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Are cats one of the top predators in Ireland

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    #62
    OBaoghil.7
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭OBaoghil.7


    Zoo4m8 wrote: »
    True, which is why it's important that any action is taken not to a perceived threat to wildlife/livestock but only during or after an attack in which case any concerns about goodwill can safely be ignored..IMO anyway.

    As this thread is about cat predation in Ireland and we appear to have wandered into the realms of irresponsible dog ownership let me drag it back..I have only my own experience to fall back on but I rarely see a stray cat on my patch or on my neighbours lands, there is also no evidence of cats on my new patch or in the yard there.

    Some years ago a sheep farming neighbour asked me to dispose of three feral cats that had taken up residence in his sheds , he had no evidence of them killing birds and he never saw them about his fields, day or night ,but he had a Toxo problem with his sheep , a problem associated with cats as mentioned further up the page.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is if studies from ,say the UK show that cats take a large proportation of wildlife it doesn't have to follow that we with a much smaller population and therefore much smaller number of cats have ,even relatively speaking, the same problem..


    This is a good point. In the UK it's pet cats not Ferrell cats that are the problem. There is a huge population of pet cats in the UK that are out, especially at night when the owners are asleep, hunting for wild life. If you look in fields along the green belts of the UK at night you will see many cats eyes.


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    #63
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    the extinction of all of the larger native predators such as wolves, lynx and bears, .

    Going back a while there


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    #64
    Keplar240B
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Keplar240B


    Coyotes

    Coyotes tend to be associated with rural areas, where they have room to hunt and roam, but that has changed over time. Now they are increasingly present in suburban and urban areas and that has had a big impact on house cats and other pets. One study in Tucson, Ariz., found that cats were the most common part of a coyote's meal, accounting for 42 percent of their diet.
    Coyotes typically hunt for small critters, such as rabbits, mice and voles, but if given the opportunity they will happily make a meal out of a cat or small dog. As well, they also enjoy food that people leave out for their pets.

    We need to introduce the coyotes


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    #65
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Keplar240B wrote: »
    Coyotes

    Coyotes tend to be associated with rural areas, where they have room to hunt and roam, but that has changed over time. Now they are increasingly present in suburban and urban areas and that has had a big impact on house cats and other pets. One study in Tucson, Ariz., found that cats were the most common part of a coyote's meal, accounting for 42 percent of their diet.
    Coyotes typically hunt for small critters, such as rabbits, mice and voles, but if given the opportunity they will happily make a meal out of a cat or small dog. As well, they also enjoy food that people leave out for their pets.

    We need to introduce the coyotes

    In Ireland? Right! That's an environmentally secure and natural remedy.


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    #66
    Jayzesake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 392 ✭✭Jayzesake


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    Cats' presence here is unnatural to begin with, and with the extinction of all of the larger native predators such as wolves, lynx and bears, only humans can control their numbers.
    dodderangler wrote: »
    Going back a while there

    The point is that ecological systems do not function properly in the absence of a key trophic level, i.e. predators. Moreover, non-functioning ecosystems are far more vulnerable to the effects of invasive species, and here we have a perfect example of that. You can be sure that in areas that do retain their full complement of large native carnivores, predation by cats is not an issue.
    Keplar240B wrote: »
    We need to introduce the coyotes

    I presume Keplar240B is being slightly tongue-in-cheek here, but actually coyotes, and the study he cites (I imagine it's the same one I'm aware of), are very relevant to this. The study found a high correlation between, on the one hand, canyons where coyotes were present and a high diversity, and very healthy populations, of birdlife and, on the other hand, canyons where coyotes were absent and birdlife was highly impoverished.

    At first the reasons for this correlation were unclear, but it then became apparent that where coyotes were present, they were not only killing cats but discouraging them from coming into the canyons to hunt birds.

    The study was conducted by Michael Soule, who I mentioned earlier in this thread, and was quite influential in bringing an awareness of how vital predators are to a healthy ecosystem.

    Obviously the introduction of large native carnivores is off the cards in Ireland right now, but their absence is nonetheless an important aspect in understanding exactly why it is that cats, and other invasive species such as mink, can be so damaging to wildlife here.


