Angelus

expectationlost

Retention of angelus praised for cultural significance http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/07/08/4038810-retention-of-angelus-praised-for-cultural-significance/

by Michael Healey Rae http://www.mainevalleypost.com/2015/07/08/angelus-inclusion-in-moment-of-reflection-rte-be-praised-michael-healy-rae-td/

However RTE has announced that the 18 peals of the angelus bell would be retained under any proposals to develop the popular programme.

where they announce what? did they ever say they were getting rid of the bells even for one day a week? I don't think so.

http://www.rte.ie/commissioning/angelus.html such smug bs

Dades

Given it's a non-issue, afaic, I'll all for the proposal.

I like the idea of allowing filmmakers one spot a week to mix it up. With some creativity some pretty good "secular" style films could be made in conjunction with/despite the bells.

expectationlost

Dades wrote: »

Given it's a non-issue, afaic, I'll all for the proposal.

I like the idea of allowing filmmakers one spot a week to mix it up. With some creativity some pretty good "secular" style films could be made in conjunction with/despite the bells.

they already did it http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/681-history-of-rte/708-rte-2000s/289926-the-angelus-office/ in 2009

robdonn

Dades wrote: »

With some creativity some pretty good "secular" style films could be made in conjunction with/despite the bells.

With the bells in place all films, no matter how secular, will have a literal Catholic overtone. They might as well have a line of text at the bottom reading "This secular message of harmony was brought to you by Catholicism."

Kidchameleon

Secular bells would be fine. The RCC don't own the copyright for bell ringing

robdonn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Secular bells would be fine. The RCC don't own the copyright for bell ringing

They also don't own the copyright on pieces of wood, but arrange them in a cross and the message is clear. The Angelus bells have a very distinct pattern that is associated with the RCC.

expectationlost

robdonn wrote: »

They also don't own the copyright on pieces of wood, but arrange them in a cross and the message is clear. The Angelus bells have a very distinct pattern that is associated with the RCC.

The Origins of the Angelus on Radio Éireann
http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-origins-of-the-angelus-on-radio-eireann/ presume is still a recording of the pro-Cathedrale beels it dos have a nice crackle to it.

and the 3-3-3-9 arrangement http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/8297/the-pattern-for-ringing-the-angelus/p1

Meanwhile Roger Childs making **** up as he goes along for a long time

The station broke with 50 years’ of tradition on Good Friday by ringing the Angelus bells on television, contrary to Catholic practice. An RTE spokeswoman said a decision had been made not to suspend the daily broadcast, as has been the custom on Good Friday and Easter Saturday in keeping with Catholic observance.
“RTE is funded by and exists to serve licence-payers of all faiths and none,” she said. “It has a legal mandate to reflect all aspects of national culture including, specifically, religious belief and practice.”
Despite the decision by Roger Childs, the editor of religious programmes, RTE Radio took the more traditional approach and failed to ring the bells on either day.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1012435.ece http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/angelus-chimes-kept-ringing-for-first-time-26840992.html

expectationlost

Healy-Raes plead for the Angelus' salvation http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/healyraes-plead-for-the-angelus-salvation-31393595.html

"Whatever good The Angelus does it hurts no one. There are about 900 channels on TVs now so if people don't like it they can change the channel," said Cllr Johnny Healy Rae.
those 900 channels arn't RTE

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Well, you have RTE Two, RTE Jr., TV3, TG4, 3e, UTV Ireland, and RTE News Now (do they play the Angelus on RTE NN?) at least partly funded by the licence, I think, so there is choice...
Or, you could watch the headlines on BBC, then switch to the local news.

expectationlost

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Well, you have RTE Two, RTE Jr., TV3, TG4, 3e, UTV Ireland, and RTE News Now (do they play the Angelus on RTE NN?) at least partly funded by the licence, I think, so there is choice...
Or, you could watch the headlines on BBC, then switch to the local news.

those are not the channels that Healy-Rae was talking about.

Absolam

expectationlost wrote: »

those are not the channels the Healy-Rae were talking about.

Are they not some of the 900 channels they mentioned that aren't showing the Angelus, and some of them are RTE, unlike what you said?
Though you haven't mentioned why in your opinion, of those 900 channels, RTE ought not to broadcast the Angelus rather than any of the other 899.

Kidchameleon

robdonn wrote: »

They also don't own the copyright on pieces of wood, but arrange them in a cross and the message is clear. The Angelus bells have a very distinct pattern that is associated with the RCC.

