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The Federations Economy after the Dominion War
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helimachoptor wrote: »at least 4 weak points.. all the nacelles are uncovered (front and back) also when the Defiant is evacuated, the escape pods arent under armour they come straight out, now the pods could be armoured but probably unlikely
The nacelles are almost completely covered, there's two points that you mention but a Defiant class ship in battle mode isn't going to be standing still to allow pin point accuracy of a phaser burst, or torpedo. In the years we've seen the Defiant in action, not once was another ship able to exploit these little gaps. I would think those escape pods are covered on one side with ablative armour, to line up with the armour on the hull...I don't think such an obvious flaw would have gotten past the whiteboard stage...& they'd be risking the loss of an entire ship for the sake of a small surface area of armour otherwise.Oh no doubt it works both ways, i am just pointing out that we shouldn't point to the destruction of the Enterprise by cloak and dagger methods without doing the same for the Defiant. If we are to quote a BoP taking out a Galaxy, we should take into account that there is context there which, if removed, means the BoP wouldn't stand a chance.
Indeed, I don't think anyone is making the point that a BoP would have destroyed the Enterprise in an every day situation - what is being said though, is that without its shields, it didn't seem to last more than what, five or six hits? Contrasting this to the Defiant, which took an absolute pummelling with no shields on several occasions, it would seem that if a Defiant class ship was able to weaken the shields of a Galaxy class ship, that Galaxy is in serious trouble. One would think, that with quantum torpedoes, weakening the shields of a Galaxy class ship wouldn't be out of reach of the Defiant (and again, we're talking stock Galaxy here...not something brought up to speed like the Lakota).Since the Breen weren't disabled, i would posit that if Data rigged the energy blast, he would do so in a way that wouldn't affect his own ship.
I don't know, personally I prefer to stay within the realms of canon for these things because you could speculate to high heaven about what wonder weapons Data or 7 could design in an instant
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The nacelles are almost completely covered, there's two points that you mention but a Defiant class ship in battle mode isn't going to be standing still to allow pin point accuracy of a phaser burst, or torpedo. In the years we've seen the Defiant in action, not once was another ship able to exploit these little gaps. I would think those escape pods are covered on one side with ablative armour, to line up with the armour on the hull...I don't think such an obvious flaw would have gotten past the whiteboard stage...& they'd be risking the loss of an entire ship for the sake of a small surface area of armour otherwise.
Indeed, I don't think anyone is making the point that a BoP would have destroyed the Enterprise in an every day situation - what is being said though, is that without its shields, it didn't seem to last more than what, five or six hits? Contrasting this to the Defiant, which took an absolute pummelling with no shields on several occasions, it would seem that if a Defiant class ship was able to weaken the shields of a Galaxy class ship, that Galaxy is in serious trouble. One would think, that with quantum torpedoes, weakening the shields of a Galaxy class ship wouldn't be out of reach of the Defiant (and again, we're talking stock Galaxy here...not something brought up to speed like the Lakota).
I don't know, personally I prefer to stay within the realms of canon for these things because you could speculate to high heaven about what wonder weapons Data or 7 could design in an instant
Yeah but we gotta speculate or end up with Voyager being invincible, given it goes up against the Borg how often?0 -
Indeed, I don't think anyone is making the point that a BoP would have destroyed the Enterprise in an every day situation - what is being said though, is that without its shields, it didn't seem to last more than what, five or six hits? Contrasting this to the Defiant, which took an absolute pummelling with no shields on several occasions, it would seem that if a Defiant class ship was able to weaken the shields of a Galaxy class ship, that Galaxy is in serious trouble. One would think, that with quantum torpedoes, weakening the shields of a Galaxy class ship wouldn't be out of reach of the Defiant (and again, we're talking stock Galaxy here...not something brought up to speed like the Lakota).
No problem with that reasoning. The Galaxy relies upon its shields, the Defiant relies on its armour. The point i am trying to make (apologies if i muddle it) is that said massive failure of shields (with little or no return fire or evasive action) was an extremely rare occurance, so while the Galaxy would have a hard time without shields, i don't think the Defiant would get those shields down as cleanly or easily, even with quantums, as the BoP did with trickery - certainly not without retaliation that would indeed do damage to the Defiant.
I just think the multiple phaser banks and multiple torpedo tubes of the Galaxy will get the job done. The Defiant would do damage, but not enough i reckon.I don't know, personally I prefer to stay within the realms of canon for these things because you could speculate to high heaven about what wonder weapons Data or 7 could design in an instant
This is true
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Deleted User wrote: »Yeah but we gotta speculate or end up with Voyager being invincible, given it goes up against the Borg how often?
