Teacherslookup.com & Data Protection legislation

rainbowtrout

gaiscioch wrote: »

No, you are creating strawmen in full knowledge that the issue here is that a state database has so incompetently handled private information that it has been pilfered by a commercial organisation beyond Irish law, which now controls it. That is why this thread exists; the thread was not established in reaction to the database per se. Assuming that English is your first language you are fully cognisant of what this is all about. Yet you proceed with your strawmen. Why?

Even with your strawmen, you haven't presented any legal defence for your decidedly strange idea that all 300,000 public servants do not have a right to privacy regarding their place of employment, profession, and other details. Despite numerous requests, you refuse to answer this. Why?

It's not private information. Anyone can go to the TC website and get that information at any time, and they have been able to do so for years. They have been handling this information in much the same way for a long time, it's causing ructions now because another website is copying the information.

Why is there no kerfuffle about the fact that the TC database has been publicly searchable for years? There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.

gaiscioch

rainbowtrout wrote: »

it's causing ructions now because another website is copying the information.

Why is there no kerfuffle about the fact that the TC database has been publicly searchable for years? There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.

We've been through this many times now. The difference, once again, is that the TC results did not appear in a Google search. These do. Somebody had to know your profession, and the existence of the TC website before. Now, for most people here a simple google will find their profession, place of employment and other details in the control of a US firm with a comments section underneath for any anonymous person to make comments about an identifiable teacher - none of which is covered under Irish privacy laws thanks to TCI incompetency with our personal information. None of this was the case before. That is the very understandable reason why there is a kerfuffle now.

gaiscioch

katydid wrote: »

I have no problem with teachers' details being publicly available on the TC website.

After this negligence, you've got to be kidding. Anybody else who now has a problem with trusting the Teaching Council would be very easy to understand. It's one thing the data being tucked away on their website, quite another when they allow it to be mined by a private foreign company beyond Irish law which has a comments section for anonymous people to attack named Irish teachers' reputations. This was never in any deal.

katydid wrote: »

I have a problem with them being available unautorised on a commercial website.

It's impossible not to connect the incompetency of the Teaching Council with the control of this data by a private US company. One cannot object to the latter, while supporting the former given that the latter would never have the data without the ineptitude of the Teaching Council.

rainbowtrout

gaiscioch wrote: »

We've been through this many times now. The difference, once again, is that the TC results did not appear in a Google search. These do. Somebody had to know your profession, and the existence of the TC website before. Now, for most people here a simple google will find their profession, place of employment and other details in the control of a US firm with a comments section underneath for any anonymous person to make comments about an identifiable teacher - none of which is covered under Irish privacy laws thanks to TCI incompetency with our personal information. None of this was the case before. That is the very understandable reason why there is a kerfuffle now.

I can't honestly see why it's TC incompetency. The method of looking for information hasn't changed for years. Why haven't you had a problem with being searchable on their database since 2007? Granted it didn't come up in a google search, but it was still public information.

Graham

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There's no point worrying about teacher lookup if you are OK with the same information being available from the TC, it's still in the public domain.

There is a world of difference between somebody visiting the Teaching Council of Ireland website for the purpose of checking an individuals credentials and someone casually searching for anything at all relating to the same individual.

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

After this negligence, you've got to be kidding. Anybody else who now has a problem with trusting the Teaching Council would be very easy to understand. It's one thing the data being tucked away on their website, quite another when they allow it to be mined by a private foreign company beyond Irish law which has a comments section for anonymous people to attack named Irish teachers' reputations. This was never in any deal.



It's impossible not to connect the incompetency of the Teaching Council with the control of this data by a private US company. One cannot object to the latter, while supporting the former given that the latter would never have the data without the ineptitude of the Teaching Council.

I would really appreciate if you would read what I write and not extrapolate things from it which I did not say.

I said I have no problem with the TC publishing the information. I did NOT say that I don't have a problem with the TC not securing this information so it can't be mined wholesale.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

There is a world of difference between somebody visiting the Teaching Council of Ireland website for the purpose of checking an individuals credentials and someone casually searching for anything at all relating to the same individual.