That's why I suggested secular bells. Read my post again.

galljga1

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That's why I suggested secular bells. Read my post again.

Tubular Bells?

Kidchameleon

galljga1 wrote: »

Tubular Bells?

Meditation bells. Anything but Angelus bells would be fine.

galljga1

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Meditation bells. Anything but Angelus bells would be fine.

I still have to flip the station when the nonsense that is the angelus comes on. It still angers me that we were forced to mumble that absolute garbage as kids whenever those meaningless bells were played. As for the rosary....

Currently listening to Tubular Bells which is quite soothing.

magicbastarder

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

Or, you could watch the headlines on BBC, then switch to the local news.

a way of avoiding something is not an excuse in and of itself for that something.

if i am pummelling you because you are standing in front of me, i don't think you'd accept a 'but if you stood somewhere else, i wouldn't be pummelling you' excuse from me.

Absolam

magicbastarder wrote: »

a way of avoiding something is not an excuse in and of itself for that something. if i am pummelling you because you are standing in front of me, i don't think you'd accept a 'but if you stood somewhere else, i wouldn't be pummelling you' excuse from me.

So... no channel should be allowed to broadcast something you might not like, because you shouldn't have to change the channel?

magicbastarder

that's not what i said. i (quite intentionally) used the phrase 'an excuse in and of itself'. a response to criticism of an aspect of programming of 'you can always change the channel' is a way of ducking the criticism rather than responding to it.

the fact that RTE 1 is our primary national - and publically owned - TV channel, is a major part of this discussion. i couldn't give two ****es if the 'evangelical channel of god' played the angelus as i've no input to it and it has no agenda to represent and serve the irish public fairly. i think it's fair to say that RTE1 does.

expectationlost

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Meditation bells. Anything but Angelus bells would be fine.

googles Meditation bells ...ugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1zy9KipXwM

would these "Secualr bells" still be played at 12 and 6?

Hotblack Desiato

'you can always change the channel' is as worthless an excuse as 'you can always set up your own school'

Kidchameleon

expectationlost wrote: »

would these "Secualr bells" still be played at 12 and 6?

Dont see why not

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

magicbastarder wrote: »

a way of avoiding something is not an excuse in and of itself for that something.

if i am pummelling you because you are standing in front of me, i don't think you'd accept a 'but if you stood somewhere else, i wouldn't be pummelling you' excuse from me.

well, i mightn't be entirely happy with the solution, but I probably would move...

expectationlost

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Dont see why not

why would they be played at 12 and 6?

robdonn

expectationlost wrote: »

why would they be played at 12 and 6?

National call to lunch and dinner?

lazygal

robdonn wrote: »

National call to lunch and dinner?

Real Irish people have their dinner and tea. What's the lunch thing about?

Kidchameleon

expectationlost wrote: »

why would they be played at 12 and 6?

Why wouldn't they? They are not Angelus bells we are discussing. If I fart into a megaphone at 6 and 12 o'clock does that automatically make it an Angelus?

expectationlost

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? They are not Angelus bells we are discussing. If I fart into a megaphone at 6 and 12 o'clock does that automatically make it an Angelus?

no we are discussing the Angelus a Catholic call to pray that played at 12 an d 6 on National Broadcaster.

Kidchameleon

expectationlost wrote: »

yesno we are discussing the Angelus a Catholic call to pray that played at 12 an d 6 on National Broadcaster.

Eh no...

expectationlost wrote: »

would these "Secualr bells" still be played at 12 and 6?

brightspark

I don't understand why people complain so much about it.

Pre 1978, only one TV channel, few video recorders and probably no remote control it would make sense to object to it.

Now we have more channels than I can be bothered to count, more online content than anyone could possibly watch and remote controls so we barely have to move to select whatever we want to see or not see.

It's just a minute, twice a day on one TV channel, that's roughly 0.14% of that channels daily output. If just 1% of the population want it I think it's fair to broadcast it.

I usually have reached for the remote and pressed it before the first bell has finished!

Can we have a campaign to stop Fair City being broadcast instead?

jcd5971

Who cares let the catholics have their holy bells,it's not a big deal not religious my self at all but in non Catholic countries they do their thing so let them do their thing here, afterall it is the main religion of the country like it or not ( not personally)

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Who cares let the catholics have their holy bells,it's not a big deal not religious my self at all but in non Catholic countries they do their thing so let them do their thing here, afterall it is the main religion of the country like it or not ( not personally)

It is the religion that the majority of people identify with, but it is not a Catholic country.

