Teacherslookup.com & Data Protection legislation

gaiscioch

aunt aggie wrote: »

Thinking about this some more, it may highlight situations where teachers are teaching subjects they aren't actually qualified in. Yes, all this information is readily available on teaching council website but as someone mentioned, that won't appear in search engine results. Now it might.

That's the important distinction with this website (which I mentioned in the op!): the results will appear for the first time in a simple Google search. That information on the TC website cannot be found via a simple basic Google. You must go to the TCI website specifically to look for it. This is the start of their project. How long before we have employment histories, exam results and so forth on the spurious grounds that the public have a right to know all this about public servants.

gaiscioch

Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »

The TC have a note about this on their website. They have introduced a captcha system to search the register since this happened - why they didn't have one before is anyone's guess. They have a new note about the information being copyright also.

Here's that Teaching Council notice:

Notice for registered teachers

(15 Jul 2015)
The Teaching Council has a legal responsibility to publish some information from the Register of Teachers, and this is done on www.teachingcouncil.ie using the Search the Register facility. Each teacher has access to his/her individual records that are held on the Register of Teachers which can be accessed via the Teacher Login facility. These additional records are not made available to the public.

The Council is aware that some of the publicly available information has been copied and presented on http://ie.teacherslookup.com/.

This happened without the authorisation of the Council, and the Council does not approve of information from the Register of Teachers being presented in this way.

The Council has notified the Data Protection Commissioner on this matter and continues to work on best practice security measures in relation to protecting the personal data it has a duty to publish. The Council has also sought legal advice on the matter and, as the website is hosted outside of this jurisdiction, is working with the relevant authorities to pursue its legal rights and obligations in this matter.

The Council understands that some teachers are concerned about this. The Council wishes to reassure teachers that the private information on the Register of Teachers is secure. The information copied by teacherslookup.com is information that is available to the public on the Council's website.

First, at least they're admitting it. Second, it's nothing short of extraordinary that they did not store this data in a way that it couldn't be mined - particularly as they wisely took the technical advice that ensured teachers' details did not appear when you did a Google search for their name (in the last sentence of the above statement it could have been a bit more frank on this difference).

evolving_doors

gaiscioch wrote: »

Here's that Teaching Council notice:



First, at least they're admitting it. Second, it's nothing short of extraordinary that they did not store this data in a way that it couldn't be mined - particularly as they wisely took the technical advice that ensured teachers' details did not appear when you did a Google search for their name (in the last sentence of the above statement it could have been a bit more frank on this difference).

Its all very nuanced as the info is public ... to an extent. Id be interested to see where it goes though as I think the TC would have some onus to keep your details safe, by letting another company mine that info and compile it I would argue that its changing the original propose of the data.
I googled my name and theres only 3 of me in this country, the other two goofballs are definitely not me... and definitely not teachers. Agreeing to put up FB page or linkedin is one thing but someone else putting up my presence for money is another... but then again we're into the whole ratemyteachers thing again.
What the TC should have done is added in a lot of extra bogus names, schools and numbers.

beveragelady

Somebody mentioned above that anybody searching for my name would find a gang of potential Beverageladies. I'm no Zowie Bowie but my name is fairly unusual. Googling it used to yield a lady in Argentina who was clearly of the wrong generation and ethnic origin to be me, another lady who died the year I was born, and a bunch of half-hits (first name or last name but not both.)
That's not really the point though. I don't want that sort of information to be searchable on the net and I think it's reasonable to have an expectation that a quango like the TC would not facilitate a site like teacherslookup.com.
Now my work address is visible within one click of typing my name. The TC needs to be held accountable for playing fast and loose with our details. I mean really, nobody holds them accountable for what they do with our money...

gaiscioch

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Its all very nuanced as the info is public ... to an extent. Id be interested to see where it goes though as I think the TC would have some onus to keep your details safe, by letting another company mine that info and compile it I would argue that its changing the original propose of the data.
I googled my name and theres only 3 of me in this country, the other two goofballs are definitely not me... and definitely not teachers. Agreeing to put up FB page or linkedin is one thing but someone else putting up my presence for money is another... but then again we're into the whole ratemyteachers thing again.
What the TC should have done is added in a lot of extra bogus names, schools and numbers.