Aye nothing wrong with speculation, but I like to speculate based off what we've seen on screen though (evidence), which in turn lends itself to rational reasoning, rather than wild hypothetical ideas. Both can be fun, but in these scenarios, any facts have to play a part in the discussion otherwise what's the pointNo problem with that reasoning. The Galaxy relies upon its shields, the Defiant relies on its armour. The point i am trying to make (apologies if i muddle it) is that said massive failure of shields (with little or no return fire or evasive action) was an extremely rare occurance, so while the Galaxy would have a hard time without shields, i don't think the Defiant would get the Quantums off as cleanly or easily as the BoP did - certainly not without retaliation that would indeed do damage to the Defiant.
Indeed, a Galaxy class ship is going to pose a huge risk to any little Defiant class ship. I think though, given its speed & manoeuvrability, it'd be able to get enough Quantums off to leave the Galaxy reeling. The power of those quantums cannot be overstated, they've devastating...& can be seen to destroy ships in a handful of hits that a Galaxy class ship would spend all day trying to do. A Defiant class ship would face a sustained pummeling , no doubt there, but I think she'd be able for it given what we've seen on screen.0 -
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One of the problems with the Galaxy vs the Defiant, is most of our exposure to the Galaxy was during TNG. They never really showed it do anything other than sit there and fire a few torpedos. In Best of Both Worlds it really opened up a few times and showed it's potential firepower, but there was never fleet battles like we saw in DS9. The few times it's shown in DS9, it's a pretty serious powerhouse. A Galaxy takes out a Galor class ship with a few phaser hits in Sacrifice of Angels. That's where i see the Galaxy doing well. 360 degree arc with really powerful phasers.
The other issue is TNG and DS9 had very different versions of shields. We never saw the bubble shields we saw in TNG during DS9 battles, and it often seemed like there were no shields at all. Loads of times in DS9 the first shot hits the ships hull.
I still say a Galaxy with similar tech level weapons will take out a Defiant class any day of the week. And a Sovereign would take out both.
+1
The Galaxy was surprisingly well armed for the era of Trek it came from. I possessed the Rick Stenbeck Enterprised-D blueprints and a fairly decent model of 1701-D and I was always taken a-back by the amount of Phaser strips the ship had.
In addtion to both of the long strips above and below the saucer-section, you had another long strip under the secondary hull near the deflector, as well as 2 more on the back of the back of the 'neck', 4 more near the aft photon port, and finally 2 more: one on each nacelle pylon.
It could attack from any angle, and assuming the Tactical officer was a good enough aim, he/she could probably hit anything coming towards the ship.
Although, trying to compare a TNG Galaxy to DS9's Defiant, feels like trying to compare Dad's Army to Kelly's Heroes. Back in TNG, the Federation was drunk on how awesome they were, and wallowed in their role as the galaxies' policemen. Starfleet and the ships of the time kind of reflected that.
"Lets wear BRIGHT RED uniforms and move through space real slow while telling idiot aliens to stop warring with each other! Yay! Federation!!"
Then of course, we get the Borg, the Cardassians start messing about, the Romulans are back, and for a brief while the Klingons were baddies again. It's then that we start seeing a more militarized Startfleet that consider that the Federation is potentially in danger from any hostile race with enough tech. This seems to nicely fall in with an improvement in SFX technology, where we can actually get to see a starship perform 'evasive maneuvers' (instead of it just go the the right slightly. Why even bothing giving them 'pattern' designations if Maneuver Pattern A-G are all the same thing?
)
So in the Dominion war, we get to see the end of TNG crews and ships, and more of a war-machine in development with the Defiant in the lead since she was the first Fed warship for a long while.
I would recon that a Dominion War-hardened Galaxy crew would give any Defiant a run for it's money, especially if they had spent their war trying to stop hundreds of little Jem Hadar raiders from doing suicide runs against them. A Defiant running around them would be a very familiar target in that respect, and probably wouldn't last long.
Against a TNG crew, the Galaxy would be toast.0 -
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I'd agree with that, going off the assumption that any Galaxy class ship that survived the war had been brought up to date in terms of defensive systems
This is actually the most amicable resolution to a discussion i have ever had on Boards.
This forum must be some sort of utopian Federation style paradise.0 -
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