Angelus

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

It is the religion that the majority of people identify with, but it is not a Catholic country.

That's just semantics you know what point I was making so I'm happy enough

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

That's just semantics you know what point I was making so I'm happy enough

I do understand the point you were making, sorry if my response seemed flippant. The argument that we should allow the majority Catholic have their bells is an argumentum ad populum. There is an entire other thread discussing this and has one of the best retorts to this, focusing on whether RTE should be showing the Angelus as a state-run broadcaster, so I'll just quote it here:

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Firstly, the popularity of the Angelus is speculative at best. We have no real survey data on people's motivation for watching the Angelus and we have no actual viewing figures, just an average figure from six years ago (when I might add, the content of the Angelus was quite different). So we can't really determine how popular the Angelus is as a broadcast item.

Secondly, if popularity is to be a motivating factor then, in the context of your commercial argument, it would have to draw viewers in which advertisers wish to target. Firstly, we don't know without survey data, how many viewers, if any, are tuning in because of the Angelus. Secondly, the breakdown of the last census by religion and Age shows that about only about 30% of the nominal catholics fall within RTE Television's key demographic (i.e. 15-34 year olds). So exactly how many 15-34 year olds do you think are tuning in just for the Angelus? Just how many commercially relevant viewers do you think RTE would lose if it were to scrap the Angelus?

Thirdly, one of the key commitments of RTE is to deliver a value for money service to its license payers. In its FAQ on the TV license, RTE refers to advertising as something it needs to do to cover its cost, not something it is interested in growing:

"The majority of RTÉ’s activities are of a public service nature. The cost of providing these services, however, exceeds the amount of licence fee revenue which RTÉ receives. As a result, RTÉ engages in commercial activities to bridge the funding gap."

Furthermore, in its Annual Report, RTE's operating deficit is not something which they commit to tackle through increasing their advertising revenue but rather through cutting costs:

"RTÉ should continue to give priority to eliminating the financial deficit and further cost reductions should be implemented. Indecon are concerned that RTÉ continues to run a large deficit as this impacts on the future viability of RTÉ."

While we're on the subject of RTE's commitments, its commitments actually include the following:

Objective 1C: Promote inclusiveness and diversity

Given that the Angelus is a specifically catholic call to prayer and has limited or no interest even for other christian denominations and also that catholic oriented broadcasting is given a disproportionate amount of the religious programming, how is retaining the Angelus fulfilling RTE's commitment under this objective.


Objective 1D: Retain existing and attract new audiences through the provision of relevant services

Given, as has been previously discussed, the increasing diversity of the Irish population, how is a catholic call to prayer going to be relevant in attracting a new audience. Since it cannot be demonstrated that it's even relevant to the existing audience, there doesn't seem to be a case for keeping the Angelus given this commitment above.


Objective 4: Effectively manage RTÉ’s finances into the future through optimising funding sources and controlling costs.

So, if RTE were to scrap the Angelus, the airtime could be devoted to expanding the religious programming to other religions. This would make a degree of commercial sense since a larger percentage of Muslims, for example, fall within the target demographic than Catholics. Alternatively, if the minute per day were given to advertising, then the station could generate an extra €4m in ad revenue not to mention saving the approximately €96k that the Angelus costs to broadcast per annum.


In summary, your argument for popularity outlined here:

"I'm sticking with the appeal to popularity; the most logically sound reason for a broadcaster to broadcast anything."

doesn't really hold up to scrutiny for several reasons. Firstly, we don't know how popular the Angelus actually is. Secondly, you haven't presented an argument why popularity should be the sole concern of the broadcaster and why other concerns such as its commitments to inclusiveness and diversity ought to be ignored. Finally, you haven't presented any evidence to suggest that removing the Angelus would in any way negatively impact on the commercial revenue of RTE and hence its reason for keeping it.


Sources

RTE Annual Report 2011

RTE Public Service Statement 2010

RTE Annual Statement of Performance Commitments 2014

RTE Public Funding Review 2011

RTE License fee FAQ

branie2

I liked the religious paintings in the original Angelus

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

I do understand the point you were making, sorry if my response seemed flippant. The argument that we should allow the majority Catholic have their bells is an argumentum ad populum. There is an entire other thread discussing this and has one of the best retorts to this, focusing on whether RTE should be showing the Angelus as a state-run broadcaster, so I'll just quote it here:

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

lazygal

jcd5971 wrote: »

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

This is nonsense. There is no such call from any lgbt community, despite idiots like Senator Healy Eames.

