Are cats one of the top predators in Ireland

mick145

Where I live, which is the countryside, is mainly inhabited by rabbits, small birds, hedgehogs, hares and all kinds of small rodents which are basically defenceless against mine [and other] pet cats which often roams the fields surrounding my house and hunts these animals often leaving a Rather nice trophy at my front door which could consists of one the mentioned above..

This kinda got me thinking weather you would consider a cat to be one of the top apex predators in the Irish countryside. Now I know a cat wouldn't have much chance against a fox or perhaps even a mink but when you think of how little native dangerous wildlife actually live in the Irish countryside.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

In a word, Yes.

endacl

Second only to the human. Or the house spider.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

endacl wrote: »

Second only to the human. Or the house spider.

As far a the number of species and individuals taken are concerned, humans don't come close if we are talking predators - their influence on Nature is a different thing to predation. House spider? Seriously?

endacl

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

As far a the number of species and individuals taken are concerned, humans don't come close if we are talking predators - their influence on Nature is a different thing to predation. House spider? Seriously?

T'was tongue in cheek. Chill.

Jayzesake

Cats - domestic and feral - are extremely destructive to wildlife, not only in Ireland but all over the world, particularly to smaller birds and mammals. The most important thing to understand about them is that they should really be seen as an effect, or extension, of humans, in the sense that they have been introduced into practically every environment by us, and domestic cats are constantly maintained in those environments by us, through feeding, the shelter we give them, etc.

I have heard cats described as 'subsidised recreational hunters' (I think it was conservation biologist Michael Soule), which is pretty apt.

dodderangler

Would put the mink ahead of a feral cat.
Mink would do a lot more damage in a hen house I reckon.
But as far as cats go I've been told and I agree that cats are worse than foxes

Taxburden carrier

If they were half as big as us we would be in danger of extinction !

freedominacup

Magpies and hooded crows are causing plenty of damage to smaller birds and some endangered species. We have a pair of choughs here who have failed to rear a chick for the past three seasons. Got one almost to fledgling this year but I found the chick dead beneath the nesting platform we put up for them in early June. Their nests were destroyed the previous two seasons.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

freedominacup wrote: »

Magpies and hooded crows are causing plenty of damage to smaller birds and some endangered species. We have a pair of choughs here who have failed to rear a chick for the past three seasons. Got one almost to fledgling this year but I found the chick dead beneath the nesting platform we put up for them in early June. Their nests were destroyed the previous two seasons.

But, that's natural.

syklops

I'll just leave this here

Manach

So our cat friends/overlords saved us from those plotting birds.

dodderangler

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

If they were half as big as us we would be in danger of extinction !

And if my aunt had balls she'd be me uncle
We still have the firepower as humans and the technology to deal with it. Sad but true

Mickeroo

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

But, that's natural.

Cats have been around for so long as to be considered natural at this stage imo.

Quazzie

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

If they were half as big as us we would be in danger of extinction !

Plenty of them are, and they're still nearly going extinct.

syklops

Mickeroo wrote: »

Cats have been around for so long as to be considered natural at this stage imo.

The sheer amount of them is the thing that is unnatural I think.

OpenYourEyes

Obviously the fact that we brought them here in the first place is the most unnatural thing about it all, but the continuing problem is that they aren't subject to any sort of selection pressure at all - we give them food and shelter. They go out and hunt and kill stuff and often don't eat it. If they go out and fail to kill something, that's no problem because they can just go to a nearby house and get looked after. Even 'feral' cats live off stealing food from more domesticated cats, or from other food sources left out by humans. The situation with cats in most countries is thoroughly unnatural and problematic in my opinion.

An argument could be made for many species brought to places like Ireland by humans hundreds and thousands of years ago in that they've established themselves here and now play a similar role to what they do in their native range, and are subject to the same population dynamics as 99% of the other species here - but that's not the situation with cats.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Mickeroo wrote: »

Cats have been around for so long as to be considered natural at this stage imo.

No way. They are a domesticated animal. They are in countries where they would never be naturally. They are in numbers far exceeding what would have been if they were wild. They do not need to kill to survive at all. Far from nature, indeed.

Jayzesake

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

The situation with cats in most countries is thoroughly unnatural and problematic in my opinion.

That's more than just an opinion: it's a concrete fact.

Cats are just another one of the many ways in which we as a species are destroying the natural world everywhere.

dodderangler

Jayzesake wrote: »

That's more than just an opinion: it's a concrete fact.

