CRU (formerly CER) review of charging infrastructure

BoatMad · 14-10-2016 12:56pm #1

The CER review is taking placed and open for consultation

BoatMad · 19-10-2016 6:37pm

the views fo suers should be sent to mvencius@cer.ie

every EV owner should read the documents and submit an opinion

Davy · 19-10-2016 8:29pm

http://www.cer.ie/document-detail/Electric-Vehicles/413

Response Deadline: 25/Nov/2016

Consultation Open - Responses to: Mantas Vencius

The CER has today, 14th October 2016, published a consultation paper on ESB eCars’ proposal on the ownership of the Electric Vehicle Charging assets installed as part of a Pilot Study approved by the CER in 2014, and the Report on the completed EV Pilot Study. As the Pilot has now concluded ESB eCars has submitted its proposal on the future ownership of the charging infrastructure. The CER welcomes comments on any of the issues raised in this consultation paper, the ESB eCar proposals, and the report on the EV Pilot. Comments on this consultation should be sent to Mantas Vencius available at mvencius@cer.ie by 17.00 Friday 25th November 2016.

n97 mini · 19-10-2016 10:33pm

I will be giving my feedback shortly to CER. I am happy to pay a unit rate, billed to my current electricity supplier, preferably the same unit rate as I'm currently paying as I shop around and want to keep being rewarded for same. I would settle for a small amount extra per unit to be added on to cover capital costs but I don't feel this is necessary as $13 million is a drop in the ocean in the electricity market. The ESB paid its €203 million surplus into the exchequer in 2015.

As regards a monthly fee. Like motor tax I feel this is an ownership charge and not a usage charge (and I already pay a standing charge for my domestic supply). As we would only need the public charging network maybe once a month (drawing maybe €4 worth of electricity at current rates) we wouldn't get any value from it, and would opt out altogether rather than pay another monthly fee. I think others would do the same, essentially dropping EV's off the public network grid, and thus would be counter productive.

19-10-2016 10:35pm

There needs to be multiple chargers on site, and there needs to be 100 + Kw chargers installed when electrics can charge at this power.

When electrics sell in large numbers in Ireland range will be 350+ kms so the need for charging will be rare, what is really needed is for EV charging to become a legal right so that apartment management agencies can no longer refuse a charge point installation and Co. Councils will have to provide street charging for those who have no designated parking space.

The greatest issue now is only a single DC charger on site.

n97 mini · 19-10-2016 10:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

When electrics sell in large numbers in Ireland range will be 350+ kms so the need for charging will be rare

It might actually be the opposite, and something I've been thinking about for a while. Your typical domestic supply is rated for just under 15kw, but if you drive it full bore there is no head room for electric showers, cookers, immersion heaters, washing machines etc, so 7kw is probably a realistic maximum domestic load for charging an EV.

In the case of the Leaf, if there was such a thing as a 60kw, it would take around 2.5 times longer to charge fully from home than a 24kw. Not feasible at all with a 3.3kw charger as you could be waiting 24+ hours. At 6.6kw it's potentially borderline, time-wise.

Should we ever get a 100kw Leaf, or any other EV, you'll never be able to fully charge it from home, so owners will be more reliant than ever on having access to public chargers.

Tesla has probably thought of this and it's one of the reasons it is carpet bombing places with Super Chargers.

So in summary, it could get worse, not better. More EVs on the roads, and more looking for public chargers as home charging will have hit a brick wall.

Cookie_Monster · 19-10-2016 11:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Co. Councils will have to provide street charging for those who have no designated parking space.

why on earth would they have to do that, or why would anybody want that? Councils don't have to provide petrol pumps all over the place, do they?

The provision should be no different to the current setup, let private businesses cater for it on designated sites and stop trying to force everyone to subsidise further EV infrastructure that only clutters the place up.

19-10-2016 11:30pm

n97 mini wrote: »

It might actually be the opposite, and something I've been thinking about for a while. Your typical domestic supply is rated for just under 15kw, but if you drive it full bore there is no head room for electric showers, cookers, immersion heaters, washing machines etc, so 7kw is probably a realistic maximum domestic load for charging an EV.

In the case of the Leaf, if there was such a thing as a 60kw, it would take around 2.5 times longer to charge fully from home than a 24kw. Not feasible at all with a 3.3kw charger as you could be waiting 24+ hours. At 6.6kw it's potentially borderline, time-wise.

Should we ever get a 100kw Leaf, or any other EV, you'll never be able to fully charge it from home, so owners will be more reliant than ever on having access to public chargers.