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

It is the religion that the majority of people identify with, but it is not a Catholic country.

That's just semantics you know what point I was making so I'm happy enough

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

That's just semantics you know what point I was making so I'm happy enough

I do understand the point you were making, sorry if my response seemed flippant. The argument that we should allow the majority Catholic have their bells is an argumentum ad populum. There is an entire other thread discussing this and has one of the best retorts to this, focusing on whether RTE should be showing the Angelus as a state-run broadcaster, so I'll just quote it here:

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Firstly, the popularity of the Angelus is speculative at best. We have no real survey data on people's motivation for watching the Angelus and we have no actual viewing figures, just an average figure from six years ago (when I might add, the content of the Angelus was quite different). So we can't really determine how popular the Angelus is as a broadcast item.

Secondly, if popularity is to be a motivating factor then, in the context of your commercial argument, it would have to draw viewers in which advertisers wish to target. Firstly, we don't know without survey data, how many viewers, if any, are tuning in because of the Angelus. Secondly, the breakdown of the last census by religion and Age shows that about only about 30% of the nominal catholics fall within RTE Television's key demographic (i.e. 15-34 year olds). So exactly how many 15-34 year olds do you think are tuning in just for the Angelus? Just how many commercially relevant viewers do you think RTE would lose if it were to scrap the Angelus?

Thirdly, one of the key commitments of RTE is to deliver a value for money service to its license payers. In its FAQ on the TV license, RTE refers to advertising as something it needs to do to cover its cost, not something it is interested in growing:

"The majority of RTÉ’s activities are of a public service nature. The cost of providing these services, however, exceeds the amount of licence fee revenue which RTÉ receives. As a result, RTÉ engages in commercial activities to bridge the funding gap."

Furthermore, in its Annual Report, RTE's operating deficit is not something which they commit to tackle through increasing their advertising revenue but rather through cutting costs:

"RTÉ should continue to give priority to eliminating the financial deficit and further cost reductions should be implemented. Indecon are concerned that RTÉ continues to run a large deficit as this impacts on the future viability of RTÉ."

While we're on the subject of RTE's commitments, its commitments actually include the following:

Objective 1C: Promote inclusiveness and diversity

Given that the Angelus is a specifically catholic call to prayer and has limited or no interest even for other christian denominations and also that catholic oriented broadcasting is given a disproportionate amount of the religious programming, how is retaining the Angelus fulfilling RTE's commitment under this objective.


Objective 1D: Retain existing and attract new audiences through the provision of relevant services

Given, as has been previously discussed, the increasing diversity of the Irish population, how is a catholic call to prayer going to be relevant in attracting a new audience. Since it cannot be demonstrated that it's even relevant to the existing audience, there doesn't seem to be a case for keeping the Angelus given this commitment above.


Objective 4: Effectively manage RTÉ’s finances into the future through optimising funding sources and controlling costs.

So, if RTE were to scrap the Angelus, the airtime could be devoted to expanding the religious programming to other religions. This would make a degree of commercial sense since a larger percentage of Muslims, for example, fall within the target demographic than Catholics. Alternatively, if the minute per day were given to advertising, then the station could generate an extra €4m in ad revenue not to mention saving the approximately €96k that the Angelus costs to broadcast per annum.


In summary, your argument for popularity outlined here:

"I'm sticking with the appeal to popularity; the most logically sound reason for a broadcaster to broadcast anything."

doesn't really hold up to scrutiny for several reasons. Firstly, we don't know how popular the Angelus actually is. Secondly, you haven't presented an argument why popularity should be the sole concern of the broadcaster and why other concerns such as its commitments to inclusiveness and diversity ought to be ignored. Finally, you haven't presented any evidence to suggest that removing the Angelus would in any way negatively impact on the commercial revenue of RTE and hence its reason for keeping it.


Sources

RTE Annual Report 2011

RTE Public Service Statement 2010

RTE Annual Statement of Performance Commitments 2014

RTE Public Funding Review 2011

RTE License fee FAQ

branie2

I liked the religious paintings in the original Angelus

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

I do understand the point you were making, sorry if my response seemed flippant. The argument that we should allow the majority Catholic have their bells is an argumentum ad populum. There is an entire other thread discussing this and has one of the best retorts to this, focusing on whether RTE should be showing the Angelus as a state-run broadcaster, so I'll just quote it here:

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

lazygal

jcd5971 wrote: »

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

This is nonsense. There is no such call from any lgbt community, despite idiots like Senator Healy Eames.

