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Nissan Leaf

  • #2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,623 ✭✭✭ Balmed Out


    Ok im posting here because I want the perspective of people who arent necessarily pro electric cars.

    My 05 Mazda 6 has been non stop trouble for the last 4 years, I bought it in 08. I do 22k a year and don't record petrol spends. By on line mpg estimates, my tax, insurance and nct I spend not far off 4k a year on it. This excludes maintenance problems which apparently for the mazda 6 ive been horrendously unlucky with. Apparently their very reliable but everything that could go wrong has gone wrong, perhaps a Friday evening car. On top of that parts for the Mazda 6 are ridiculously expensive.

    I failed the NCT on the handbrake (same happened a few years ago and took 800 to remedy) and massively on emissions. On top of that the gears are slipping while driving so I reckon its not worth fixing up at this stage.

    Been saving for a house for a very long time so the Leafs 21k price tag after scrappage and grants will still leave me just under the 70% Loan to Value for a mortgage when we find the right house. Anyone know whether banks prefer a bigger savings amount vs a car loan.

    So Ive been googling, emailing etc all week and employers have agreed to allow me a charge point at work (landlord said will let me know but more then likely no issue, have to confirm in morning as 4k scrappage ends tomorrow). Employer gets it paid for but need to pay for any electricity I use charging and hold a electric car promotion day.

    Buying a leaf gets me a new car with running costs less then 1k a year though 21k is way more then id like to be paying. Other top option being a 2010 estate with 80k on the clock for 10k including 1k trade in and my estimated costs of 2300 a year. So I would be able to charge at home and work so I wont ever be arriving home with nothing left over. My wife has a 03 golf but I think the savings would mean the odd time (probably every 2nd year) we wanted to drive long distance without worrying about charge etc id be happy to actually rent a car.

    Im well aware of the 140k range and battery degradation issues. I have no interest in a car being fancy or new and reckon in 8 or 9 years id probably be happy to spend 6k on a replacement battery rather then a new car. Expectations are if you treat the battery right it'll have 80% capacity in 10 years.

    Given the lack of expendables a new battery should pretty much equal the feel of a new car. Given Im fairly certain to work in the same place which is 60k from home, can charge there and at home, will have a non electric car always available is this a no brainer?

    For anyone interested I test drove it for 24 hours and its a fine drive. Takes bends like nothing ive experienced as its weight can be distributed better then a traditional car, not as quick to accelerate at speed then a mazda 6 but v quick from a standstill though to be fair and im sure its the same for automatics it feels a little boring to drive as you have so less to do.
    When driving it you are more aware of fuel efficiency then in a normal car so I think id turn into a safer driver too which isnt a bad thing with a toddler getting ready to point out every time I might go over the speed limit.


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Comments

  • #2


    moved to EV's as unanswered in Buying section


  • #2


    TBH you need to sit down and do your sums, If you want the Leaf and can afford it then get it. No new car is cheap but if you want the cheapest new car to run the then Ev is the cheapest by far.

    I would say it's more important to have as much deposit for the mortgage as possible.

    I am doing enough mileage for the savings on petrol to pay almost half the repayments on PCP on the Leaf but it would have been cheaper to keep the prius and pay for petrol but the prius had a lot of mileage and I wanted a change so I said why not.

    PCP can be a good way to pay for a car if you intend to change in 3 years time but if you decide to keep it you'll have to pay a balloon payment at the end, most people will jsut keep buying new every 3 years to get out of the balloon but it;s fits my monthly budget perfectly and I intend to change in 2-2.5 years anyway.

    If you want to buy new the updated battery with more range is due in the late Autumn I would hold on for that if you fancy having more range.

    Winter range should be about 100 Kms minimum for the model with the heat pump which is a much more efficient heater found in the SV and SVE trims over the standard one in the Xe.

    I would estimate that at about 110 Kms in the height of winter you would need to be plugged in that's at about 100 Km/hr speed roughly.