Tesla has probably thought of this and it's one of the reasons it is carpet bombing places with Super Chargers.

So in summary, it could get worse, not better. More EVs on the roads, and more looking for public chargers as home charging will have hit a brick wall.

You certainly won't use 60 Kwh in a day so house supply won't be a major issue.

A full 60 Kwh work of juice can be charge in 10 Hrs at 6.6 Kw over night if needs be. No major issue. Even at 3.3 Kw over a couple of nights.

350 odd kms range is a lot really. You're not going to go through that in a day.

2 ev's charging at home at 3.5 Kw each most of the time will suffice or maybe a quick visit to the fast charger for a bit extra.

n97 mini · 19-10-2016 11:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A full 60 Kwh work of juice can be charge in 10 Hrs at 6.6 Kw over night if needs be. No major issue. Even at 3.3 Kw over a couple of nights.

10 hours is really too long. More than 9 hours and you can't charge within the nightsaver window. And that's just with 60kw batteries. As regards 3.3kw charing.... who's going to want to leave their car charging for a couple of nights just to fill it, when they can go to a public fast charger and do it all in one go?

My point still stands, once you get to about 60kw, home charging is less attractive as it'll take too long.

20-10-2016 12:19am

n97 mini wrote: »

10 hours is really too long. More than 9 hours and you can't charge within the nightsaver window. And that's just with 60kw batteries. As regards 3.3kw charing.... who's going to want to leave their car charging for a couple of nights just to fill it, when they can go to a public fast charger and do it all in one go?

My point still stands, once you get to about 60kw, home charging is less attractive as it'll take too long.

10 hours too long ? so what if you have to use 2-3 hrs worth of electricity on peak rate, it's still cheap. But you're missing the point, the majority of your daily driving will not even consume half the battery. So there'll be plenty for the long trip if you need it.

n97 mini · 20-10-2016 12:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

10 hours too long ? so what if you have to use 2-3 hrs worth of electricity on peak rate, it's still cheap. But you're missing the point, the majority of your daily driving will not even consume half the battery. So there'll be plenty for the long trip if you need it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree I think! 10 hours puts you outside the nightsaver window *and* is (more importantly) starting to be inconvenient from a charging perspective; having to charge your car over two nights for a trip to Cork is not something many people will put up with when they can just pop down to their nearest public quick charger. There is also the non-availability of the car while spending extended periods charging to take into account. By your own admission there needs to be more 100kw+ chargers, something which can only be delivered by public chargers.

If ICE owners are to be won over, improving range won't be much good if it involves a lot of inconvenience. They're used to a 2-min "charge", widely available, giving them 900+ kms at the moment.

20-10-2016 1:06am

n97 mini wrote: »

We're going to have to agree to disagree I think! 10 hours puts you outside the nightsaver window *and* is (more importantly) starting to be inconvenient from a charging perspective; having to charge your car over two nights for a trip to Cork is not something many people will put up with when they can just pop down to their nearest public quick charger. There is also the non-availability of the car while spending extended periods charging to take into account. By your own admission there needs to be more 100kw+ chargers, something which can only be delivered by public chargers.

If ICE owners are to be won over, improving range won't be much good if it involves a lot of inconvenience. They're used to a 2-min "charge", widely available, giving them 900+ kms at the moment.

You're simply not getting it, no offence intended.

even if you charge all the 10 hrs on peak rate electricity it's still cheap compared to diesel so even if you get 7 hrs on night rate and 2-3 on peak rate it really is no big deal.

Here's an example. I consume currently between 24-28 Kwh of electricity for my commute of about 135 kms so 3/28 = 9.3 hrs @3.3 Kw or at 6.6 Kw (6-6.1 to the battery) about 4.6 hrs to charge.

So 11pm- 8am winter is the night rate and Midnight to 9 am Summer.

So lets say I have a 60 kwh battery, this commute leaves me with 32 Kwh in the battery for Saturday heading to Cork needing 9.3 Hrs at 3Kw to charge Friday night, perfect , done while I sleep.

IF I charge at 6.6 kW it needs 4.6 hrs to charge for the trip to Cork.

So when I come home Friday night I have still just over half the battery charge , I don't need a full charge and I won't be driving to Cork or whatever every weekend or week.

If I charge at 3.3 Kw I need 20 Hrs to charge or 10 at 6.6 Kw.

It's unlikely a 60 Kwh EV will come with 3.3 Kw charging on AC but your home charge point could be 3.3 Kw depending on what you get and depending if you have 2 EV's or not, one can charge at 6.6 Kw and the other at 3.3, still probably plenty off peak, that's about 10 Kw.