It's only when you step outside the Catholic crap that you realise how bonkers it is to have a Catholic call to prayer on a national broadcaster and how mad it is that people continue to defend it. I am Irish, despite not being Catholic, as are my children. If this is a Catholic country, what are we then?

jcd5971

lazygal wrote: »

This is nonsense. There is no such call from any lgbt community, despite idiots like Senator Healy Eames.

It's only when you step outside the Catholic crap that you realise how bonkers it is to have a Catholic call to prayer on a national broadcaster and how mad it is that people continue to defend it. I am Irish, despite not being Catholic, as are my children. If this is a Catholic country, what are we then?

I suspected it was nonsense hence the (allegedly). I was just using it as an easy example of the point I was trying to make, as I said a bit of a tangent (sorry).

Not religious myself at all but don't mind the Angelus for some reason.

Not Catholic myself either like your goodself I consider myself un-perturbed by catholicism being represented on state broadcaster as it is the majority religion of the religious ( if you get me ðŸ˜) and as an atheist I object to it no more than I object to fair city being on all the time even tho I'm not from Dublin ( strange analogy I know probably a poor attempt at humour also)

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

The argument could be made that in another situation, say with a privately owned broadcaster, then it would absolutely be nit-picking. But as a state-owned broadcaster, it is essentially an arm of the government in a way and thus we have to hold them to higher standards. Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, and since it is highly unlikely that they'll play Muslim calls to prayer, then they should just scrap it altogether.

But don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone sees the Angelus as the battlefield they wish to give their life on, those who strive for a secular Ireland have their sights set on bigger issues such as school patronage, religious ramblings in the constitution and so forth. I think the Angelus is just one of those (literally) daily reminders that religious influences in most aspects of our daily lives are just accepted as culture.

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

The argument could be made that in another situation, say with a privately owned broadcaster, then it would absolutely be nit-picking. But as a state-owned broadcaster, it is essentially an arm of the government in a way and thus we have to hold them to higher standards. Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, and since it is highly unlikely that they'll play Muslim calls to prayer, then they should just scrap it altogether.

But don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone sees the Angelus as the battlefield they wish to give their life on, those who strive for a secular Ireland have their sights set on bigger issues such as school patronage, religious ramblings in the constitution and so forth. I think the Angelus is just one of those (literally) daily reminders that religious influences in most aspects of our daily lives are just accepted as culture.

Don't want to get myself in trouble here but whatever about catholics who at least have a cultural and historic claim to relevance in the country, I don't think we should pander to Muslim indignation too much, if I emigrate to Saudi or UAE and start demanding my Catholic ( I'm not Catholic just devil's advocate) beliefs should be catered to on national media, I'd be quickly told to clear off as I knew what I was walking into.
I'm all for immigration and ethnic diversity but also believe that as an imigrant you have a duty at least to a point, to respect and integrate into the community you chose to join into.

Anyway I think we're ( possibly just me) drifting off point a bit.

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Don't want to get myself in trouble here but whatever about catholics who at least have a cultural and historic claim to relevance in the country, I don't think we should pander to Muslim indignation too much, if I emigrate to Saudi or UAE and start demanding my Catholic ( I'm not Catholic just devil's advocate) beliefs should be catered to on national media, I'd be quickly told to clear off as I knew what I was walking into.
I'm all for immigration and ethnic diversity but also believe that as an imigrant you have a duty at least to a point, to respect and integrate into the community you chose to join into.

Anyway I think we're ( possibly just me) drifting off point a bit.

Well that's a bit like saying that if you went to mainland China they wouldn't let you use Facebook, so we shouldn't let Chinese people in Ireland use RenRen (their version of FB). The idea is to be better than the oppressive states.

But yeah, that's really going off topic! :P

brightspark

robdonn wrote: »

Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, .

On the basis of that argument what could RTE broadcast?

Some people don't like soccer, so no soccer?
Some people don't like GAA no GAA?
Some people don't like pop music, so no pop music?
Some people don't like classical, so no classical music?
That would be ridiculous. You can't expect anything to appeal to everyone!

As I said earlier the Angelus represents less than 0.14% of one channels output, are you seriously suggesting that less that 0.14% of the population are practicing Catholics?

Press that channel change button, fast forward it if recorded, switch to Netflix, no one is forcing you to watch/listen to it.

Fred Swanson

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Absolam

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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In what way does it not cut ice though?
I think the (unoriginal) point comes up again and again because it's so obvious; choose any other programme that someone doesn't like on RTE, they'll simply switch channels without a moments thought. Which is what I suspect plenty of people do choose to do when the Angelus comes on.

