Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

getting a subsidy doesn't automatically mean a company isn't making a proffit, that subsidy is to run routes that are loss making but are vital to people in terms of transport needs.

Right. I suppose it's a convenient fantasy that allows workers to claim that they should paid more because their company is "profitable".

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

!0% of routes are open for private operators, none are interested.

hmmm

alcaline wrote: »

!0% of routes are open for private operators, none are interested.

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

And as result of the strike the 10% are still open to private operators,none want them.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Right. I suppose it's a convenient fantasy that allows workers to claim that they should paid more because their company is "profitable".

no, its fact. a subsidy is to run loss making routes. it has nothing to do with proffitability

hmmm wrote: »

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

in terms of the bus market, there is plenty of competition in the market where such competition is viable. CIE have never stopped it nor can they allow it as it has nothing to do with them. its up to competitors to come in and compete. however much of what CIE run simply isn't viable and therefore isn't going to attract competitors as its just not viable financially. the rail network due to its nature will not be able to have competition unless you want to build competing lines to every place served all ready, or 8 or more track everything.

hmmm wrote: »

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

it wasn't. it was to do with tendering.

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

so? staff should never be "overworked" at all.

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

alcaline

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

Sure why would you pay union dues if they did not look out for your best interests?

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

the rail network due to its nature will not be able to have competition unless you want to build competing lines to every place served all ready, or 8 or more track everything.

You know that's not how competition works on railways. The infrastructure remains the same, the operating companies compete to win the tender to run the railway. We don't require private bus companies to build their own motorways.

Wild Garlic

alcaline wrote: »

The are just good at their job and make it look easy

They make it look easy because it is easy. As long as they stay awake they are grand

end of the road

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

yes, and rightly so.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

It's ok, I understand why the CIE workers are desperately fighting against private competition, I would too in their place.

Wrong, CIE workers only wanted their pay and conditions safe, and they got that.
Privatise away, the private operators don't want the 10% now that they can't pay minimum wage.

Wild Garlic

alcaline wrote: »

Sure why would you pay union dues if they did not look out for your best interests?

Why indeed. The payment of union subs does not ensure competent representation.

alcaline

Wild Garlic wrote: »

They make it look easy because it is easy. As long as they stay awake they are grand

Try getting up before sunrise and staying awake , it aint easy, thats why only the best of the best get jobs in a CIE company.

Wild Garlic

alcaline wrote: »

Try getting up before sunrise and staying awake , it aint easy, thats why only the best of the best get jobs in a CIE company.

Up before sunrise. Ah the poor things. What a ridiculous argument when plenty do the same.. Best of the best? Really? It's Irish Rail not black ops ffs.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

You know that's not how competition works on railways.

no, because the railway cannot have competition unless it has a couple of lines to the same place. part of britains railway has some competition because of the nature of its network. it has either a couple of lines to the same city, or a other lines can allow them to get to the same destination via different towns. ireland has 1 line to each place served and thats it.

hmmm wrote: »

The infrastructure remains the same, the operating companies compete to win the tender to run the railway.

actually, unless the tender is done on quality of service alone, no they don't. i suspect it will be done this way "who can operate to our specs for the cheepist price" . that, isn't competition

Jamie2k9

alcaline wrote: »

There might be a few who are over paid, but not the majority. Can you give examples?
As for breaking up CIE, might be a good idea, the trains are loosing money, DB are in profit, don't know about BE.

Drivers are one category, particular the older ones, insane amounts of money and they want even more.....

no, they haven't. they have never been and never will be over payed

Rubbish, rates lower but not as low as private sector are needed.

Nor overworked

Good point I expect they are decent hours overall.

CIE was broken up in 1987 into BE IE DB. CIE is just a holding company now like translink is in the north.
trains for the most part will lose money but its worth it for what they provide. of course what is provided in ireland needs improvement and the politics toards certain lines because they were built by the wrong company needs to end

Get rid of the holding company and unions will have little to hide behind.

Nowhere is in profit, every one of the CIE companies receive an annual bailout/subvention from the taxpayer.