    The Leaf is a great car to drive and I love driving it on back roads, a lot of instant power is what transforms the driving experience. it only has 107 Hp pulling about 1300 Kgs so at the top it does feel a bit lacking but for the power it has it has a lot of power where most people need it all the time it does reach the limiter at 164 kph with ease and at that speed one of the quietest cars you will drive.

    I drove the my partners 1.6 2007 Kia Ceed estate yesterday and it caught me at a few junctions and round-a-bouts, where the Leaf would have darted out without a bother at all the diesel was so horribly slow to build up speed. Diesels are just horrid to drive especially manuals. same with my sisters 08 peugeot manual 1.6 diesel and I even prefer driving the Leaf to my brothers Quattro 184 Hp DSG A4, too much electronic crap and driving modes on modern diesels to ruin any driving experience where I just get into the leaf, stick it in drive and off I go.

    Another thing, think carefully where you will move house because if you move to somewhere you can't park on your own property then you could find it very difficult to live with the Leaf if you can't install a home charge point unless you only do very small mileage that a fast charge will do you a few days. You don't want to risk queuing at fast chargers and you don;t want fast charging to be your primary means of charging.

    How many miles do you do daily on average ?


  • #2


    21k is the SV model, right? There is one lower, works out at 18k.

    Money-wise, I hear ha. We are saving hard for an extension at the moment, and found a new car hard to justify. Our last car was giving a lot of grief though, and so far, even with a car loan, it's working out cheaper per month. My insurance dropped slightly, tax came way down, we got a night rate electricity meter, which we should have done years ago, as it brought down our electric bills too. Big one was the maintenance. Everything and anything was going wrong with the old car.

    Now, to qualify for the scrappage I think your car needs a valid nct. Check it maybe.

    Ask in the dealer about 0% finance, this will cut the repayments for you if you can get it.

    I'm not sure how the PCP agreement is going to look on a credit rating report. A car loan will be taken out of your net disposable income for mortgage calculations, so it all depends on your own financials on how that works.

    You could overpay the loan whenever you could, and try to pay it down faster. Most places offer that, my local credit union was running a loan discount recently enough.

    Are you renting currently? You can get a charger installed there, would need landlord permission (which I can't see them objecting to), and I don't think you'd get another free charger install when you move house.


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    No, the 21,500 leaf is the basic XE and excludes a lot of equipment over the SV which is the mid spec costing about 24,000 out the door.

    The basic XE does not include the telematics which allows you to remote start the heating or AC/Heat or set a timer for the AC/Heat from your smart phone/internet but you can still set the timers in the car itself. This telematics includes sat nav.

    The XE does not include the much more efficient heat pump heater.

    The Xe omits alloys and It's not clear to me now if the XE still excludes the fast charge port, it used to be optional but now I'm not so sure, basically, without fast charging the car is useless an will never sell 2nd hand like the now Discontinued renault Fluence EV which also had no fast charge port, you'd have to check this with the dealer.

    You might pick up a 2013 SV for a decent price 2nd hand.

    I always advice to spend the 900 Euro's for the 6.6 Kw charger which is twice as fast as the standard charger from public non fast charge points. It's saved me a lot of hassle in the 7 months I have the Leaf I would not have an EV with less than 6.6 Kw charging.

    Look at the ESB Ecars charge point map, the green are the standard chargers and the Blue the fast chargers, every EV owner wants to go to the fast chargers because they charge much faster but if you can plug in at a standard street charger you can get from 25%-100% in 2 hrs 40 mins or 2 hrs to about 90% and is extremely useful while out and about meaning when your business is done in town you go back to the car, drive off and don't have to look for a fast charger or have to wait while the car has charged or wait while someone else has finished charging. In fact I find the 6.6 Kw charger so bloody useful that If I had to make the choice I would not have the telematics or sat nav or even the heated seats. The next most useful thing is the Heat pump which should be standard on the XE and the 6.6 Kw should be standard on all.