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    #67
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Jayzesake wrote: »
    The point is that ecological systems do not function properly in the absence of a key trophic level, i.e. predators. Moreover, non-functioning ecosystems are far more vulnerable to the effects of invasive species, and here we have a perfect example of that. You can be sure that in areas that do retain their full complement of large native carnivores, predation by cats is not an issue.



    I presume Keplar240B is being slightly tongue-in-cheek here, but actually coyotes, and the study he cites (I imagine it's the same one I'm aware of), are very relevant to this. The study found a high correlation between, on the one hand, canyons where coyotes were present and a high diversity, and very healthy populations, of birdlife and, on the other hand, canyons where coyotes were absent and birdlife was highly impoverished.

    At first the reasons for this correlation were unclear, but it then became apparent that where coyotes were present, they were not only killing cats but discouraging them from coming into the canyons to hunt birds.

    The study was conducted by Michael Soule, who I mentioned earlier in this thread, and was quite influential in bringing an awareness of how vital predators are to a healthy ecosystem.

    Obviously the introduction of large native carnivores is off the cards in Ireland right now, but their absence is nonetheless an important aspect in understanding exactly why it is that cats, and other invasive species such as mink, can be so damaging to wildlife here.

    Several reintroduction of large predators across Europe have happened and perhaps Lynx to UK in near future. Will address the balance of over abundance of medium sized predator.


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    #68
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    It'll never happen in this country.
    Reintroducing predators like lynx and wolves will just end so bad for the animals. Farmers and any idiot with a gun are already at fault for the decline of our birds of prey


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    #69
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    dodderangler wrote: »
    It'll never happen in this country.
    Reintroducing predators like lynx and wolves will just end so bad for the animals. Farmers and any idiot with a gun are already at fault for the decline of our birds of prey

    That's true. The Country is probably one of the most backward when it comes to Wildlife protection. Reintroduced raptors are poisoned/shot. Species like Hen Harriers are shot and their breeding habitats destroyed. Even with benign creatures like Corncrake you have farmer's threatening to kill them, because of Land designations.


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    #70
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    dodderangler wrote: »
    It'll never happen in this country.
    Reintroducing predators like lynx and wolves will just end so bad for the animals. Farmers and any idiot with a gun are already at fault for the decline of our birds of prey

    Not to mention the lack of space, our national parks are just not big enough to accommodate such a release without having a negative impact on surrounding farms and people.

    Control of mid sized predators by humans is very effective, a new permission i got last year had a big fox population and they were very unhealthy, every one i was shooting had skin conditions and they were not in great shape, after a while they began to get healthier because of lack of competition for food and only the clever ones remained. When there is not big competition for food foxes and cats will be less of a problem and with foxes i wont ever shoot them all because i don't want to eradicate them, feral cats though id never pass if im honest


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    #71
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    aaakev wrote: »
    Not to mention the lack of space, our national parks are just not big enough to accommodate such a release without having a negative impact on surrounding farms and people.

    Control of mid sized predators by humans is very effective, a new permission i got last year had a big fox population and they were very unhealthy, every one i was shooting had skin conditions and they were not in great shape, after a while they began to get healthier because of lack of competition for food and only the clever ones remained. When there is not big competition for food foxes and cats will be less of a problem and with foxes i wont ever shoot them all because i don't want to eradicate them, feral cats though id never pass if im honest
    Control of fox numbers is inadequate in many important areas in the Country. I have a problem with foxes and could not get any body to shoot them consistently.


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    #72
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Control of fox numbers is inadequate in many important areas in the Country. I have a problem with foxes and could not get any body to shoot them consistently.

    Good help can be hard to find so i take your point but if you had someone reliable the problem would be solved. What problem are you having?


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    #73
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    aaakev wrote: »
    Good help can be hard to find so i take your point but if you had someone reliable the problem would be solved. What problem are you having?

    Breeding corncrake in my meadows. I got a lad to clear out fox dens twice, but so many foxes in area they are quickly replaced. Everyone I asked were more interested in shooting my greylag geese, jack snipe, snipe than in controlling foxes. I don't allow hunting except for foxes.


