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Boundary Extension for City?
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Of course they're there for administrative purposes. My point is that county boundaries do not start and end where the economic "pull" of a town or city starts or ends. County boundaries are ancient and the modern boundaries bear only a rough approximation to the boundaries that we would draw if we were to start from scratch. I've said before that I would have no issue with a wholesale redesign of boundaries as they have done in the North. Overall, I don't think that county boundaries really matter a whole lot. We are a very centralised country and councils have weak powers relative to those of local government in other countries. However, a wholesale redrawing of boundaries is the way to go if you think that boundaries are important rather than tinkering around the edges. Alternatively, we could go for regional government and probably save some money too. The current proposed boundary move will do nothing except annoy people.Johnboy1951 wrote: »They are not there for administrative purposes?
What are they for so?0 -
Lads, this is economic and spatial planning 101. Having a single authority for a single economic area with a single plan and a single pot of funds is crucial for the development of that area. Waterford and the south-east has many problems. High unemployment, slow growth, emigration, poor planning, etc. All these are consequences of how it's managed by local and national government. The local government set up, with a number of local authorities vying against each other is an inherently dysfunctional one. There's no escaping that. If there was a single, strong and authority for the region the region would have a far better chance of prospering. I don't think extending the boundary is the best way forward though. Really, Kilkenny and Waterford Councils should be merged with a distinct metropolitan council within the larger merged council which manages Waterford and its immediate environs.0
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Ask people living in tramore, dunmore east, passage east, and checkpoint/faithlegg areas if they notice any differences since the merger of the old city and county councils? Up to 2014 the areas mentioned above were 'administered' from dungarvan a mere 30 miles away or so, similar to the distance that the 'boundary extension' area is from kk co co civic offices.....I know for a fact that the 'greenway' project would not have been as quickly progressed without the merger of the two old local authorities and I'm sure there are other benefits/synergies in the operation of local government sine the merger.0
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Ask people living in tramore, dunmore east, passage east, and checkpoint/faithlegg areas if they notice any differences since the merger of the old city and county councils? Up to 2014 the areas mentioned above were 'administered' from dungarvan a mere 30 miles away or so, similar to the distance that the 'boundary extension' area is from kk co co civic offices.....I know for a fact that the 'greenway' project would not have been as quickly progressed without the merger of the two old local authorities and I'm sure there are other benefits/synergies in the operation of local government sine the merger.
Such as?
I'm sure if you actually asked them they'd tell ya it made zero difference to their actual every day lives, in any way shape or form.0 -
Such as?
I'm sure if you actually asked them they'd tell ya it made zero difference to their actual every day lives, in any way shape or form.
actually a few people i have spoken to have said its worse... services are now more directed at the city and resulting in slower responses in the country parts....0 -
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actually a few people i have spoken to have said its worse... services are now more directed at the city and resulting in slower responses in the country parts....
That's what I was thinking...if as the last poster was (trying to) allege services are better provided now in east Waterford because they are admin from closer in Waterford city, then conversely services must have deteriorated in west Waterford, simply by the virtue of being 30 odd miles from the new admin hub. Following that logic, we should divide up all counties and have smaller hubs all-over to provide services "closer to the people"- now I doubt anyone would argue we should do that, as it would mean more costs/duplication.0 -
Ask people living in tramore, dunmore east, passage east, and checkpoint/faithlegg areas if they notice any differences since the merger of the old city and county councils? Up to 2014 the areas mentioned above were 'administered' from dungarvan a mere 30 miles away or so, similar to the distance that the 'boundary extension' area is from kk co co civic offices.....I know for a fact that the 'greenway' project would not have been as quickly progressed without the merger of the two old local authorities and I'm sure there are other benefits/synergies in the operation of local government sine the merger.
How is that? The city section has been finished for years. Even before the merger.0 -
road_high wrote:Following that logic, we should divide up all counties and have smaller hubs all-over to provide services "closer to the people"- now I doubt anyone would argue we should do that, as it would mean more costs/duplication.
There's an optimal set up though. And the current one is sub optimal. This is basic economic and spatial planning. Have a look at the National Spatial Strategy or the discussions around the National Planning Framework. Counties as administrative boundaries are on the way out because arbitrary lines on a map are not a good way to divide administrative areas. It makes far more sense to set boundaries based on population clusters and sphere of influence.
This should have no effect on who plays hurling for who. The GAA can continue to use the old county lines, as they do in the North.0 -
There's an optimal set up though. And the current one is sub optimal. This is basic economic and spatial planning. Have a look at the National Spatial Strategy or the discussions around the National Planning Framework. Counties as administrative boundaries are on the way out because arbitrary lines on a map are not a good way to divide administrative areas. It makes far more sense to set boundaries based on population clusters and sphere of influence.