It's only when you step outside the Catholic crap that you realise how bonkers it is to have a Catholic call to prayer on a national broadcaster and how mad it is that people continue to defend it. I am Irish, despite not being Catholic, as are my children. If this is a Catholic country, what are we then?

jcd5971

lazygal wrote: »

This is nonsense. There is no such call from any lgbt community, despite idiots like Senator Healy Eames.

It's only when you step outside the Catholic crap that you realise how bonkers it is to have a Catholic call to prayer on a national broadcaster and how mad it is that people continue to defend it. I am Irish, despite not being Catholic, as are my children. If this is a Catholic country, what are we then?

I suspected it was nonsense hence the (allegedly). I was just using it as an easy example of the point I was trying to make, as I said a bit of a tangent (sorry).

Not religious myself at all but don't mind the Angelus for some reason.

Not Catholic myself either like your goodself I consider myself un-perturbed by catholicism being represented on state broadcaster as it is the majority religion of the religious ( if you get me ðŸ˜) and as an atheist I object to it no more than I object to fair city being on all the time even tho I'm not from Dublin ( strange analogy I know probably a poor attempt at humour also)

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Yeah I actually agree with you but, my counter is that it is so harmless and ingrained in tradition, that it just strikes another of neutrals as nit picking and turns people against the overall point. I hate to tangent off into the distance but it reminds me of an article in a Sunday newspaper where the lgbt community (allegedly) called for the abolition of mothers and fathers day and have a parents day instead. I was actually surprised by the level of vitriol that some usually open minded friends came out with.

The argument could be made that in another situation, say with a privately owned broadcaster, then it would absolutely be nit-picking. But as a state-owned broadcaster, it is essentially an arm of the government in a way and thus we have to hold them to higher standards. Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, and since it is highly unlikely that they'll play Muslim calls to prayer, then they should just scrap it altogether.

But don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone sees the Angelus as the battlefield they wish to give their life on, those who strive for a secular Ireland have their sights set on bigger issues such as school patronage, religious ramblings in the constitution and so forth. I think the Angelus is just one of those (literally) daily reminders that religious influences in most aspects of our daily lives are just accepted as culture.

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

The argument could be made that in another situation, say with a privately owned broadcaster, then it would absolutely be nit-picking. But as a state-owned broadcaster, it is essentially an arm of the government in a way and thus we have to hold them to higher standards. Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, and since it is highly unlikely that they'll play Muslim calls to prayer, then they should just scrap it altogether.

But don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone sees the Angelus as the battlefield they wish to give their life on, those who strive for a secular Ireland have their sights set on bigger issues such as school patronage, religious ramblings in the constitution and so forth. I think the Angelus is just one of those (literally) daily reminders that religious influences in most aspects of our daily lives are just accepted as culture.

Don't want to get myself in trouble here but whatever about catholics who at least have a cultural and historic claim to relevance in the country, I don't think we should pander to Muslim indignation too much, if I emigrate to Saudi or UAE and start demanding my Catholic ( I'm not Catholic just devil's advocate) beliefs should be catered to on national media, I'd be quickly told to clear off as I knew what I was walking into.
I'm all for immigration and ethnic diversity but also believe that as an imigrant you have a duty at least to a point, to respect and integrate into the community you chose to join into.

Anyway I think we're ( possibly just me) drifting off point a bit.

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

Don't want to get myself in trouble here but whatever about catholics who at least have a cultural and historic claim to relevance in the country, I don't think we should pander to Muslim indignation too much, if I emigrate to Saudi or UAE and start demanding my Catholic ( I'm not Catholic just devil's advocate) beliefs should be catered to on national media, I'd be quickly told to clear off as I knew what I was walking into.
I'm all for immigration and ethnic diversity but also believe that as an imigrant you have a duty at least to a point, to respect and integrate into the community you chose to join into.

Anyway I think we're ( possibly just me) drifting off point a bit.

Well that's a bit like saying that if you went to mainland China they wouldn't let you use Facebook, so we shouldn't let Chinese people in Ireland use RenRen (their version of FB). The idea is to be better than the oppressive states.

But yeah, that's really going off topic! :P

brightspark

robdonn wrote: »

Everyone's money pays for RTE so it should represent all of us, .

