Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

KildareFan

I think it reads something like

dispensatione ab impedimento disparitatis cultus a S. sede JB [the inititials of the celebrant]

A loose translation is dispensation from the impediment of disparity of cult by the Holy See [i.e. the Vatican] - see application for dispensation here http://ossory.ie/2010/10/application-for-dispensation-from-the-impediment-of-disparity-of-cult/

The disparity of cult marriage is between a baptised catholic and non baptised person - e.g. jewish.

KildareFan

Just a suggestion - would it be possible to put up a sticky with translations of latin annotations on the registers?

pinkypinky

Great suggestion Kildarefan I'll open a new thread.

MaryJoNY

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632309#page/31/mode/1up

Crosses beside Names on Parish Register

http://imgur.com/a/gvJRw


Can someone tell me what this cross means?

On some pages it looks like a t for a shortened Bridget and Margaret, but then it's also beside names like Ann, Ellen and Catherine.
It is also used with the full name of Bridget and with Peggy.

On some pages it looks like a symbol for "and" between the marrying parties but then it's not used on all entries on the page.

KildareFan

It looks like + is being used for 'and', but it's not consistently used on the page.

Jellybaby1

KildareFan wrote: »

It looks like + is being used for 'and', but it's not consistently used on the page.

I would agree with you. Its an Ampersand (&).

Natonstan

Can anyone make out the mothers maiden name on the record for Catherine, it's the first record on the list, also I'm 99% certain the birthplace says Drummond, which makes sense as her husband was born in the townland next to Drummond.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03583/2320802.pdf

mickmackey1

^^ Fitzsimon

oceanclub

http://i.imgur.com/Wi5rJ4m.png

Having trouble with Residence at Time of Marriage; I presume the lower value, "Clare", relates to the bride, any idea what the top value is?

Also, were both fathers dead at the time (it looks like it's marked as so). Finally, both were farmers? (Is DO to the right of Jer Moloney mean Ditto?

P.

pedroeibar1

oceanclub wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Wi5rJ4m.png

Having trouble with Residence at Time of Marriage; I presume the lower value, "Clare", relates to the bride, any idea what the top value is?

Also, were both fathers dead at the time (it looks like it's marked as so). Finally, both were farmers? (Is DO to the right of Jer Moloney mean Ditto?

P.

Groom's address looka like Clooncommon.
Agreed on both fathers being dead and Do for Ditto.

pinkypinky

What does it say beside Ester Hall in the attached?
It's from St Andrews 1813

tabbey

pinkypinky wrote: »

What does it say beside Ester Hall in the attached?
It's from St Andrews 1813

It looks like inventam / invenlam.

Is it St Andrew's RC or C of I ?

pinkypinky

RC

pedroeibar1

Pinky,
It looks like 'vivendam' to me, the gerundive of 'vivo' (I live) but in the feminine & accusative case, to match Ester - so it could mean 'living' or 'survivor' ?? What is the context?

EDIT - is it inviviendam, meaning 'not living' e.g. the image is a baptism and the child died ?

pinkypinky

That's weird. As in maybe the baby was very sick and died subsequently?

KildareFan

there are no parents listed - the root word 'invend' means 'unsold' - maybe she was abandoned?

pedroeibar1

Assuming that the word is ‘invivendam’, (in=not, vivendam = living) I’d suggest that the individual was not expected to live / was on the point of death. I think ‘abandoned’ would be relictam, or abrelectam, ( I cannot think what else the word might be…but open to suggestions.)

It is a weird entry. Ester Hall. No parents named like those before/after her, no ‘S’ before Sarah Kelly, so is Sarah the sponsor or the mother? And if the surname is Hall and the mother is Kelly, why no ‘Illeg.’ mention? Could it be an adult baptism, someone who was unsure as to whether or not they were baptised and about to die? Someone who was a practicing RC and not a convert, as my Shanahan ancestor was and had ‘conversa’ after her adult baptism entry. Pinky, have you any other info on her that could be a pointer?