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    #74
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    That's true. The Country is probably one of the most backward when it comes to Wildlife protection.

    I don't think Ireland is exceptional in this regard. I don't want to down play the problem in any way but I think a lot of the problem is to do with how much the range of people and fauna overlap rather then Irish social attitudes. Look at Nordic countries, there is plenty of illegal killing of wolves, lynxes, bears, wolverines and golden eagles in these countries and although the numbers of people who kill these animals are small they have wide support rural areas. The only difference between the Nordic countries and Ireland is that they have big enough fauna populations to sustain such poaching (although perhaps not in the case of lynx, wolves and bears). My attitude must appear pretty defeatist.


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    #75
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    ^^^ fully agree. Our country is too small and in theory there's too much of a population of humans to allow a steady and healthy population of bigger predators such as wolves. Plus the entire country is almost cities towns or farmland so they wouldn't stand a chance. Not enough parks at all. Glenveagh is a big park but still not big enough to hold a healthy population of prey animals for packs of wolves or roaming big cats


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    #76
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Breeding corncrake in my meadows. I got a lad to clear out fox dens twice, but so many foxes in area they are quickly replaced. Everyone I asked were more interested in shooting my greylag geese, jack snipe, snipe than in controlling foxes. I don't allow hunting except for foxes.

    They must be all shotgun and dog men so! Id be the opposite, i love going out with the rifle and wouldn't shoot birds often, the shotgun is mostly used for ducks a few times a year.

    A few heavy weeks of shooting and then a trip out every few weeks should get it under control.

    What part of the country you in?


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    #77
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    dodderangler wrote: »
    It'll never happen in this country.
    Reintroducing predators like lynx and wolves will just end so bad for the animals. Farmers and any idiot with a gun are already at fault for the decline of our birds of prey

    That would be all farmers would it? And just the odd idiot with a gun...I don't see buzzards declining, I see sparrow Hawks almost daily , ten years ago it was a novelty to see one here...


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    #78
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Zoo4m8 wrote: »
    That would be all farmers would it? And just the odd idiot with a gun...I don't see buzzards declining, I see sparrow Hawks almost daily , ten years ago it was a novelty to see one here...

    I see them daily in my own area too, last Sunday we were being followed by 2 adults and 2 young buzzards, great to see. Never heard of any bop being shot or poisoned round here either


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    #79
    dodderangler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,204 ✭✭✭dodderangler


    Zoo4m8 wrote: »
    That would be all farmers would it? And just the odd idiot with a gun...I don't see buzzards declining, I see sparrow Hawks almost daily , ten years ago it was a novelty to see one here...

    Depends where you are in the country


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    #80
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    aaakev wrote: »
    I see them daily in my own area too, last Sunday we were being followed by 2 adults and 2 young buzzards, great to see. Never heard of any bop being shot or poisoned round here either

    4 buzzards poisoned and one shot in this county in the past 8 years.


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    #81
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Mod Note to everyone: No more blanket statements about hunters or farmers. If you're talking about raptor or predator persecution you can realistically only be referring to a minority of either group, but I expect you to make that clear in your posts.

    If you're talking about wildlife declines due to farming practices thats fair enough, but again make it clear in your post. This is and will continue to be a place for open discussion, but not a place for adversarial conflict and taking digs at whole groups.


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    #82
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    aaakev wrote: »
    They must be all shotgun and dog men so! Id be the opposite, i love going out with the rifle and wouldn't shoot birds often, the shotgun is mostly used for ducks a few times a year.

    A few heavy weeks of shooting and then a trip out every few weeks should get it under control.

    What part of the country you in?

    Outside belmullet nw mayo


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    #83
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Outside belmullet nw mayo

    Have you tried the hunting forum? Plenty of decent lads there who might be able to sort your fox problem


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    #84
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    aaakev wrote: »
    Have you tried the hunting forum? Plenty of decent lads there who might be able to sort your fox problem
    I did before. Too far from anybody it seems. Road along the entire length of farm, so would be a problem with shooting a lot of the time. Snaring would be the job.