    At the fast charger you will usually only charge to 80% because charging beyond 80% takes a long time and you're better off driving to the next fast charger if you need the range.

    How many miles do you do average daily ?


  • #2


    pre-registered fluence z.e. ???
    asking under 8k on donedeal and no mention of the former battery lease.


  • #2


    pre-registered fluence z.e. ???
    asking under 8k on donedeal and no mention of the former battery lease.

    Definately has the battery lease still in force (unless it was imported from Norway).

    They can ask for €8k all they like... I've been talking to dealers and owners and those Fluence ZEs are going off the yard for €5k.

    They are all 12 reg and been stuck with the dealers since first registered.
    Heavier and larger than the Leaf with less power and less interior space, no rapid charging and a much poorer spec.


  • #2


    Most of those fluences are sitting a very long time and you don't know what conditions the battery was kept in , i.e, too high or low a charge for too long a time. I wouldn't do it. If the battery is leased then maybe.

    Again without the fast charging it will only have about 60 miles range in winter on a new battery. The Leaf is a far better car.

    If the Fluence at the very least had a 6.6 Kw charger you could maybe live with it but with 3.3 Kw , forget it. Fluence was a disastrous car for Renault they made some seriously stupid decisions the Ultimate was not having fast charging that's essentially what killed it.

    The Fluence is probably the main reason Renault dealers are not bothered about selling electrics because they might think all electrics might suffer the same faith, so why bother ?

    If you're sure you will be happy with 60 odd miles range then it would be a seriously cheap car that is extremely cheap to run, but will they sell it with the battery ? I highly doubt it.


  • #2


    at the price it seems like it is worth a punt if it suits your range and usage expectations.
    It may have been a disaster for Renault but every car will sell at a price albeit much less than the original asking price.


  • #2


    at the price it seems like it is worth a punt if it suits your range and usage expectations.
    It may have been a disaster for Renault but every car will sell at a price albeit much less than the original asking price.

    Sure... if you know what you are buying go ahead. I was looking at one for my mum's runabout but I did the math and the price difference between it and a similar age Leaf with rapid charging would have been made up in four years due to the battery lease alone.


  • #2


    I look at my father and he has a carport with electrical socket available. He only travels in to town and back out again and doesn't like travelling much further these days. It would be perfect for him and he has access to another car in the household for longer journeys if need be.
    The biggest attraction of the car is that it looks conventional rather than futuristic.


  • #2


    Even with the battery rental it would still work out very cheap. You could for about 3 K add a 20 Kw charger, would be seriously useful but getting someone to fit it in Ireland could be a problem.

    I'm not a fan of battery leasing because the lease agreement itself it doesn't say you will get a brand new battery if the capacity should fall to 75%, what it does say is that it's at their discretion and I don't like this because it's highly possible the will only repair the battery to in or around 75% capacity if it falls below. And they don't say how far below 75% it should go before they repair it back to 75%.

    I personally can't see Renault technicians trying to mach all the original cells with similar aged cells with similar capacity and internal resistance. It would be far easier to swap the pack and use the old one for storage.


  • #2


    Dealer replied to say that battery lease on Flunce is still present.
    I'd prefer to play the lottery of owning the battery than leasing it and just depreciating the car away from 6,000 to 500 euro over 5 years with a reducing range in the battery year after year.


  • #2


    Still I have a funny feeling you'll regret not getting a 2nd hand Leaf, especially if you intended buying new. It's a far better car and you will greatly appreciate being able to fast charge, you would regret it.

    Most people find that the EV even with it's limited range is far more useful than they ever could have imagined and use it a lot more than the ICE car if they have one. Fast charging is essential.