DB and BE make a profit last year and while they receive money I fully support it in most cases as some routes will never be viable commercially.

Hopefully in 2019 the unions will get the kick up the backside they need when Irish Rail hopefully won't be alone, hopefully the EU won't allow use to opt out.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

actually, unless the tender is done on quality of service alone, no they don't. i suspect it will be done this way "who can operate to our specs for the cheepist price" . that, isn't competition

It absolutely is. If there's a private company out there that can provide the same service at the required quality, and do it cheaper, they would get the contract.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Drivers are one category, particular the older ones, insane amounts of money and they want even more.....

its not insane money at all. train drivers will earn around that wage.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Rubbish, rates lower but not as low as private sector are needed.

not rubbish, the current rates are there for good reason. the private sector should actually be bumped up to near these rates TBH.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hopefully in 2019 the unions will get the kick up the backside they need when Irish Rail hopefully won't be alone, hopefully the EU won't allow use to opt out.

what kick up the backside. no kick up the backside is needed. the EU needs to allow us to opt out due to our railways unique circumstances, and because we would not be able to afford to insure attractiveness for these operators in my view.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

its not insane money at all. train drivers will earn around that wage.

It's worth noting time and time again that people from any of the state companies who post on here are always underpaid. but everyone else in the same company in a more senior role up the chain is always overpaid.

what kick up the backside. no kick up the backside is needed. the EU needs to allow us to opt out due to our railways unique circumstances, and because we would not be able to afford to insure attractiveness for these operators in my view.

What makes you think even if they did not have an opt out that they would comply with it? They don't really do so tnow in relation to delays, at times they don't even comply with their own customer charter.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

It's worth noting time and time again that people from any of the state companies who post on here are always underpaid. but everyone else in the same company in a more senior role up the chain is always overpaid.

what about those who don't work for a state company yet who understand why railway staff are payed the wage they are?

devnull

in terms of the bus market, there is plenty of competition in the market where such competition is viable. CIE have never stopped it nor can they allow it as it has nothing to do with them. its up to competitors to come in and compete.

Both me and you know it's not as simple as that. The PSO routes are protected from competition and no competitor may run on them as they won't get a license, and it would be very hard to compete with a company that has everything provided for them for free by the state anyway.

it wasn't. it was to do with tendering.

Which was due to the state companies actually having to compete with outside parties for contracts with the other companies able to actually have the same right to subsidy they don't now, levelling the playing field for PUBLIC transport, run for the benefit of the public.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

what about those who don't work for a state company yet who understand why railway staff are payed the wage they are?

The same people who moan that management are vastly overpaid and the drivers are not, despite the fact the driving staff are highly paid compared to other countries whereas the management are paid around the same? To me everyone in the whole organisation is overpaid because it delivers an abysmal customer hating service, and that is throughout the organisation.

The fact is that Irish Rail is a crap operation, the stations are unloved, out of date, passenger information is crap, handling of delays is crap, communication is abysmal, the whole organisation is a pathetic excuse for a railway operator that seems to hate most of it's passengers. If I had a passion for railways there's no way in hell I would work in such a company, the only reason I'd stay would be the generous pay.

I know people who have come from all over Europe and can't believe that Irish Rail can't even manage to get a PIS on a train working properly, don't bother to even announce delays or line problems if it's too early in the morning, staff don't care what is going on, fare evasion is rampant and the staff just sit there, stations are unstaffed in a capital city to let hooligans run loose, displays on platforms sit out of use for weeks on end, trains leave early for no reason, ticket machines stop accepting credit cards for full days at a time, broken glass stays at stations for weeks, staff show a hatred for customers and ignore their obligations under EU rules.

Then after all that abysmal level of service, the staff moan that they are only getting just over €55k on average. It's not that people have a problem with the fact that people are overpaid, it's the fact that many people are really pissed off that people in such a organisation that couldn't give two ****s about the customer and the people that use the service every day and shows contempt for it's customers on a daily basis, there are lots of people who are doing very well out of it and quite frankly that really grinds their gears. The fact Is Irish Rail fall woefully short on what we should expect from a rail operator in this country, and nobody should be raking it in whilst that is the case.