You can always upgrade your home supply on single phase.

People's electricity bills will get more expensive but they will only really notice because they get a bill, people paying for petrol and diesel will pay a hell of a lot more and people will be able to install Solar PV and wind turbines to generate their own energy or part of it. But even if not, it's still a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel.

n97 mini · 20-10-2016 1:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

You're simply not getting it, no offence intended.

None taken, but your post has some assumptions, namely that people charge every night. We drive both the ICE and the EV from (almost) full to (almost) empty, and then refill. The EV does a 30km commute (15km each way), so it doesn't get refilled every day. If it's empty on Friday evening, it needs to be refilled. If we had a theoretical high capacity EV and we're going to Cork on Saturday morning, then we need to start thinking about how much is charge is left on Thursday. Have you met my wife?!

Reality is it's going to be one big blast at a public point, or bring the ICE instead.

Remember my argument is that all-in I reckon bigger batteries will lead people to rely on public charging more, not less.

20-10-2016 1:26am

n97 mini wrote: »

None taken, but your post has some assumptions, namely that people charge every night. We drive both the ICE and the EV from (almost) full to (almost) empty, and then refill. The EV does a 30km commute (15km each way), so it doesn't get refilled every day. If it's empty on Friday evening, it needs to be refilled. If we had a theoretical high capacity EV and we're going to Cork on Saturday morning, then we need to start thinking about how much is charge is left on Thursday. Have you met my wife?!

Reality is it's going to be one big blast at a public point, or bring the ICE instead.

Remember my argument is that all-in I reckon bigger batteries will lead people to rely on public charging more, not less.

So if it's empty on Friday evening plug it in over night, 10 hrs at 6.6 Kw no big deal.........

n97 mini · 20-10-2016 1:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

So if it's empty on Friday evening plug it in over night, 10 hrs at 6.6 Kw no big deal.........

For a 60kw, which I did say is borderline. 100kw+ and why would you not get it in a fraction of the time at a public charger?

20-10-2016 1:47am

n97 mini wrote: »

For a 60kw, which I did say is borderline. 100kw+ and why would you not get it in a fraction of the time at a public charger?

Well I don't think I need a 100 Kwh battery but my point still stands, if you can charge 60 kwh over night at 10 hrs you can a 100 Kwh in 16.6 hrs at 6.6 kw or 10 hrs 60 Kwh and the rest on the road.

I don't see why you would not charge at home if you could, makes no sense.

BoatMad · 20-10-2016 4:10am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why on earth would they have to do that, or why would anybody want that? Councils don't have to provide petrol pumps all over the place, do they?

The provision should be no different to the current setup, let private businesses cater for it on designated sites and stop trying to force everyone to subsidise further EV infrastructure that only clutters the place up.

There is no business case that says that the public infrastructure can be privately funded solely by EV users, in all of europe the infrastruture is state supported in on form or another

in ireland with 2000 users, there is no commercial case AT ALL for the foreseeable future

The decarbonisation of private transport is a stated national and european aim. to order for that to occur, we need to think differently for example the state could view charging pointd in the same way as roads and bridges , and provide free electricity and recover the costs via road pricing for example,

You'd cant compare a 70 year historical product and its supply chain with electricity and in effect a transport revolution

20-10-2016 4:12am

You're up early BoatMad.

BoatMad · 20-10-2016 4:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

You're up early BoatMad.

never went to bed, wrote a 8 page submission to the CER!

20-10-2016 4:15am

I presume you'll share that with is over at the FB Group ?

BoatMad · 20-10-2016 4:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

I presume you'll share that with is over at the FB Group ?

not sure . my personal views are not necessary the same as the IEVOA dont want to create a rumpus !

Havant decided

20-10-2016 4:25am

Ah sure they'll be alright too , I wouldn't worry about that.

I think Multiple daily DC chargers is probably the main issue , if one goes down then at least there is a backup, not only that, 3-4 Chargers in the busier spots. They need to get serious about this.

The big question has to be funding, I've no idea where it's going to come from and why would the ESB continue to pour money in with no real return ?

BoatMad · 20-10-2016 4:27am

The big question has to be funding, I've no idea where it's going to come from and why would the ESB continue to pour money in with no real return ?

The ESB hasn't put a penny into the network, everything has been billed back to the CER and payed out from the DUoS funds, ( rather like the grid).

The network has in effect been subsidised by the electricity payers of Ireland ( approx to the value of 32million euros ) there is actually no practical reason by the DUoS funding cant continue in the short/medium term, its a pimple of a cost to the CER.