    You could get a late 2013 updated leaf for a decent price from the U.K. or if you don't do mad mileage then lease a SV leaf and add the 900 Euro 6.6 Kw charger. :-) had to say it.

    leasing works out a lot cheaper PM than if you buy outright, and for me by as much as 300 Euro's PM. At the end you got to either pay the balloon or take out a new contract which is what most people do rather than pay 12-15K balloon. Or hand the car back and loose what equity may be built up because the GFV or guaranteed future value (the balloon) but it's usually the rock bottom price they expect to get for the car, usually it's worth more at the end and that's money towards a new contract. The downside ? you're always paying where as with a bank loan, at the end it's yours if you want to buy it and keep it then PCP makes no sense but actually PCP gives you 3 years to decide if you want to keep the car or get another at the end. I like this option. I don't intend keeping the Leaf after the 3 years so I decided PCP was best for me.

    I like to have cash in the bank rather than dump a lump sum on a car, if you loose your job you can loose the car a lot easier than get your money back. In Ireland it's next to impossible to sell a car with outstanding finance. don't know why because that's how I bought my Prius, simple really once you take the proper precautions and do the deal in the bank but a lot of people here on Boards make a major song and dance about it.


  • #2


    We went to buy one on Friday (last day of scrappage dela) but my wife got last minute nerves due to the whole range issue and we backed out. Have looked at the second hand options but due to older issues id prefer a 2013 or newer and not a lot out there, with the strength of sterling and me being in Cork that doesn't look like a great option either. Disappointed as had been looking forward to driving past petrol stations with a smug grin on my face.
    Thanks for all the help and replies.


  • #2


    Shame it didn't work out. Best of luck with whatever you go with!


  • #2


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    We went to buy one on Friday (last day of scrappage dela) but my wife got last minute nerves due to the whole range issue and we backed out. Have looked at the second hand options but due to older issues id prefer a 2013 or newer and not a lot out there, with the strength of sterling and me being in Cork that doesn't look like a great option either. Disappointed as had been looking forward to driving past petrol stations with a smug grin on my face.
    Thanks for all the help and replies.

    Era I'd guess the scrappage was renewed again for this month...

    Have you taken the leaf for the 24 hour test drive? That might alleviate the range anxiety.


  • #2


    Balmed Out wrote: »
    We went to buy one on Friday (last day of scrappage dela) but my wife got last minute nerves due to the whole range issue and we backed out. Have looked at the second hand options but due to older issues id prefer a 2013 or newer and not a lot out there, with the strength of sterling and me being in Cork that doesn't look like a great option either. Disappointed as had been looking forward to driving past petrol stations with a smug grin on my face.
    Thanks for all the help and replies.

    If it's your only car the range can be an issue when you need to do the 150 + mile trips and maybe trips along the west coast, the fast chargers are a bit lacking around the west but there are loads of AC Points (another reason to get the 6.6 KW charger )

    But yeah if your Wife isn't happy about it you have to take that into consideration.

    Late 2017 and the MK II Leaf, GM Bolt and the Tesla Model III (the so called affordable 260 mile range Tesla) and maybe more.

    Shame it didn't work out, maybe a 2 day test drive would change her mind ?


  • #2


    Mad_Lad wrote: »

    Late 2017 and the MK II Leaf, GM Bolt and the Tesla Model III (the so called affordable 260 mile range Tesla) and maybe more.

    we won't see the Model 3 or Bolt in Ireland or the UK in 2017

    Musk has said he wants the Model 3 to have a solid 200 mile range at motorway speeds, I don't think he ever said anything about 260 miles for the base model, will be interesting to see what range the most expensive Model 3 gets, could be 300 miles +


  • #2


    nokia69 wrote: »
    we won't see the Model 3 or Bolt in Ireland or the UK in 2017

    Musk has said he wants the Model 3 to have a solid 200 mile range at motorway speeds, I don't think he ever said anything about 260 miles for the base model, will be interesting to see what range the most expensive Model 3 gets, could be 300 miles +

    Elon wants 260 miles for the Model 3, and I suppose that's the usual quote for 60 mph which isn't at all bad. Probably not for the base model but to be honest if i had a choice between 260 miles or 200 I would choose the 200, I don't need anything more than this especially if I can 120 Kw super chargers and use the 50 Kw DC that the ESb install

    Bolt will be released in 2017 and will be available before the leaf, it's on target to be out before the Leaf, but that could change. But they'll probably all be late 2017's for 2018 orders. Leaf is expected late 2017.