The highlighted parts would be my (non-legal) view also. It would be interesting to see what they might think about it over in the Legal Discussion forum.

gaiscioch

beveragelady wrote: »

Somebody mentioned above that anybody searching for my name would find a gang of potential Beverageladies. I'm no Zowie Bowie but my name is fairly unusual. Googling it used to yield a lady in Argentina

Beveragelady is Evita!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUPdnzCAk8

gaiscioch

beveragelady wrote: »

That's not really the point though. I don't want that sort of information to be searchable on the net and I think it's reasonable to have an expectation that a quango like the TC would not facilitate a site like teacherslookup.com.
Now my work address is visible within one click of typing my name. The TC needs to be held accountable for playing fast and loose with our details. I mean really, nobody holds them accountable for what they do with our money...

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

Graham

These two links might be worth a look to ask Google to remove specific search results about you:

https://forget.me

https://support.google.com/legal/contact/lr_eudpa?product=websearch

Forget me is free and apparently walks you through submitting a removal request to Google.

If I were to submit such a request to Google I would be explaining that the information linked to was illegally obtained from a professional certification register, information that was only ever provided to be used by/on that specific professional register.

beveragelady

gaiscioch wrote: »

Beveragelady is Evita!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUPdnzCAk8

Right. Well thanks very much Gaiscioch. My cover is blown, I'll be packed up and gone by morning. Back into hiding, with nothing but my patriotic fervour for all things Argentinian to sustain me in the long lonely years ahead. Argentina may not cry for me but I can still cry for Argentina.

Still, it means I don't have to go back to school in a week or two like all you other losers...:cool:

katydid

beveragelady wrote: »

That's not really the point though. I don't want that sort of information to be searchable on the net and I think it's reasonable to have an expectation that a quango like the TC would not facilitate a site like teacherslookup.com.
Now my work address is visible within one click of typing my name. The TC needs to be held accountable for playing fast and loose with our details. I mean really, nobody holds them accountable for what they do with our money...

But it is already available on the net, through the TC website. Available to anyone in the world with a simple click of the mouse. Unless the TC make it unavailable, any individual or website can access the material freely. If you have a gripe, it's with the TC, not this particular website.

And if it was made unavailable, the public would rightly question why teachers weren't being open and transparent.

You're in the wrong job if you want to hide away.

katydid

aunt aggie wrote: »

Thinking about this some more, it may highlight situations where teachers are teaching subjects they aren't actually qualified in. Yes, all this information is readily available on teaching council website but as someone mentioned, that won't appear in search engine results. Now it might.

Why might it? The only date available to the public, via the TC site, is name, gender, full or part time status and name of workplace. Only data available to the public can be mined.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

But it is already available on the net, through the TC website. Available to anyone in the world with a simple click of the mouse. Unless the TC make it unavailable, any individual or website can access the material freely. If you have a gripe, it's with the TC, not this particular website.

And if it was made unavailable, the public would rightly question why teachers weren't being open and transparent.

You're in the wrong job if you want to hide away.

When it comes to personal data, there's a big difference between making something available through a specific website and having something generally available in Google search results. One is available to anyone that specifically requires the information, the other is open to general web trawling for an individual.

That's not my personal opinion, that's the view taken by the Data Protection commissioner. It's why most Irish sites that publish similar information tag the web pages to exclude them from Google (using robots.txt files).

Add to that the fact that the data was illegally obtained from TC and republished without permission and you have a good case to ask Google to remove links to that information from its search results.

gizmo555

katydid wrote: »

Why might it? The only date available to the public, via the TC site, is name, gender, full or part time status and name of workplace. Only data available to the public can be mined.

It is a long-established principle that just because information is required to be made publicly available, does not necessarily mean that it's acceptable to publish it en masse on a website.

There are many public bodies that have been directed to stop doing this. Most recently the Data Protection Commissioner threatened enforcement action against the Minister for Social Protection if the birth, marriage and death records which had been made available on the irishgenealogy.ie website weren't taken offline.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/data-chief-considered-stopping-use-of-sensitive-information-1.2309198

katydid

Graham wrote: »

When it comes to personal data, there's a big difference between making something available through a specific website and having something generally available in Google search results. One is available to anyone that specifically requires the information, the other is open to general web trawling for an individual.

That's not my personal opinion, that's the view taken by the Data Protection commissioner. It's why most Irish sites that publish similar information tag the web pages to exclude them from Google (using robots.txt files).

Add to that the fact that the data was illegally obtained from TC and republished without permission and you have a good case to ask Google to remove links to that information from its search results.