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    #85
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    aaakev wrote: »
    Not to mention the lack of space, our national parks are just not big enough to accommodate such a release without having a negative impact on surrounding farms and people.

    Control of mid sized predators by humans is very effective, a new permission i got last year had a big fox population and they were very unhealthy, every one i was shooting had skin conditions and they were not in great shape, after a while they began to get healthier because of lack of competition for food and only the clever ones remained. When there is not big competition for food foxes and cats will be less of a problem and with foxes i wont ever shoot them all because i don't want to eradicate them, feral cats though id never pass if im honest

    What you were seeing ,as you probably know , was most likely mange , quite common in large malnourished populations of foxes. I have a pair here that don't bother me so I don't bother them, they help control the rabbit population with help from the buzzards especially when they have cubs. They rarely seem to bother the ground nesting birds, for instance I have never seen pheasant feathers at the den entrance. So I feel by leaving them alone, as they are so territorial , that the status quo is maintained and there is a reasonable balance with the assorted residents of my patch.
    Now back to the cats..cat flu is quite a virulent and contagious disease and will very quickly knock over a malnourished animal. I have seen it rampant in farmyards where cats are given the odd drink of milk and nothing else and are expected to make up the rest of their diet from rodents but if the rats and mice are gone the inevitable happens. So I'd assume it poses a real threat to feral cats and only those that escape it are the strongest and most successful so of course they do the most damage.
    Incidentally, sorry, back to foxes, my daughter in Camden London sent me a photo of a fox in her garden last week and asked me what was wrong with it..it was in the last stages of severe mange..there is a large number of foxes around the streets and gardens where she lives with a lot of interaction between them , will be interesting to see how soon others show with symptoms ...


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Taxburden carrier wrote: »
    If they were half as big as us we would be in danger of extinction !

    In Africa they are and humans did just fine


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    #87
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    I did before. Too far from anybody it seems. Road along the entire length of farm, so would be a problem with shooting a lot of the time. Snaring would be the job.

    Snaring is NOT the job..its inhumane and cruel..I have seen animals with horrendous injuries from snares, foxes and other predators just do what they are programmed to do, they shouldn't have to choke slowly to death at best or die over a number of days with, say , a noose tight round their stomach ... Road or no road a responsible person with a rifle is the proper way.


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    #88
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    aaakev wrote: »
    I see them daily in my own area too, last Sunday we were being followed by 2 adults and 2 young buzzards, great to see. Never heard of any bop being shot or poisoned round here either

    Likewise..


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    #89
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,658 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Zoo4m8 wrote: »
    Snaring is NOT the job..its inhumane and cruel..I have seen animals with horrendous injuries from snares, foxes and other predators just do what they are programmed to do, they shouldn't have to choke slowly to death at best or die over a number of days with, say , a noose tight round their stomach ... Road or no road a responsible person with a rifle is the proper way.

    By law snares must have stops to ensure non-target species can be released. Done properly it can be an effective method of fox control in certain situations. Fox cage traps are another option.


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    #90
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Zoo4m8 wrote: »
    Snaring is NOT the job..its inhumane and cruel..I have seen animals with horrendous injuries from snares, foxes and other predators just do what they are programmed to do, they shouldn't have to choke slowly to death at best or die over a number of days with, say , a noose tight round their stomach ... Road or no road a responsible person with a rifle is the proper way.

    All legal snares have a stop to prevent choking. Snares have to be checked every day. I would rather the foxes removed than have dead corncrake.


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    #91
    Zoo4m8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Zoo4m8


    I know this is a thread on cat predation in Ireland, but I'm not letting this one go particular on the off chance that someone might think it's a good idea to try snaring a nuisance cat..
    I hate snares, so called stop or not..have you ever seen the state of a fox that has been in a stop snare for ,say, ten hours? The hedge or ditch that it has been caught in will kook like a JCB has been at it ..I have seen foxes in stop snares with the nails and pads gone from their feet from hours of terrified digging in their efforts to escape..disgusting and inhumane..
    For what it's worth I have a fox cage trap you can have , it's homemade and works very well, if you arrange it's relocation from Wicklow to Mayo..


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