Indeed. And the chances of a person casually searching for anything relating to an individual coming across a reference to this website is fairly unlikely.

gaiscioch

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can't honestly see why it's TC incompetency. The method of looking for information hasn't changed for years. Why haven't you had a problem with being searchable on their database since 2007? Granted it didn't come up in a google search, but it was still public information.

First, it's TC incompetency because it did not protect our data from being mined by a private foreign corporation - something it could, and should, have done technically. Second, the data was only breached recently by this firm, which now controls it beyond Irish data protection legislation. It was not breached in 2007 or any other year. The difference for one's privacy between coming up in a Google search and not coming up in a Google search can be massive, which is why there have been very many high profile privacy cases against Google across Europe. That is why.

Graham

gaiscioch wrote: »

The initial query to the Data Protection Office was answered and they said they can't do anything about the data now as this new site is outside Irish law.

It would be interesting to hear the Data Protection Commissioners position on the Google indexing of this data. Even if the data is on a site outside of Irish Law, I would imagine Google results returned within Ireland are well within the remit of the DPC.

This data is only of value to the 3rd party site because Google is including it within its search results. If Google were to remove all references to this 3rd party site the site instantly becomes almost worthless.

Rather than a Data Protection complaint about TCI or Teachers Lookup, it might be worth submitting a data protection complaint about Google making this data available.

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

First, it's TC incompetency because it did not protect our data from being mined by a private foreign corporation - something it could, and should, have done technically. Second, the data was only breached recently by this firm, which now controls it beyond Irish data protection legislation. It was not breached in 2007 or any other year. The difference for one's privacy between coming up in a Google search and not coming up in a Google search can be massive, which is why there have been very many high profile privacy cases against Google across Europe. That is why.

So let's get this clear. You have had no problem with the date being available on the TC website for the past 8 years, right? But you have a problem with them not ensuring no one else could mine the information.

Is that correct?

I agree with you so far, if this is the case.

evolving_doors

has anyone here looked up the data protection commission site yet?

1. We know the data is public. Is there such a thing as 'more' or 'less' public? Google search vs' TC site search is still public. So I think the privacy issue is lost... and believe me, google won't do nothing going on crazy cases I've heard. So lets just assume that ratemyteachers has set the bar and move on, that ain't goinna change.

2. Look at how the data was 'handled' by the TC... is there a transfer abroad issue maybe? See here.

If a data controller can point to one or more of the following eight alternatives, then the transfer of personal data to the third country may proceed:

(viii) the personal data to be transferred are an extract from a statutory public register, i.e. a register established by law as being available for public consultation, or as being available for consultation by persons with a legitimate interest in its contents. In the latter case, the transfer must be made to a person having such a legitimate interest, and subject to compliance by that person with any relevant conditions

Comment: It is permissible to make personal data, derived from a public register, available in a third country. It is not permissible to transfer the whole of such a register to a third country. If a statutory register is available for inspection by persons demonstrating a legitimate interest, then this condition – and any other conditions – must be fully complied with before the personal data can be made available.

3 Maybe the data has been altered in some way! HERE

3. Where an incident gives rise to a risk of unauthorised disclosure, loss, destruction or alteration of personal data, in manual or electronic form, the data controller must give immediate consideration to informing those affected.[3] Such information permits data subjects to consider the consequences for each of them individually and to take appropriate measures.In appropriate cases, data controllers should also notify organisations that may be in a position to assist in protecting data subjects including, where relevant, An Garda Síochána, financial institutions etc.

Dunno folks, I think the best anyone can do is make a complaint to the DPC but backed by the relevant Breach of Practice. Forget about contacting google.

Graham

Gebgbegb wrote: »

has anyone here looked up the data protection commission site yet?

1. We know the data is public. Is there such a thing as 'more' or 'less' public? Google search vs' TC site search is still public. So I think the privacy issue is lost... and believe me, google won't do nothing going on crazy cases I've heard. So lets just assume that ratemyteachers has set the bar and move on, that ain't goinna change.