Cats are just another one of the many ways in which we as a species are destroying the natural world everywhere.

If it's such a concrete fact then why aren't we allowed to shoot them as vermin?

Jayzesake

dodderangler wrote: »

If it's such a concrete fact then why aren't we allowed to shoot them as vermin?

For a start, cat owners might object to having their pets shot to death.

Seriously though, very few people realise just how highly destuctive cats are ecologically, and that high level of ignorance would make it very difficult to change the situation for now, at least here in Ireland.


In Australia, feral cats are officially classed as vermin in all of the territories:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/24/sorry-brigitte-bardot-but-australias-hordes-of-feral-cats-have-got-to-go


While in New Zealand, there is a campaign to have the right to eradicate domestic cats if they stray, but surprise, surprise, the animal rights people are vehemently opposed to the idea. Presumably they are more concerned with the cats than the millions of animals killed by the cats, and aren't interested in - or able to comprehend - the wider ecological picture.

In an interview with New Zealand’s 3 News, Morgan said that cats “just love killing things – and that’s your cat we’re talking about.”

“Your cat does a lot of damage. If you want to love your cat, that’s fine, keep him in your house,” Morgan told the station.
“If you let him onto my property, I want the right to trap that cat and get rid of it,” the businessman added, saying he would rather have native birds and other animals on his land instead.

Bob Kerridge, chief executive of the country’s Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, told the New Zealand Herald newspaper that the idea of getting rid of cats was “a bit radical, over the top and completely wrong.”

"People consider cats to be a member of the family. So he's trying to, quite frankly, take away the civil liberties we all have to choose who we want in our home,” he told the paper, and questioned some of Morgan’s claims about cats’ effects on wildlife.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/23/16657915-natural-born-killer-campaign-demands-eradication-of-cats-from-new-zealand?lite

Eddie B

dodderangler wrote: »

If it's such a concrete fact then why aren't we allowed to shoot them as vermin?

Truth is that cats are our top predator! Have you ever watched one hunting! It's amazing how these brightly coloured cats can catch their pray using sheer stealth, and speed! They can even catch birds in mid air a couple of feet off the ground!

Thing is, us humans are allowed keep these cats, no need to licence them, and we dont even have to keep them on our premises! How convenient!:mad:

I think if we had the same laws for cats as dogs, there'd be a lot less cats in the world!

On the hunting cats thing! Think ferral cat numbers can be controlled, but not quote unquote pet cats!

dodderangler

Still doesn't answer my question. Why can't we shoot them?
And IMO cats aren't pets. They come and go when they please

OpenYourEyes

dodderangler wrote: »

Still doesn't answer my question. Why can't we shoot them?
And IMO cats aren't pets. They come and go when they please

Who would be willing to campaign for a change in protection for cats to allow shooting them, and how strongly do they feel about them?

Who would be willing to campaign to maintain the current level of protection for cats, and how strongly do they feel about them?

Now imagine you're a politician or political party and tell me if you'd be likely to have cats listed as vermin?

In addition - and correct me if I'm wrong - but for 'vermin' don't they have to be having a negative impact on some sort of crop or asset? So really and truly that's only going to be chickens - the small mammals and birds in your garden wouldn't count under that. So even if they were listed as vermin it wouldn't mean it would be 'open season' on them and unlikely to make a significant dent in their populations.


As someone said above, I think cats should be subject to similar restrictions as owning dogs. You should have a license, they should have a collar, and they should be kept indoors at night. Anything else should be controlled and/or disposed of by the state until the situation is under control. Wishful thinking I know.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

dodderangler wrote: »

Still doesn't answer my question. Why can't we shoot them?
And IMO cats aren't pets. They come and go when they please

As far as I recall, cats have no protection under Irish law.

OpenYourEyes

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

As far as I recall, cats have no protection under Irish law.

Presumably they fall under animal cruelty legislation though? And presumably that frowns upon shooting them?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Presumably they fall under animal cruelty legislation though? And presumably that frowns upon shooting them?

Quite possibly but I think no more so than Mice or Rats. Cruelty in law can be very vague and I never heard of killing by shooting described as cruelty. All that said, shooting is not the answer. Neutering and control are the keys.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Bonedigger wrote: »

I think you and your hunting buddies are already doing that. Am I right or wrong?

I haven't met a hunter yet who didn't openly admit to shooting any cat they come across in the countryside at night.

aaakev

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

I haven't met a hunter yet who didn't openly admit to shooting any cat they come across in the countryside at night.