If I’m correct it brings up the whole Limbo thing, on which the RCC has done much back-tracking in recent decades. At school we were obliged to believe in it, now I think it is ‘open’. The teaching was (is?) we were all born with original sin which was then ‘washed’ away by baptism. An infant could not sin (had not reached the age of reason) but unbaptized it still had original sin, therefore could not go to heaven on death. Neither Hell nor Purgatory were appropriate places, so Limbo was invented. In those superstitious times it was a horrible thing to put on parents who already had to cope with the grief of losing a child.

There were (are?) several types of baptism, by desire, by a lay person, conditional baptism, etc. I do recall that a dead person cannot be baptised, but if you think the soul is still in the body a baptism can be performed. Casuistry. I used to have countless arguments about all this in school, a great fun way to muddle our RK teacher, a simple soul whose answer to every confusion was “You’re not praying hard enough; pray more and you will understand it!”

pinkypinky

I have an ancestor called Esther Hall, who went on to marry and have children. This baptism date was a good rough match for her year of birth (extrapolated from death cert). I've nothing else to go on: I don't think it's her but was intrigued at the entry.

Thanks for the theories.

oceanclub

http://imgur.com/duUX63K


I'm assuming this is:
Michael Byrne
Parents: Thomas & Esther Byrne (would that have indicated her maiden name was also Byrne?)
Residence: Rathdrum?? (I'm assuming as that's the parish where records are from)
Godparents: Laurentio (Laurence) Farrell & Eliz ?????

lottpaul

I presume Byrne would be the maiden name also -- it would be a very common name in Wicklow afaik.

Could the godmother be Eliza Merna (sometimes Mernagh)?

L1011

Just had some records make an arse out of what I thought was set in stone (from paper genealogy done by a great uncle prior to the 1990s)

Looking to get a second set of eyes on the May 4th 1890 marriage between Richard Grogan and Mary Keely here:

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633720#page/57/mode/1up

I'm absolutely certain this is the right couple - the husbands address is "Greystones Station" and he was a DSER employee and the witnesses are other relations of mine from that era.

Mothers surname for him I thought was Dunne but looks like Baskin there? Parents names and address for the bride are what I really want though - James Keely and Bridget Devlin and Blackrock Dublin are my best guesses.

L1011

Cross referencing and the husbands mothers name is definitely Dunne unless she forgot every single time she gave birth (and also the only marriage match)...

oceanclub

lottpaul wrote: »

I presume Byrne would be the maiden name also -- it would be a very common name in Wicklow afaik.

Could the godmother be Eliza Merna (sometimes Mernagh)?

Yes, going through the Rathdrum parish records, it's _very_ common - Byrnes on every page.

Also baffled as I can find my great-grandmother Mary's siblings (Michael above in 1862, Bridget in 1865, Jane in 1871) but no luck finding her. (According to her death cert, born in 1862, according to the censuses, anytime between 1857 and 1862).

P.

KildareFan

was she married twice by any chance? Also, note that mistakes in names were corrected on the same page, so it could be a mistake.

L1011

Found the female witness for that marriage - her sister, as I had from before - birth cert - Devlin and Blackrock it is then. I don't want to add up how much I spent chasing the inaccurate line there pre-GRO/NLI changes >.<

oceanclub

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

KildareFan

oceanclub wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

In presence of....

You'd have to check other marriages to see if the last name John McGrath recurs in which case he is probably the celebrant.

tabbey

oceanclub wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

Lots of older marriages had three witnesses,

usually two male and one female, occasionally three men, on one record I saw three women.

The idea of having two men was that if the marriage ended up in court, civil or ecclesiastic, there would be one man for each party to the marriage, thereby saving the bridesmaid the difficult task of giving evidence.

It is for this reason that the Church of Ireland made it more specific; Witness for the husband, Witness for the wife. RC records of course were much more informal.

pinkypinky

I've never seen any marriage with 3 witnesses recorded: that's very interesting.

KildareFan

I've seen several in my excursions through the church marriage registers.