2. Look at how the data was 'handled' by the TC... is there a transfer abroad issue maybe? See here.


3 Maybe the data has been altered in some way! HERE

I'm still looking through past cases to see how this particular rule has been implemented in the past:

1.9 What is the position in relation to personal data already in the public domain?

Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts provides that the Acts do not apply to personal data consisting of information that the person keeping the data is required by law to make available to the public. A key point here is that the exemption from data protection requirements only relates to the information in the hands of those public bodies that are obliged to make it available. Any other entity seeking to use such information once in the public domain must comply with the standard requirements of data protection.

I do know (first-hand) that the DPC has advised organisations to block content from being indexed by Google, I suspect it is at least partly because of this section of the DP Acts.

evolving_doors

Graham wrote: »

I'm still looking through past cases to see how this particular rule has been implemented in the past:

1.9 What is the position in relation to personal data already in the public domain?

Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts provides that the Acts do not apply to personal data consisting of information that the person keeping the data is required by law to make available to the public. A key point here is that the exemption from data protection requirements only relates to the information in the hands of those public bodies that are obliged to make it available. Any other entity seeking to use such information once in the public domain must comply with the standard requirements of data protection.

Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

I think the only thing left for the TC to redeem themselves is to put in a truckload of false info to poison the well.

beveragelady

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

I think the only thing left for the TC to redeem themselves is to put in a truckload of false info to poison the well.

That might be the only option but it's not very reassuring. Unless they add forty nine Beverageladies, all of whom work at different schools, a quick search will still give somebody my work address.

Graham

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye but ratemeteachers trumps that. They were another entity that's allowed 'carry on' regardless of where they got the info.

I'm not sure where ratemyteachers got its initial data from, do you know if it came from the same source or is the data (specifically the teachers names) contributed by the users?

r93kaey5p2izun

Graham wrote: »

I'm not sure where ratemyteachers got its initial data from, do you know if it came from the same source or is the data (specifically the teachers names) contributed by the users?

It's contributed by the users. Names are regularly misspelled or totally wrong. They often don't know first names. Students names are also often listed as teachers

RealJohn

katydid wrote: »

No, I didn't provide any evidence for it. It's just common sense; as a public servant, working in a capacity where you are interacting with the public on a daily basis, I see no reason not to have one's basic details in relation to one's job listed.

No, I'm not having that. You don't get to claim that "It's just common sense", especially when you've already asserted that when someone else made a claim that they should have to back it up. You're failing to meet your own standard here. Either back up your claim or state that it is your own (largely valueless) opinion with no basis in law (or common sense for that matter).

katydid wrote: »

If your students, their parents etc. have the right to have access to that information, why not future prospective students and their parents? Why not the general public? You are in a job with a public profile - you stand up in front of hundreds of people every day.

I've already said that prospective students and their parents (probably) are. Let them go into the school and ask.
As for the general public, explain to me why they should be entitled to this information. If they have no connection with the school, either currently or in the fairly immediate future, what possible reason does Mary McGrath next door have for knowing where I work?
Also, I am not in a job with a "public profile". I'm in a job where I "stand up in front of" the same "hundreds of people every day" in what is absolutely not a public setting. The school has CCTV. Do you think that should be streaming live online every day too, since you seem to think that the school is a public place which should be accessible to the general public? Maybe I should have a live webcam feed in my classroom too so that the general public can sit in on my lessons, unless it's convenient for them to pop in in person and take part in the classes, since I'm public property after all?

katydid wrote: »

If a bunny boiler wants to find you, she will...

So why should we be making things easier?

Graham

Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »

It's contributed by the users. Names are regularly misspelled or totally wrong. They often don't know first names. Students names are also often listed as teachers

Thanks Alaia Gifted Rodeo, that's what I was hoping as it may mean Section 1 (4) (b) of the Data Protection Acts applies for Teacherslookup even if it doesn't apply to ratemy teacher.

katydid

RealJohn wrote: »

No, I'm not having that. You don't get to claim that "It's just common sense", especially when you've already asserted that when someone else made a claim that they should have to back it up. You're failing to meet your own standard here. Either back up your claim or state that it is your own (largely valueless) opinion with no basis in law (or common sense for that matter).