Iv shot loads, there was a big feral cat colony in an area i hunt and the sheep farmer that owns the land had a huge problem with toxoplasmosis. When i come across a feral ill shot it

Eddie B

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

I haven't met a hunter yet who didn't openly admit to shooting any cat they come across in the countryside at night.

I hunt myself, and although I have no love for cats, i've never shot one!

A lot of farmers keep cats to keep rodents down, so a Hunter could lose his permission if he done something like that, but I'm sure you have people who don't care either way!

OpenYourEyes

Mod Note: Discussion of hunting and hunters is ok, but keep it civil. No namecalling, no subtle digs - just civil and open discussion.

Riverireland

Mod Edit: Banned for a week for backseat moderation. If you have a problem with a post you report it or message a Mod, you don't go onto the thread and tell a Mod what to do.

Riverireland

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Obviously the fact that we brought them here in the first place is the most unnatural thing about it all, but the continuing problem is that they aren't subject to any sort of selection pressure at all - we give them food and shelter. They go out and hunt and kill stuff and often don't eat it. If they go out and fail to kill something, that's no problem because they can just go to a nearby house and get looked after. Even 'feral' cats live off stealing food from more domesticated cats, or from other food sources left out by humans. The situation with cats in most countries is thoroughly unnatural and problematic in my opinion.

An argument could be made for many species brought to places like Ireland by humans hundreds and thousands of years ago in that they've established themselves here and now play a similar role to what they do in their native range, and are subject to the same population dynamics as 99% of the other species here - but that's not the situation with cats.

Or cows or sheep, pigs, chickens, horses, dogs etc etc. seriously!!!

aaakev

Riverireland wrote: »

I think it's your fellow moderator aaakev, you need to be watching regarding his comments. Absolutely disgusting going out shooting cats!!!

Just because you don't agree doesn't make it disgusting. Have you any idea the damage unchecked feral cats can do? Shooting is a very humane way to deal with the problem

By the way, im not going around shooting pet cats, these are wild feral cats

Jayzesake

Riverireland wrote: »

I think it's your fellow moderator aaakev, you need to be watching regarding his comments. Absolutely disgusting going out shooting cats!!!

If, as is often the case, shooting is the only way to control or eliminate a population of an invasive species that is wiping out native species on an industrial scale, as cats are doing in many places, then it is anything but disgusting: it is the only responsible and ethical thing to do.

Of the 29 native species made extinct in Australia in the last 200 years, cats have been responsible for all but 9, and dozens more are at risk. The Australian government plans to control their numbers by shooting 2 million of them.

To my mind, it would be far more disgusting, cowardly and irresponsible to stand by and do nothing, particularly as it was us who introduced cats there and everywhere else.

aaakev

Jayzesake wrote: »

If, as is often the case, shooting is the only way to control or eliminate a population of an invasive species that is wiping out native species on an industrial scale, as cats are doing in many places, then it is anything but disgusting: it is the only responsible and ethical thing to do.

Of the 29 native species made extinct in Australia in the last 200 years, cats have been responsible for all but 9, and dozens more are at risk. The Australian government plans to control them by shooting.

To my mind, it would be far more disgusting, cowardly and irresponsible to stand by and do nothing.

A lot of people have blinkers on when it comes to cats and i get that, i have a pet cat im quite fond of too, but, she is kept in at night and early in the morning when birds are in their nests and is aloud out in our garden under supervision during the day. We got her neutered as soon as she was big enough and she never goes where we cant see her.

But feral cats are different and people need to realise that, they are not the cute pets they know. I think people doing TNR have their hearts in the right place but their not using their heads, releasing a cat back into the wild only kills more native wildlife. Their time would be better spent trapping and and euthanising. There were so few birds especially ground nesting ones in the area where i shot a load of ferals, now the place is alive. The difference is amazing!

syklops

Cecil the Feral cat?

aaakev

syklops wrote: »

Cecil the Feral cat?

Shot by a poacher not a hunter

Jayzesake

aaakev wrote: »

There were so few birds especially ground nesting ones in the area where i shot a load of ferals, now the place is alive. The difference is amazing!

You probably didn't realise it at the time, but you were engaged in an act of restoration ecology. Well done.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

aaakev wrote: »

Shot by a poacher not a hunter

And hardly comparable nor relevant.

aaakev

Jayzesake wrote: »

You probably didn't realise it at the time, but you were engaged in an act of restoration ecology. Well done.