    Most likely Opel Ireland won't import the Bolt like Kia Ireland wouldn't import the Kia Soul Ev into Ireland they weren't going to spend money on retooling workshops, training etc because they felt no one would buy it so they decided they wouldn't even advertise it or put it on the regular Soul Brochure for fear people might want to buy it. it costs Nissan dealers 150,000 to sell the Leaf but it's paying off because Nissan Ireland actually want to sell the leaf.


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    yeah I think we will see the Leaf in 2017, its already built in the UK and the main change for the next get Leaf is a bigger battery so unlike the model 3 or bolt we don't have to wait longer for the right hand drive version


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    I think the leaf will be completely redesigned, they'd be mad not to.

    I read where they plan to offer more electrics after Leaf II, probably 2020 and seemingly they are not going the plug-in route which I'm really glad to hear, unlike the Germans who plan nothing but a flood of silly plug ins. It's quiet unbelievable the German car makers can't/won't make a Tesla equivalent !


  • #2


    Do we even know if the Bolt will be sold on this side of the Atlantic? They haven't committed one way or the other but their experience with the Volt/Ampera wasn't a great one.

    I'd be surprised if the next generation Leaf didn't see a redesign though I don't think they need to make it any bigger. More battery capacity with a focus on reducing the cost would be perfect, we can't rely on subsidies being there forever.


  • #2


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Do we even know if the Bolt will be sold on this side of the Atlantic? They haven't committed one way or the other but their experience with the Volt/Ampera wasn't a great one.

    I'd be surprised if the next generation Leaf didn't see a redesign though I don't think they need to make it any bigger. More battery capacity with a focus on reducing the cost would be perfect, we can't rely on subsidies being there forever.

    I think it's highly likely GM will sell the Bolt in Europe, they see the leaf selling, granted not in huge numbers but it's still selling, they're close to the 200,000 th Leaf. Sales in Ireland are growing more and more each year. GM would be mad not to , a 200 mile range EV is a game changer. The question is, will Opel Ireland decide to import it ? they decided they wouldn't import the Volt. Kia decided not to import the Soul EV so how many more are going to completely refuse to sell electrics ?

    Irish dealers will tell you that Irish people only want the Diesel to get them to Mass and the Schools the diesel saves them in their minds loads of road tax sure why would they need electric ?


  • #2


    The Soul EV hasn't been a big seller even in the places it is available. On paper it's a fine car (looks terrible though) but I've seen people on American EV sites complaining about limited availability and a lack of interest from Kia in selling it.

    I'd agree that the pro-diesel mindset is hard to shift here - diesel is suitable for some motorists but not for people making short journeys, you'll pay the price in maintenance. People here just seem to see the low motor tax though. I know the French seem to be trying to eliminate it as a fuel for passenger cars because of the carcinogenic pollution caused by diesel.


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    Yes I read an article where the French have admitted the mistakes of diesel vehicles through the decades especially with the increasing evidence of cancer and heart diesel related to diesel not to mention atmospheric pollution and I'm talking "actual" pollution not Co2. The U.K Government have also admitted the mistakes of diesel.

    Two of my neighbours went from petrol to diesel all because of the "road tax" the neighbour beside me used to run the old petrol for about 30 mins to warm up the car to drive her 16 year old Son 300 meters to School ? when I asked her why diesel ? she said " I do a lot of mileage" the two older children drive it but they're all mainly short trips. When I asked why not electric ? the answer . " on my Husband wouldn't have one of those" lol it's mental how people think. They listen to too much ****e talk in the pub.

