2009 in a terrible game in Thurles. He had a few clips of John Mullane fist pumping and celebrating a sideline (in fairness celebrating a sideline cut was a bit funny) and was giving them as examples of what's wrong with Waterford. John Mullane had score 4 of our 5 points from play that day and won most of our pointed frees. He was easily the best player on the pitch that day if memory serves me correctly and he's the one Duignan picked out to criticise!?!

But I think it's a bit of a Leinster bias with him. He always seems to be a massive Kilkenny fan in particular. But I think Davy and Waterford's style really seemed to rile him.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

It would have been an achievement for Callinan to have scored from play that day given that TdB was playing 15 yds behind the FB all game.



It was Wd who withdrew their forwards not Kilkenny. Kilkenny played the standard back line formation that day.

Larkin came deep, Fogarty dropped back and Joyce covered. Not a sweeper as such but they drop deeper than a 'traditional' 15 on 15. So in essence Holden had a soft enough time of it if we're being honest considering we only had two in the full forward line.

As I said, not taking away from him I wouldn't give the all star to anyone else but don't think there was any standout competitor. Just think you've tinted glasses when it comes to assessing the two.

For instance you would have praised Holden for holding Maurice Shanahan to 0-2 points from play, but when Coughlan held a better player to no score then it was easy. Neither Waterford player getting credit for that, even though Shanahan was being double marked in the same vein. Where is the logic in that?

Not sure what you're on about Bourke being behind Coughlan given he played the game in front of him, though would have covered if he got dragged out of position I guess.

Were you as critical at Pat Donnellan getting an all star in 2013 by the way? Because I can't remember the same level of debate myself to be honest.

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Larkin came deep, Fogarty dropped back and Joyce covered. Not a sweeper as such but they drop deeper than a 'traditional' 15 on 15. So in essence Holden had a soft enough time of it if we're being honest considering we only had two in the full forward line.

As I said, not taking away from him I wouldn't give the all star to anyone else but don't think there was any standout competitor. Just think you've tinted glasses when it comes to assessing the two.

For instance you would have praised Holden for holding Maurice Shanahan to 0-2 points from play, but when Coughlan held a better player to no score then it was easy. Neither Waterford player getting credit for that, even though Shanahan was being double marked in the same vein. Where is the logic in that?

Not sure what you're on about Bourke being behind Coughlan given he played the game in front of him, though would have covered if he got dragged out of position I guess.

Were you as critical at Pat Donnellan getting an all star in 2013 by the way? Because I can't remember the same level of debate myself to be honest.

Maurice was a more than worthy winner of an All Star this season. If McGrath had more faith in his forwards there could have been more.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

Maurice was a more than worthy winner of an All Star this season. If McGrath had more faith in his forwards there could have been more.

Absolutely but he's not better than Callinan.

Don't think we'd have beaten Kilkenny if we'd played 6 forwards but that's for another day.

JimboJones99

citykat wrote: »

No he didn't. Waterford had so many men back, 7-8, TdB didn't have to mark anyone.



That would be the least you would expect of somebody with a role free from the shackles of having to mark somebody.



Because WD were so blatant in this tactic this year.



I don't recall any other team playing a sweeper in such an overt manner. As for the all star selection, still scratching my head over that one...



If you have basic ball control, you can play sweeper. Get the ball and hit it back down the field.



So marking an inter county forward is easier than playing sweeper? I beg to differ on that score.



Bottom line: a sweeper plays in space and has nobody to mark. Any player would put their hand up for that role.

As a Kilkenny man, I think you are being a bit unfair on De Burca. If you ask a lot of inter county defenders which they would prefer, to man mark or play as a spare man, I guarantee a fair proportion of them would say man mark. I'm not saying I think it is easier to man mark than play as a sweeper but it certainly isn't for everyone. Not everyone is comfortable with having the responsibility of being the spare man and thus expected to be on the end of every ball.

There is also much more to a sweeper than just get the ball and hit it down the field. We are blessed in KK that our defenders generally have had that luxury because of our forwards ability to win primary possession (Even if we have had to change it a little in the past couple of years) but Waterford do not have that calibre of forward and so they cannot just hit it as far as they can and expect to win games. Therefore the onus was on De Burca to launch the attacks using clever ball and basically set up counter attacks as I said earlier, he was expected to be on the end of every ball. Therefore IMO not only was he one of Waterfords most important defensive players but also offensive players

For a 20 year old to be asked to take on this responsibility and perform it to the standard he did. I thought he deserved the all-star and YPOTY.