I've already said that prospective students and their parents (probably) are. Let them go into the school and ask.
As for the general public, explain to me why they should be entitled to this information. If they have no connection with the school, either currently or in the fairly immediate future, what possible reason does Mary McGrath next door have for knowing where I work?
Also, I am not in a job with a "public profile". I'm in a job where I "stand up in front of" the same "hundreds of people every day" in what is absolutely not a public setting. The school has CCTV. Do you think that should be streaming live online every day too, since you seem to think that the school is a public place which should be accessible to the general public? Maybe I should have a live webcam feed in my classroom too so that the general public can sit in on my lessons, unless it's convenient for them to pop in in person and take part in the classes, since I'm public property after all?

So why should we be making things easier?

Just because your job isn't streamed live on tv doesn't mean it's not a job with a public profile. The fact that you stand up in front of hundreds of people a day means you are visible and in the public eye. Not to the same degree as, say, a politician, but nevertheless in the public eye. Your name is known, your workplace is known, your gender is known. So establishing these facts from a professional register is hardly a breach of your privacy.

I don't disagree that the website teacherlookup is unethical; it is not acceptable that a person searching for you can just type in your name and the first - and apparently only - result in some cases is a link to this kind of information. But there is a clear distinction between information being available on the TC website and the same information being available elsewhere.

katydid

beveragelady wrote: »

That might be the only option but it's not very reassuring. Unless they add forty nine Beverageladies, all of whom work at different schools, a quick search will still give somebody my work address.

So your problem is not with teacherlookup.com but with the TC. So why are you complaining now, when this information has been in the public domain for the past eight years?

gaiscioch

For the person on the thread who still isn't getting the difference, or indeed understands it well but is trying to bait posters with stupidity, here's an explanation that was given to another poster:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96667450&postcount=189

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

For the person on the thread who still isn't getting the difference, or indeed understands it well but is trying to bait posters with stupidity, here's an explanation that was given to another poster:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96667450&postcount=189

Don't be so hard on yourself. The difference is quite clear, if you think about it logically.

RealJohn

katydid wrote: »

Just because your job isn't streamed live on tv doesn't mean it's not a job with a public profile. The fact that you stand up in front of hundreds of people a day means you are visible and in the public eye. Not to the same degree as, say, a politician, but nevertheless in the public eye. Your name is known, your workplace is known, your gender is known. So establishing these facts from a professional register is hardly a breach of your privacy.

Why not stream my classroom live though, since you think I'm public property? Are you going to answer any questions or are you just going to keep deflecting them?
I am known to a relatively small number of people - my name and workplace are known to my students and their parents. In a private sector company, my name and workplace would also be known to my clients who, depending on the type of work, might also number in the hundreds but, given that your argument is that because I'm a public sector worker I'm not entitled to the same level of privacy, why should that be different?
Also, you're changing your position. I don't think many people (if anyone) is objecting to some information being available on the TC website. The objection is to this private, unregulated website publishing our details in such a way that they now turn up on a Google search, if they've gotten around to adding you to their site (which they haven't yet in some cases it seems but no doubt will in the future unless something is done).

katydid wrote: »

I don't disagree that the website teacherlookup is unethical; it is not acceptable that a person searching for you can just type in your name and the first - and apparently only - result in some cases is a link to this kind of information. But there is a clear distinction between information being available on the TC website and the same information being available elsewhere.

This is what people are objecting to though so if you agree, why are you arguing?

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Why not stream my classroom live though, since you think I'm public property? Are you going to answer any questions or are you just going to keep deflecting them?
I am known to a relatively small number of people - my name and workplace are known to my students and their parents. In a private sector company, my name and workplace would also be known to my clients who, depending on the type of work, might also number in the hundreds but, given that your argument is that because I'm a public sector worker I'm not entitled to the same level of privacy, why should that be different?
Also, you're changing your position. I don't think many people (if anyone) is objecting to some information being available on the TC website. The objection is to this private, unregulated website publishing our details in such a way that they now turn up on a Google search, if they've gotten around to adding you to their site (which they haven't yet in some cases it seems but no doubt will in the future unless something is done).

This is what people are objecting to though so if you agree, why are you arguing?

Because it's illegal to film employees in the workplace, whether they are private sector or public sector workers.