I was in London for two weeks recently and I never saw one train with a broken PIS, I saw pro-active announcements about even five minute delays, proper ticket inspections, stations properly staffed, security at statiosn even at late hours when they were unstaffed, a display failing in front of me in Paddington and a few hours later being replaced by a new screen (you could tell it was new since it was a lot brighter than the ones next to it), drivers helping a passenger with a wheelchair off a train when coming to a terminus, far more availability of detailed information on platforms, much more modern stations with better facilities, staff who actually wanted to help. One morning I arrived at a station just after 6am and already there was a notice board up saying the first few trains of the day were delayed due to an incident on the line overnight. If something happens before 7.30am on Irish Rail, forget about it.

The UK Rail system has many faults, but compared to Irish Rail it's heavenly particularly when it comes ot information on train, at stations and when it comes to proper revenue protection, attitude of staff and adequate staffing of stations. When it comes to delays and disruption, Irish Rail isn't even in the same league, league system, let alone same league.

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

what about those who don't work for a state company yet who understand why railway staff are payed the wage they are?

Well they are wrong

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

Both me and you know it's not as simple as that.

thats the thing. it is as simple as that.

devnull wrote: »

The PSO routes are protected from competition and no competitor may run on them as they won't get a license

they aren't viable for competition in the first place so technically not protected. no point in issuing licences for routes that have to be subsidised because they aren't viable.

devnull wrote: »

it would be very hard to compete with a company that has everything provided for them for free by the state anyway.

it wouldn't. the existing private operators all ready have their own depot facilities anyway surely. any new operator coming in to ireland would also ensure depot facilities, as they would surely want to undertake other operations apart from running tendered routes.

devnull wrote: »

Which was due to the state companies actually having to compete with outside parties for contracts with the other companies able to actually have the same right to subsidy they don't now, levelling the playing field for PUBLIC transport, run for the benefit of the public.

but there is nothing to compete for. there is a level playing field on the routes where competition is viable.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The same people who moan that management are vastly overpaid and the drivers are not, despite the fact the driving staff are highly paid compared to other countries whereas the management are paid around the same?

the drivers aren't vastly over payed compared to other countries. the most experienced ones will be payed at the higher end of the scale but thats the nature of train driving in general. i have no issue with management being payed what they are but i agree they aren't improving things, probably because they can't anyway. it would be no different whoever runs things, the railway will always be used as a political football

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Well they are wrong

well they aren't wrong, they are right

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

thats the thing. it is as simple as that.

No it's not actually, I know of several operators who were denied rights to run a service because it would be in conflict with a PSO service and PSO services are protected from any kind of direction competition. Those are the facts and the way the licensing system works, that is why nobody is taking the state operators on, on the PSO routes, but it would be hard to beat any PSO funded operator even if they did have those rights, because they'd have to pay for everything that DB gets for free.

they aren't viable for competition in the first place so technically not protected. no point in issuing licences for routes that have to be subsidised because they aren't viable.

You honestly think that every single PSO route makes a loss? If that is the case then it speaks volumes for how inefficient that the companies running them must be. Just because one company cannot make them pay doesn't mean another one can't

If no company could run a service or a product better or cheaper than another one, we may as well live in a communist state like North Korea. We should also nationalise supermarkets, and all types of shop, all airlines and have one company in every industry, since after all no company can offer things for a different rate or do it cheaper than the other can they?

The fact is in any industry a monopoly is bad for consumers. If you look at any industry, competition always brings prices down and the key is that the most important people in a public service are the public themselves, although the unions seem to think that that is not the case and that their members are the most important and their terms and conditions are.

The most ironic thing
Public Company = Run for the benefit of the public
Private Company = Run to the benefit of the people within the company.

The unions are representing staff of the Public Company, but their first concern is the welfare of the people within the company, whilst at the same time preaching that private companies are bad.