    The Lady who I seemingly made angry at the Naas charge point, think she called me the "EV Police" lol on FB anyway she said her leccy bill has gone up a lot but if people got a bill monthly for petrol or diesel they'd be shocked. It's all too easy to pump xx into the tank and not think about it because you pay in cash but 50 euro's wil get you about 2,000 miles in an ev on night rate leccy.


  • #2


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    The Soul EV hasn't been a big seller even in the places it is available. On paper it's a fine car (looks terrible though) but I've seen people on American EV sites complaining about limited availability and a lack of interest from Kia in selling it.

    I'd agree that the pro-diesel mindset is hard to shift here - diesel is suitable for some motorists but not for people making short journeys, you'll pay the price in maintenance. People here just seem to see the low motor tax though. I know the French seem to be trying to eliminate it as a fuel for passenger cars because of the carcinogenic pollution caused by diesel.
    The diesel tax certainly was not cheaper in my case - €700 over €200 for the petrol one. What made it worth was the difference in fuel consumption and price. I went from 1L automatic petrol (well, modified and wide wheels and etc...) to a 1.9tdi automatic estate and the savings on fuel + the comfort for the same sort of a money... It is funny though how a brand new EV now costs me cheaper to run + pay for PCP compared to my old cars...


  • #2


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Yes I read an article where the French have admitted the mistakes of diesel vehicles through the decades especially with the increasing evidence of cancer and heart diesel related to diesel not to mention atmospheric pollution and I'm talking "actual" pollution not Co2. The U.K Government have also admitted the mistakes of diesel.

    Two of my neighbours went from petrol to diesel all because of the "road tax" the neighbour beside me used to run the old petrol for about 30 mins to warm up the car to drive her 16 year old Son 300 meters to School ? when I asked her why diesel ? she said " I do a lot of mileage" the two older children drive it but they're all mainly short trips. When I asked why not electric ? the answer . " on my Husband wouldn't have one of those" lol it's mental how people think. They listen to too much ****e talk in the pub.

    The Lady who I seemingly made angry at the Naas charge point, think she called me the "EV Police" lol on FB anyway she said her leccy bill has gone up a lot but if people got a bill monthly for petrol or diesel they'd be shocked. It's all too easy to pump xx into the tank and not think about it because you pay in cash but 50 euro's wil get you about 2,000 miles in an ev on night rate leccy.

    Lots of people would not realise or would not want to realise the difference between running an EV and an ICE. Only when you purposedly sit down and do your mats you can see why one make sense and the other does not...


  • #2


    peposhi wrote: »
    Lots of people would not realise or would not want to realise the difference between running an EV and an ICE. Only when you purposedly sit down and do your mats you can see why one make sense and the other does not...

    I think a lot of the problem is people are all to willing to shell out xxxx in petrol/diesel and not give it a 2nd thought, there is no bill at the end of the month. And I guarantee the very same people would say if they got an EV that they'd have to get rid of it because it's running up a big electric bill !!! :D


  • #2


    When I get paid each month I budget everything out, (electric, grocery shopping, fuel, heating oil etc) and then if there's anything left I try to stick it in the Credit Union.

    Up until now I have been putting £200 a month aside in a jar for fuel, maybe £20 on coal and the rest for diesel.

    Now that I'm EV only, I'm still putting that £200 a month aside. I stuck €30 in there for the insurance saving, and €70 for the tax saving.

    So next July when I celebrate 1 year of Leaf driving, I'll have a little pot with approximately £2100 and €100 in it. Combined and converted that's around €3000 even after deducting €25 a month on the electric bill.

    I'll change it all into €20 notes and then take a picture of myself throwing it up in the air like an eccentric millionaire.

    Smugness overload.


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    When work eventually install the charge point 50% of my commute will be free ! Although I get free leccy at the fast charger, I decide to charge enough to get home with the work charger I would take a lot more. If I'm still here when Gen II comes out then I will only charge at work because one charge will be more than enough to get me up and back.


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