How many posters sit through Nationwide, Nuacht, or Bressie's Teenage Kicks? None of these, as Robdonn would have it, 'represent all of us', but they're all of interest to some of us (apparently?); which a state owned broadcaster, unlike a commercial one, has an obligation to cater for.

Undoubtedly, there are always those who will complain loudly about being offended and oppressed when something at odds with their personal world view appears on 'our' national broadcaster. That's fair enough; whinging about inappropriate content on RTE is practically a tradition at this stage, going all the way back to the Bishop of Clonfert in 1966. Long may it continue; long may RTE continue to broadcast material that invites debate.

robdonn

brightspark wrote: »

On the basis of that argument what could RTE broadcast?

Some people don't like soccer, so no soccer?
Some people don't like GAA no GAA?
Some people don't like pop music, so no pop music?
Some people don't like classical, so no classical music?
That would be ridiculous. You can't expect anything to appeal to everyone!

I didn't say that RTE has to appeal to everyone, I said that it needs to represent everyone. Classical music is not a socially divisive dogma that causes violence around the world. GAA support is not a cultural division asked about in the census.

A religious call to prayer, if made available, should be made available to all major religions that operate in Ireland, and arguably smaller religions too. If this is untenable or too costly then there should be no call to prayer at all.

If the RCC wants to keep the Angelus then they can, they just have to pay for it themselves at an advertising rate suitable for the times that it is played.

brightspark wrote: »

As I said earlier the Angelus represents less than 0.14% of one channels output, are you seriously suggesting that less that 0.14% of the population are practicing Catholics?

Do you think that all practising Catholics tune in for the Angelus? As has been argued about in another thread, we don't have any reliable figures about the viewing statistics of the Angelus, so we have no idea how relevant it is.

brightspark wrote: »

Press that channel change button, fast forward it if recorded, switch to Netflix, no one is forcing you to watch/listen to it.

That is ignoring an issue, not solving it. But as I have said before, this is not the end-all of secular issues. Nobody loses sleep over this. But it is an ongoing issue that at the very least is a mild annoyance and at most it is a display of the RCC's unspoken hold on the core of our society.

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

How many posters sit through Nationwide, Nuacht, or Bressie's Teenage Kicks? None of these, as Robdonn would have it, 'represent all of us', but they're all of interest to some of us (apparently?); which a state owned broadcaster, unlike a commercial one, has an obligation to cater for.

Undoubtedly, there are always those who will complain loudly about being offended and oppressed when something at odds with their personal world view appears on 'our' national broadcaster. That's fair enough; whinging about inappropriate content on RTE is practically a tradition at this stage, going all the way back to the Bishop of Clonfert in 1966. Long may it continue; long may RTE continue to broadcast material that invites debate.

See my post above.
(And apologies for any weird spelling/grammar issues, my PC has no power so I'm typing these on my phone at the moment.)

jcd5971

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Again the default argument from the catholic dogma supporters. It does cut any ice anymore. You need to be more original.

I think you mean doesn't lol.

Fred Swanson

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robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

I think you mean doesn't lol.

If you don't like how he spells it then change the channel! :P

jcd5971

Only pulling your leg. Anyway I,think this is a big non issue rather than worrying about 30 secs to a minute of bells, there's other things to occupy the social justice warrior brigade.

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

If you don't like how he spells it then change the channel! :P

Normally don't pull the grammar/spelling lark I make enough mistakes myself, I just found that one funny as it kinda flipped his point 180

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Aye, some people are forced to listen to it in work...

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Normally don't pull the grammar/spelling lark I make enough mistakes myself, I just found that one funny as it kinda flipped his point 180

I wonder if Godwin's Law takes effect if I call you a grammar nazi. :P

jcd5971

God let's hope so... Or not God as the case may be :-)

Absolam

robdonn wrote: »

I didn't say that RTE has to appeal to everyone, I said that it needs to represent everyone. Classical music is not a socially divisive dogma that causes violence around the world. GAA support is not a cultural division asked about in the census.

GAA is certainly divisive though, and Bressie has been known to incite a desire for violence in my house.
I don't see how anyone imagines that RTE should, or even more could represent everyone. Provide something of interest to everyone at one point or another? Sure. Provide something relevant to everyone? Maybe. But none of the four programmes I mentioned even come close to being of interest to, or relevant to, never mind representative of, everyone.

robdonn wrote: »

A religious call to prayer, if made available, should be made available to all major religions that operate in Ireland, and arguably smaller religions too. If this is untenable or too costly then there should be no call to prayer at all.