On the basis of that argument what could RTE broadcast?

Some people don't like soccer, so no soccer?
Some people don't like GAA no GAA?
Some people don't like pop music, so no pop music?
Some people don't like classical, so no classical music?
That would be ridiculous. You can't expect anything to appeal to everyone!

As I said earlier the Angelus represents less than 0.14% of one channels output, are you seriously suggesting that less that 0.14% of the population are practicing Catholics?

Press that channel change button, fast forward it if recorded, switch to Netflix, no one is forcing you to watch/listen to it.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Absolam

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In what way does it not cut ice though?
I think the (unoriginal) point comes up again and again because it's so obvious; choose any other programme that someone doesn't like on RTE, they'll simply switch channels without a moments thought. Which is what I suspect plenty of people do choose to do when the Angelus comes on.

How many posters sit through Nationwide, Nuacht, or Bressie's Teenage Kicks? None of these, as Robdonn would have it, 'represent all of us', but they're all of interest to some of us (apparently?); which a state owned broadcaster, unlike a commercial one, has an obligation to cater for.

Undoubtedly, there are always those who will complain loudly about being offended and oppressed when something at odds with their personal world view appears on 'our' national broadcaster. That's fair enough; whinging about inappropriate content on RTE is practically a tradition at this stage, going all the way back to the Bishop of Clonfert in 1966. Long may it continue; long may RTE continue to broadcast material that invites debate.

robdonn

brightspark wrote: »

On the basis of that argument what could RTE broadcast?

Some people don't like soccer, so no soccer?
Some people don't like GAA no GAA?
Some people don't like pop music, so no pop music?
Some people don't like classical, so no classical music?
That would be ridiculous. You can't expect anything to appeal to everyone!

I didn't say that RTE has to appeal to everyone, I said that it needs to represent everyone. Classical music is not a socially divisive dogma that causes violence around the world. GAA support is not a cultural division asked about in the census.

A religious call to prayer, if made available, should be made available to all major religions that operate in Ireland, and arguably smaller religions too. If this is untenable or too costly then there should be no call to prayer at all.

If the RCC wants to keep the Angelus then they can, they just have to pay for it themselves at an advertising rate suitable for the times that it is played.

brightspark wrote: »

As I said earlier the Angelus represents less than 0.14% of one channels output, are you seriously suggesting that less that 0.14% of the population are practicing Catholics?

Do you think that all practising Catholics tune in for the Angelus? As has been argued about in another thread, we don't have any reliable figures about the viewing statistics of the Angelus, so we have no idea how relevant it is.

brightspark wrote: »

Press that channel change button, fast forward it if recorded, switch to Netflix, no one is forcing you to watch/listen to it.

That is ignoring an issue, not solving it. But as I have said before, this is not the end-all of secular issues. Nobody loses sleep over this. But it is an ongoing issue that at the very least is a mild annoyance and at most it is a display of the RCC's unspoken hold on the core of our society.

robdonn

Absolam wrote: »

How many posters sit through Nationwide, Nuacht, or Bressie's Teenage Kicks? None of these, as Robdonn would have it, 'represent all of us', but they're all of interest to some of us (apparently?); which a state owned broadcaster, unlike a commercial one, has an obligation to cater for.

Undoubtedly, there are always those who will complain loudly about being offended and oppressed when something at odds with their personal world view appears on 'our' national broadcaster. That's fair enough; whinging about inappropriate content on RTE is practically a tradition at this stage, going all the way back to the Bishop of Clonfert in 1966. Long may it continue; long may RTE continue to broadcast material that invites debate.

See my post above.
(And apologies for any weird spelling/grammar issues, my PC has no power so I'm typing these on my phone at the moment.)

jcd5971

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Again the default argument from the catholic dogma supporters. It does cut any ice anymore. You need to be more original.

I think you mean doesn't lol.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

robdonn

jcd5971 wrote: »

I think you mean doesn't lol.

If you don't like how he spells it then change the channel! :P

jcd5971

Only pulling your leg. Anyway I,think this is a big non issue rather than worrying about 30 secs to a minute of bells, there's other things to occupy the social justice warrior brigade.

jcd5971

robdonn wrote: »

If you don't like how he spells it then change the channel! :P

Normally don't pull the grammar/spelling lark I make enough mistakes myself, I just found that one funny as it kinda flipped his point 180

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Aye, some people are forced to listen to it in work...