Basically it comes down to this. The unions are only too happy to moan about people making money out of a company and it being run for the benefit of management or shareholders and saying how it should be run for the benefit of the public and not for private gain. But on the other hand they only too happy to forget about the "benefit for the public" angle when something benefits them. Hypocrites.

it wouldn't. the existing private operators all ready have their own depot facilities anyway surely. any new operator coming in to ireland would also ensure depot facilities, as they would surely want to undertake other operations apart from running tendered routes.

They would have to pay for things that the current operators do not have to pay for. That is what makes me laugh about the unions arguing about having to bear "legacy costs" in the tender and how it was not fair, but at the same time wanting to retain their the infrastructure that they never paid for for their own sole use. that other companies have to pay for.

Again it's hypocritical. They're saying if we are worse off than the other party in any area, that is unfair on them and the playing field needs to be leveled, but if they hold an advantage in a certain area, they don't want to give that up. That is the worst thing in this country, the public come absolutely last.

There is a lot of stuff that Irish Rail do terrible. Crap communication, Passenger Information Displays on trains that never work. If the staff want to run a great service for the public, why don't they go on strike about these things and make the company and management and higher grades offer a better service to the public? They would have the public on their side and might get goodwill in later disputes. But they don't, because they couldn't care less abut the quality of the service or the passengers, all they care about is their pay and their terms and conditions, they couldn't give a **** about the diabolical level of service their company provides, as long as they are paid well.

but there is nothing to compete for. there is a level playing field on the routes where competition is viable.

It is not for the incumbent operator to say whether competition of viable, because of course they are not going to say there is, because they are looking after their own interests and in Ireland there is far too much of people looking after themselves rather than doing what is in the best interests of the public and the country. It's rampant in Irish society, that is why we have the country we do for a large part. Everyone is looking after themselves and no wonder our public services are in the state they are in and firmly back in the past compared to most other European countries,

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

the drivers aren't vastly over payed compared to other countries. the most experienced ones will be payed at the higher end of the scale but thats the nature of train driving in general. i have no issue with management being payed what they are but i agree they aren't improving things, probably because they can't anyway. it would be no different whoever runs things, the railway will always be used as a political football

The current level of service as provided by the company means that I think everyone is vastly overpaid in that company, because nobody deserves the salary they are getting in any grade because the service they provide is quite frankly ****e for the most part.

In the last two months there have been at least 3 passenger information displays at stations that have took a few weeks to replace, which is a clear breach of their own charter. Anytime there is a problem on the line before 7.30am, nobody knows what is going on because nobody is working in communications before 7.30. It's completely unacceptable.

It's not just about people being paid too much, the fact is that Irish Rail provide an awful service that almost seem to view transporting passengers or communicating with them as being a burden they simply don't want, if you are nice to them on twitter they are really nice to you back, but if you dare to complain you get short shift, fobbed off, or completely ignored.

The whole operation is supposed to be run for the benefit of the public, but you would swear the majority of the staff in the company hate the public. A lot of the things wrong with Irish Rail just need someone to care, but since the lack of care seems to be endemic on the organisation and the company seems to think it's accountable to itself rather than the public.

The impression to the outside world is Irish Rail staff are happy as long as they get the money they want and their own way and at the end of the day who cares what kind of service the public gets and for the current level of service that is provided, then the wage bill is vastly too high. If they offered a better service people would be less annoyed about the wage bill, but the fact is they don't and it really annoys people to see pay of that scale for a company which is failing in it's obligations to the public.

alcaline

devnull wrote: »

if you are nice to them on twitter they are really nice to you back, but if you dare to complain you get short shift, fobbed off, or completely ignored.

T

This is not CIE you are dealing with, it was a NTA idea and is handled by outside contractors.

Jamie2k9

alcaline wrote: »

This is not CIE you are dealing with, it was a NTA idea and is handled by outside contractors.

Really?

Irish Rail staff no?

alcaline

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Really?

Irish Rail staff no?

No, the twitter, Facebook are done by outside contractors.
People get angry at the wrong people, get angry at the people who actually do the twitter and Facebook and not the IE/DB/BE staff.