To the first part, sure, why not. To the second, why? If you can't please all of the people all of the time, you can still please some of the people some of the time. We don't say if everyone can't live in a house, no one can live in a house. We do what we can to make sure everyone can live in a house. And we acknowledge that some people are always going to have bigger houses, though if you're American you can pretend that everyone who tries hard enough will get one too.

robdonn wrote: »

If the RCC wants to keep the Angelus then they can, they just have to pay for it themselves at an advertising rate suitable for the times that it is played.

But the Catholic Church hasn't asked for it as advertising, has it? RTE say they believe their audience want it; and the audience is already paying for it with their licence fees.

robdonn wrote: »

Do you think that all practising Catholics tune in for the Angelus? As has been argued about in another thread, we don't have any reliable figures about the viewing statistics of the Angelus, so we have no idea how relevant it is.

We don't have reliable figures about the viewing statistics of any programme on RTE though. Quite possibly not a single Muslim tuned in for Ramadan Diary; we have no reliable figures to say that they did. I don't think an absence of knowledge is a great justification for calling on RTE to change their programming though; after all, they do have reliable figures on viewing statistics for all of their programmes, and have been known to make decisions based on them. As they should.

robdonn wrote: »

That is ignoring an issue, not solving it. But as I have said before, this is not the end-all of secular issues. Nobody loses sleep over this. But it is an ongoing issue that at the very least is a mild annoyance and at most it is a display of the RCC's unspoken hold on the core of our society.

I don't think so; the programme itself is hardly an issue, as you've said, the Angelus itself is not a socially divisive dogma that causes violence around the world, nor is it a a cultural division asked about in the census (though cultural divisions aren't asked about in the census).
The issue is what people feel the Angelus represents. Not what they feel it represents, but what they feel it represents. And if you feel a tv programme represents something you don't want to engage with, changing the channel absolutely solves your problem.

Fred Swanson

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Huntergonzo

Anyone else think the angelus is just there to satisfy idiots, or at very least to knock whatever brain cells you had left out of you with a big loud BONG! (Surrender your reason) BONG! (Surrender your logic) BONG! (Surrender to our God).

Absolam

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Viewers might though?

Hotblack Desiato

branie2 wrote: »

I liked the religious paintings in the original Angelus

I like ice cream. But I don't think that everyone in Ireland should be made to consume it, even only a little bit...

robdonn wrote: »

If the RCC wants to keep the Angelus then they can, they just have to pay for it themselves at an advertising rate suitable for the times that it is played.

Ironically, religious advertising on radio and TV is illegal in Ireland, the free promotion RTE gives to the RC church (and to a far lesser extent, some others) is not.

brightspark

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I like ice cream. But I don't think that everyone in Ireland should be made to consume it, even only a little bit...

Made to consume it? I wasn't aware watching RTE1 at 12 and 6 was mandatory!

As I said earlier it's no longer 1978 with just one channel available, and you don't even need to get out of your chair to watch something else.

Hotblack Desiato

It's still imposing it on people, even though there has always been an off switch, and other Irish TV channels have been available since 1978

Why should RTE be in the business of promoting a particular religion at all? Nobody can provide an adequate answer for this. If we didn't have the angelus on TV and radio already, we wouldn't introduce it now, it's simply a relic of an extremely harmful period of Ireland's 20th century history, and calls to retain it are simply appeals to tradition.

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's still imposing it on people, even though there has always been an off switch, and other Irish TV channels have been available since 1978

By that logic, every single tv programme is imposed on people. Should we simply ban television, or is there a particular level of imposition that you feel is appropriate?
How closely those that level align with your own particular viewpoint, as distinct from being entirely acceptable to every single viewpoint in Ireland?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Why should RTE be in the business of promoting a particular religion at all? Nobody can provide an adequate answer for this. If we didn't have the angelus on TV and radio already, we wouldn't introduce it now, it's simply a relic of an extremely harmful period of Ireland's 20th century history, and calls to retain it are simply appeals to tradition.

Nobody has adequately explained how RTE is in the business of promoting a particular religion at all, which may explain why nobody has suggested a reason why it could be.
Can you show that the Angelus in any way advocates the benefits of, or encourages membership of Catholicism? Actually, can you show it says anything about Catholisim at all? I think RTE would need to seriously step up the content before you could reasonably say the Angelus promotes a religion. And if we didn't have it already, would there be any outcry if RTE did decide to introduce it? I suspect the objections raised against the Angelus have far more to do with the associations some people create for themselves than with what it actually is.