You're not known to a small number of people, you are known to hundreds if not thousands most likely.

If you take a fairly typical secondary school of 400 students with an intake/outgoing of about 80 students per year. You are known to all of those students and their parents. You are known to anyone that student points you out to when you are wheeling your trolley around Tesco at the weekend. If you are working in a relatively small town, you can be damn sure that the whole town know who you are even if you have never taught any of their children and have no connections with the school. The local postman knows what subjects you teach.

In the town I work in I can go into a local pub and the bar staff can tell me who is permanent and who is part time and who got screwed out of a CID in my school. They can tell me who is on maternity leave and they are aware that there was a problem getting a French/Irish/Geography sub. These are people who don't have kids and have no connections to the school.

I've often said jokingly to friends that working in a school has led to a crime free life because everyone in town knows who I am and knows my movements.


I had a courier deliver a parcel to my house about 5 years back. He had a delivery in a business in town that I have no business with. He asked them if they knew me because I was his next delivery. They were not only able to tell him where I lived but also where I worked in case I wasn't home and what I taught. Btw, I'm a blow in so it's not like I've lived around these parts all of my life. People only know who I am because of my job.

I definitely don't see myself as a private individual as a teacher.

evolving_doors

Thread open.
Address the issue in posts rather than posters please.


MOD.

evolving_doors

anyone anymore thoughts?

mariaalice

Interesting enough I am married to someone who someone who has very little online presents and is very careful about it, he wont fully join LinkedIn and has only were he went to university, his chartered status and where he works now nothing about other jobs he has had or anyone thing else, he does not have a Facebook account, nor has he joined any groups online, in fact all he does online( except for work ) is check his emails and booking flights.

We often have discussion about this and he cant give me rational explanation of why he is like this except that he likes his privacy, however the way I see it is why would anyone be looking him up except maybe a work situation, people are not going around looking up random people and what exactly are they going to find.

evolving_doors

mariaalice wrote: »

Interesting enough I am married to someone who someone who has very little online presents and is very careful about it, he wont fully join LinkedIn and has only were he went to university, his chartered status and where he works now nothing about other jobs he has had or anyone thing else, he does not have a Facebook account, nor has he joined any groups online, in fact all he does online( except for work ) is check his emails and booking flights.

We often have discussion about this and he cant give me rational explanation of why he is like this except that he likes his privacy, however the way I see it is why would anyone be looking him up except maybe a work situation, people are not going around looking up random people and what exactly are they going to find.

It's the same as some random person sticking up your picture and/or details on every telegraph pole up and down the country... except you can't take any of them down!

expectationlost

story in sunday times tmw presumably about this john burns @JohnBurnsST https://twitter.com/JohnBurnsST/status/655500538512089088
Sunday Times News: Irish teachers' details are posted on a searchable American website, which allows users to comment; by @marktigheST

expectationlost

a new message from the teachers council http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/News-Events/Latest-News/Update-on-Data-Security-re-Teaching-Council-Register.html

Websites such as this depend on a sufficient number of clicks and visits to generate advertising. Therefore the more visits it receives, the higher the revenue and the higher the search result appears. For these reasons, we think that the best approach is not to encourage more visits to this website and to limit the attention it gets.

....we messed up don't highlight it, don't report it

on vft https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/1062667627107243

https://www.facebook.com/VoiceForTeachers/posts/1062667627107243?comment_id=1063366283704044&offset=0&total_comments=115&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R9%22%7D

all a bit late now

Over the last number of months the Council has carefully monitored the situation and is satisfied that the unauthorised copying of data has not reoccurred. The Council is committed to maintaining the integrity of all systems and the data contained within these systems and will continue to update the systems to ensure that best practice security measures are implemented.

The Council placed an information notice regarding this matter on the Teaching Council website in July. The notice references the fact that the information is publically available information taken from the published “Register of Teachers” as distinct from the private personal information held by the Council. The rationale for this is to reassure teachers that the private held information was not impacted or accessed by a third party. This notice also points out that by law the public must have access to the Register of Teachers and the “Search the Register” facilitate is used to fulfil this legislative requirement.