They are BOTH available to any member of the public; all they have to do is type "Teaching Council" into Google, and they are brought to the site where they just type in the person's name.

I do understand that the method of obtaining such data is questionable, but the main gripe people seem to have is that can be found on a simple google search. My point is that that is the case no matter what.

How can it be illegal to obtain data that is publicly available?

katydid

gizmo555 wrote: »

It is a long-established principle that just because information is required to be made publicly available, does not necessarily mean that it's acceptable to publish it en masse on a website.

There are many public bodies that have been directed to stop doing this. Most recently the Data Protection Commissioner threatened enforcement action against the Minister for Social Protection if the birth, marriage and death records which had been made available on the irishgenealogy.ie website weren't taken offline.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/data-chief-considered-stopping-use-of-sensitive-information-1.2309198

Fair enough. But people were complaining that the info is available by a simple google search. MY point is that you don't need this extra website for that, you can just search the TC website. Their gripe is with the TC in this regard.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

They are BOTH available to any member of the public; all they have to do is type "Teaching Council" into Google, and they are brought to the site where they just type in the person's name.

I do understand that the method of obtaining such data is questionable, but the main gripe people seem to have is that can be found on a simple google search. My point is that that is the case no matter what.

How can it be illegal to obtain data that is publicly available?

It is not illegal to obtain it, that is not what I said.

I'll explain it again.

Publishing the information on the Teaching Council website makes that information directly available to anyone who has a specific need for it.

Making that information available in Google search results makes that information available to anyone doing a general web trawl for a specific individuals name.

rainbowtrout

Graham wrote: »

Add to that the fact that the data was illegally obtained from TC and republished without permission and you have a good case to ask Google to remove links to that information from its search results.

Graham wrote: »

It is not illegal to obtain it, that is not what I said.

I'll explain it again.

But that's exactly what you said.

Graham

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But that's exactly what you said.

I'll clarify, obtaining the collection of information compiled by a 3rd party and republishing it on another website at the very least breaches copyright law and data protection law.

Katydid is correct to say that people should have issue with the TC website and anyones who has had their personal information re-published has good cause to lodge a complaint with the data protection commissioner.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

Katydid is correct to say that people should have issue with the TC website and anyones who has had their personal information re-published has good cause to lodge a complaint with the data protection commissioner.

Well, what I said was that IF they have a gripe, it's with the TC website. Personally, I don't think that they have good cause to complain about the data being available on the TC website, since they are public servants and this data should be available. The information is, and should be, available at the click of a mouse.

If they have a complaint about the data being available on another website, that has nothing to do with the TC.

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

That's the important distinction with this website (which I mentioned in the op!): the results will appear for the first time in a simple Google search. That information on the TC website cannot be found via a simple basic Google. You must go to the TCI website specifically to look for it. This is the start of their project. How long before we have employment histories, exam results and so forth on the spurious grounds that the public have a right to know all this about public servants.

I tried googling my own name and that of several of my colleagues, who would have, if not unique, at least unusual names. In no case did this website come up in a google search; what DID come up was a link to our college website moodle site, with that teacher's name and role.

The TC information can be found by a simple two step search. Google the TC, then click the search tab

Graham

katydid wrote: »

Well, what I said was that IF they have a gripe, it's with the TC website. Personally, I don't think that they have good cause to complain about the data being available on the TC website, since they are public servants and this data should be available. The information is, and should be, available at the click of a mouse.

If they have a complaint about the data being available on another website, that has nothing to do with the TC.

I don't think being a public servant is the slightest bit relevant, public servants have the same rights to privacy and data protection as any other individual.

Information can be made available to the public where necessary without making that same information widely publicly available. This is where the TC website failed in its duties. There should have been measures in place to prevent the wholesale scraping of the data. At the same time, techerslookup had/have no right to re-publish that data.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

I tried googling my own name and that of several of my colleagues, who would have, if not unique, at least unusual names. In no case did this website come up in a google search; what DID come up was a link to our college website moodle site, with that teacher's name and role.

There are 18,900 pages in Googles index for a search term containing the Irish section of that website, hopefully Google have already started to de-list the results.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

It is not illegal to obtain it, that is not what I said.

I'll explain it again.

Publishing the information on the Teaching Council website makes that information directly available to anyone who has a specific need for it.

Making that information available in Google search results makes that information available to anyone doing a general web trawl for a specific individuals name.

You said "the data was illegally obtained from TC and republished without permission".