PS; off to bed now !!!!!, day off tomorrow and lie in !!!

20-10-2016 4:39am

You mean day off today,

More E.U funding would be nice, or rather donation of chargers at least then there'd be no money to be squandered.

BoatMad · 20-10-2016 4:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean day off today,

More E.U funding would be nice, or rather donation of chargers at least then there'd be no money to be squandered.

the EU contributes less then 10% of the total costs of the CER sponsored Pilot project

so much is mis understood and how DUoS charges funds ESB distribution

KCross · 20-10-2016 10:47am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Multiple daily DC chargers is probably the main issue , if one goes down then at least there is a backup, not only that, 3-4 Chargers in the busier spots. They need to get serious about this.

The CER dont care about that in this case. Their job in this consultation paper is to make a decision on who owns the network going forward. It will then be up to "them" to deal with that issue. If you are submitting something to the CER on this they will just throw that idea/feedback in the bin.... IMO.

Deleted User wrote: »

The big question has to be funding, I've no idea where it's going to come from and why would the ESB continue to pour money in with no real return ?

I've been having a scan through the CER docs. They need to keep getting the money from the same source as before and forget about charging for charging until we hit a tipping point... not sure how you would define that.... maybe X number of EV's on the road.

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB hasn't put a penny into the network, everything has been billed back to the CER and payed out from the DUoS funds, ( rather like the grid).

Based on my reading, I think they paid €6m of their own money but they are requesting it back from the CER. Not sure I'd disagree with that viewpoint. They have provided the network for free to the users so no reason why they shouldnt be reimbursed for it.

BoatMad wrote: »

The network has in effect been subsidised by the electricity payers of Ireland ( approx to the value of 32million euros ) there is actually no practical reason by the DUoS funding cant continue in the short/medium term, its a pimple of a cost to the CER.

I havent figured out. yet, from reading the docs what this DUoS is(Distribution Use of System). Do you know exactly what that is and where that money comes from?
If its the ordinary bill payers it must be on our bils? Where is it? Is it a subset of the "PSO Levy"? Or is it some central government fund or what?

Whatever it is, I would agree with you that eCars need to request the same funding for, say, the next 5years and keep it free and keep it off the ESB's asset book.

Any funding they request should also include expanding the network and improving the real time telemetry.

KCross · 20-10-2016 8:10pm

KCross wrote: »

I havent figured out. yet, from reading the docs what this DUoS is(Distribution Use of System). Do you know exactly what that is and where that money comes from?
If its the ordinary bill payers it must be on our bils? Where is it? Is it a subset of the "PSO Levy"? Or is it some central government fund or what?

A bit of googling later....

Distribution Use of System tariff (DUoS).
The set of tariffs paid by suppliers to the DSO in respect of use of the distribution system for each connection point registered to them.

The DSO is ESB Networks who own the distribution network. The suppliers are Airtricity, BordGais, Energia etc

My interpretation of that is that we all have a specific tariff we pay for electricity to our suppliers (Airtricity, Energia etc). That is so many cent per kWh for day and/or night rate electricity. A % of those tariffs has been set aside to subsidise the EV charging network... so everyone with a meter has been paying to subsidise the charging network.

It has cost €33m upto Dec 2015. €25m from DUoS. €3m from EU. The rest from ESB. It costs €4m/yr in Opex costs.

n97 mini · 20-10-2016 8:20pm

KCross wrote: »

It has cost €33m upto Dec 2015. €25m from DUoS. €3m from EU. The rest from ESB. It costs €4m/yr in Opex costs.

All of which are a tiny drop in the ocean when compared to overall turnover and even profit. Last year ESB paid €201 million (i.e. profit) into the exchequer.

KCross · 20-10-2016 8:44pm

n97 mini wrote: »

All of which are a tiny drop in the ocean when compared to overall turnover and even profit. Last year ESB paid €201 million (i.e. profit) into the exchequer.

Absolutely, but EV's are also a tiny proportion of the car market so its all relative.

This consultation paper is all about who should own and pay for the network from now on. eCars or ESB dont pay for it today. Its everyone with a meter pays for it!

Who does everyone here think should pay for the charging network? Obviously we are a biased bunch but I'm still interested in others views.

Villain · 20-10-2016 10:03pm

The Government need to invest in EV's if they want to have any hope of reaching the new low target of 20k cars.

That includes the public charging points especially at this early apodtoon and short range stage.

20-10-2016 10:25pm

Good luck with that, there was nothing other than an extension of the Grant and VRT relief for electric cars in the budget, we have to wait until Budget 2018 too see what's next, and I wouldn't hold my breath !