I was just asked to take care of the problem by the landowners, they lost a load of lambs to toxoplasmosis and the vet who came out to check the herd said it was because of the cats. The lads said there was never cats around until about 4 years previous, they were either a few dumped or strays that set up shop then multiplied as cats do so efficiently.

It took a couple of years before it changed but it was worth it, rabbits are starting to make a comeback now too, don't remember seeing one before the cats were taken care of.

I think they are the top predictor in Ireland simply because of their numbers, mink would be worse but the numbers just aren't there (thankfully) to cause as much damage

syklops

Aubrey Stocky Tungsten wrote: »

And hardly comparable nor relevant.

I was referring to the poster earlier who considered shooting feral cats to be cruel and usual.

Perhaps my position wasn't clear, I am all for the culling of feral cats.

magicbastarder

one thing that has always bugged me about the reporting on the damage cats do is that (from what i've seen, which may not be representative) they tend to focus on the number of birds/rodents killed by cats; but this does not account for the disruption a cat may cause in terms of preventing nesting/breeding etc.

i've always found the notion odd that a neighbour's cat can come into my garden and kill as many of the garden birds i am trying to feed/attract, as it wants; and theoretically i can take no action other than deterrence.
we have a cat, but she's a housecat and has not been outside the house in over six years.

Birdnuts

dodderangler wrote: »

If it's such a concrete fact then why aren't we allowed to shoot them as vermin?

Feral cats can be legally shot - just like any other feral animal such as goats etc.. However it is of course important to ensure the animal is indeed feral and ownerless from a legal standpoint.

OBaoghil.7

mick145 wrote: »

Where I live, which is the countryside, is mainly inhabited by rabbits, small birds, hedgehogs, hares and all kinds of small rodents which are basically defenceless against mine [and other] pet cats which often roams the fields surrounding my house and hunts these animals often leaving a Rather nice trophy at my front door which could consists of one the mentioned above..

This kinda got me thinking weather you would consider a cat to be one of the top apex predators in the Irish countryside. Now I know a cat wouldn't have much chance against a fox or perhaps even a mink but when you think of how little native dangerous wildlife actually live in the Irish countryside.

I remember reading an interesting article about this subject quite some years ago. Apparently cats have been very popular throughout the world and have been killed "en masse" for many reasons. More recently it seems, they were killed for their perceived association with witchcraft and millions were slaughtered throughout Europe. The study claimed that the cat population has more than recovered in Europe to the extent that they (cats) are now having a serious negative impact on wildlife. I am not sure if this would be specifically relate to us here in Ireland? The Ferrell cats do a good job around the farms etc I suppose there are more private dwellings with pets cats now and despite being well fed still enjoy the kill.

ThunderCat

OBaoghil.7 wrote: »

I remember reading an interesting article about this subject quite some years ago. Apparently cats have been very popular throughout the world and have been killed "en masse" for many reasons. More recently it seems, they were killed for their perceived association with witchcraft and millions were slaughtered throughout Europe. The study claimed that the cat population has more than recovered in Europe to the extent that they (cats) are now having a serious negative impact on wildlife. I am not sure if this would be specifically relate to us here in Ireland? The Ferrell cats do a good job around the farms etc I suppose there are more private dwellings with pets cats now and despite being well fed still enjoy the kill.

With the absence of a feral cat around a farm, presumably the local fox would do a decent job of killing rodents around a farm too?

Mickeroo

ThunderCat wrote: »

With the absence of a feral cat around a farm, presumably the local fox would do a decent job of killing rodents around a farm too?

Cats much less likely to go for livestock though like chickens or young lambs.

Capercaillie

Hunting cats in the long road will never control numbers. The way forward would be to develop a virus that would selectively kill domestic/feral cats. Pet owners could vaccinate their cats, everything else would die.

Zoo4m8

Birdnuts wrote: »

Feral cats can be legally shot - just like any other feral animal such as goats etc.. However it is of course important to ensure the animal is indeed feral and ownerless from a legal standpoint.

Exactly, and IMO from a human point of view as well, there is no point in causing distress by disposing of somebody's cherished pet that has just happened to have wandered through the hedge..

Capercaillie

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

Exactly, and IMO from a human point of view as well, there is no point in causing distress by disposing of somebody's cherished pet that has just happened to have wandered through the hedge..

Shooting pet's is a good way of losing any goodwill in protection of endangered wildlife/livestock.

junospider

In a study done in england,they concluded that over 70% of all wildlife killed,was killed by cats!