The bottom line is that the information is available through google, one way or the other. It takes two clicks to move from a google search to the TC website.

Someone has claimed that in a straight google search an individual's name will come up in connection with this other website. I have done an experiment with my own name (I am the only teacher by that name on the TC register) and with the names of five of my colleagues - again, names of which there is only one entry on the TC register.

Not one came up in a basic google search in connection with this other website we're discussing. What DID come up was our names in connection with the college Moodle site, with information as to what department we are connected with. More information than on the TC site.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

I don't think being a public servant is the slightest bit relevant, public servants have the same rights to privacy and data protection as any other individual.

Information can be made available to the public where necessary without making that same information widely publicly available. This is where the TC website failed in its duties. There should have been measures in place to prevent the wholesale scraping of the data. At the same time, techerslookup had/have no right to re-publish that data.

Of course we have a right to data protection. And our date is protected. The only information in the public domain is my name, the place I work, my gender and the fact that I am full time status. Since I am paid by the public purse, I don't see why that information shouldn't be available.

Certainly publicly available information should be presented in such a way that it can't be mined en masse, but I'm not sure if that's technically possibly while at the same time allowing easy public access. At the end of the day, the issue is with this other website, and the issue of the legality of mining information in the way it did, but it is not the fault of those whose information is being mined.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

You said "the data was illegally obtained from TC and republished without permission".

Please notice the importance of the AND.

katydid wrote: »

The bottom line is that the information is available through google, one way or the other. It takes two clicks to move from a google search to the TC website. .

The point is you have to move to the TC website so you're unlikely to fall over the information while doing a random search for a person.

katydid wrote: »

Not one came up in a basic google search in connection with this other website we're discussing. What DID come up was our names in connection with the college Moodle site, with information as to what department we are connected with. More information than on the TC site.

That's nice, you may want to take it up with your college if you don't wish that information to be made public.

Regardless of your opinion Katydid, there was a breach of data protection laws when that information was taken and republished, people have a right to be annoyed over it and to ask how it's going to be rectified and/or prevented in the future.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

Certainly publicly available information should be presented in such a way that it can't be mined en masse, but I'm not sure if that's technically possibly while at the same time allowing easy public access.

It is technically possible.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

It is technically possible.

Fair enough, then steps should be taken to do so.

But, as I said, the information is still publicly available, which is what many people seem to have a problem with. As of now, it's easily available with two clicks of a mouse. And Google does NOT lead you directly to this other site.

katydid

Graham wrote: »

Please notice the importance of the AND.



The point is you have to move to the TC website so you're unlikely to fall over the information while doing a random search for a person.



That's nice, you may want to take it up with your college if you don't wish that information to be made public.

Regardless of your opinion Katydid, there was a breach of data protection laws when that information was taken and republished, people have a right to be annoyed over it and to ask how it's going to be rectified and/or prevented in the future.

I have no problem with that information being available. I work in the public service, every student I teach knows who I am, there is no reason whatsoever that this information should not be available.

If you go to the TC website, you will straight away find the person if you type their name in the search register box.

I am not talking about the republishing of information. I am talking about the claim that a simple Google search will bring you straight to this alternative website - try it with the name of any teacher you know and you will see what I mean. And I am taking issue with anyone who has a problem with the TC having this basic information available.

Graham

katydid wrote: »

I have no problem with that information being available. I work in the public service, every student I teach knows who I am, there is no reason whatsoever that this information should not be available.

If you decide your information should be available, that is your right and there's nothing to prevent you from making that choice.

katydid wrote: »

I am not talking about the republishing of information. I am talking about the claim that a simple Google search will bring you straight to this alternative website - try it with the name of any teacher you know and you will see what I mean.

The information is in Googles index, that generally means it is on it's way to appearing in search results or it's in the process of being de-listed. Time will tell.

katydid wrote: »

I am taking issue with anyone who has a problem with the TC having this basic information available.

I can understand why some people see it as unnecessary, there's an argument that Teaching staff have already been vetted by their employers and as such there is no benefit to opening up the information to a wider audience.

implausible

This is a very interesting debate i.e. does being a public servant mean a lower level of privacy? I would argue that our job, by definition, means that we are in the public eye, but I can understand the unease about being easily found on Google, when you may not have been before.

On a related note, I'm curious - do posters' school websites list their staff members with or without photos? Do posters avoid appearing in school photos, at school events or when bringing groups away, when photos may subsequently appear in the local paper?