This should have no effect on who plays hurling for who. The GAA can continue to use the old county lines, as they do in the North.
Well if we are going to abolish all County councils based on county structures that's a completely different matter to an extension into Co. Kilkenny which is what is proposed here. Not what you are proposing. It's putting everyone on an equal footing rather than perceived dominance of one over another.0 -
road_high wrote:Well if we are going to abolish all County councils based on county structures that's a completely different matter to an extension into Co. Kilkenny which is what is proposed here. Not what you are proposing. It's putting everyone on an equal footing rather than perceived dominance of one over another.
I don't disagree with you. The boundary extension approach is probably wrong or at least not ideal. But it's possibly more achievable than an amalgamation of both counties?0 -
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I don't disagree with you. The boundary extension approach is probably wrong or at least not ideal. But it's possibly more achievable than an amalgamation of both counties?
An amalgamation of Kilkenny and Waterford likely wouldn't work either. Carlow and Kilkenny yes, Waterford no, as we have never joined together whereas as Carlow/Kilkenny is an existing unit for a whole host of govt services and politics already. I can't see county units joining though, the policy is to encourage cooperation with various services but keep the county unit intact. FF especially strongly lean thisway.
Waterford much prefer an independent approach as you can see from this thread and others. The impression I always get it's Waterford way or else which does get kind of tiresome.0 -
road_high wrote:An amalgamation of Kilkenny and Waterford likely wouldn't work either. Carlow and Kilkenny yes, Waterford no, as we have never joined together whereas as Carlow/Kilkenny is an existing unit for a whole host of govt services and politics already. I can't see county units joining though, the policy is to encourage cooperation with various services but keep the county unit intact. FF especially strongly lean thisway. Waterford much prefer an independent approach as you can see from this thread and others. The impression I always get it's Waterford way or else which does get kind of tiresome.
FF are displaying their usual political cowardice (some would call it shrewdness) here, to be fair. They're going against professional opinion because they recognise that it's a way to lose votes. They used the 'increased co-operation' line in Limerick and Clare. It's bogus, shallow rhetoric. FG aren't a whole lot better.
While better than the status quo an amalgamation of just Carlow and Kilkenny would be of limited benefit. The economic influence of Waterford means is has to be central to the reform. Realistically, South Tipperary should be in it too. North Tipperary should be amalgamated with Limerick and Clare.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »It has been, numerous times, basically stronger Waterford, with more population will help regions biggest city grow and fight fir resources, which will in turn benefit region.
Just to get some clarification on this: the poster you responded to said so far all of the evidence provided just says how it will benefit Waterford, not the whole region. You responded by listing the ways it will benefit Waterford, and then just said "this will benefit the region". So we're no closer to understanding the benefits to the region than before. One of the recurring themes here has been Waterford posters saying that the current status quo has allowed Cork to become stronger, and that this has occurred at Waterford's expense. I dunno if that's true, or how you would demonstrate it. But couldn't the same logic apply to Waterford and Kilkenny as well? That a stronger Waterford would pull resources away from other urban centres around the South East, thereby weakening the rest of the region?
I'm not arguing whether that's for the best or not, I believe centralising resources in urban concentrations is the right thing to do, but if ye can't actually explain clearly how Waterford becoming stronger benefits the whole region, then ye should probably stop saying it.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »Just to get some clarification on this: the poster you responded to said so far all of the evidence provided just says how it will benefit Waterford, not the whole region. You responded by listing the ways it will benefit Waterford, and then just said "this will benefit the region". So we're no closer to understanding the benefits to the region than before. One of the recurring themes here has been Waterford posters saying that the current status quo has allowed Cork to become stronger, and that this has occurred at Waterford's expense. I dunno if that's true, or how you would demonstrate it. But couldn't the same logic apply to Waterford and Kilkenny as well? That a stronger Waterford would pull resources away from other urban centres around the South East, thereby weakening the rest of the region?
I'm not arguing whether that's for the best or not, I believe centralising resources in urban concentrations is the right thing to do, but if ye can't actually explain clearly how Waterford becoming stronger benefits the whole region, then ye should probably stop saying it.
I would think that a stronger waterford would mean more atractiveness to bigger companies witch people of the greater area would benifit, witch is already the case,
Having a uni here would mean that students from the greater area would not have to travel to dublin or cork and pay for digs as they could travel home every day and spend that money in their home county and not in cork or dublin,0 -
Well that may be true but having a university has nothing to do with the boundary extension. More businesses in Waterford would mean more jobs in Waterford. That's great, of course, but it would benefit the Waterford hinterland, not the whole region. Again, that's not a problem, but the tendency is for larger cities to draw resources from their region into themselves rather than to disburse those resources. I don't see how this would benefit other towns in the region, but I can see how it would draw populations (and at a certain critical mass, businesses) more towards Waterford and away from places like Kilkenny.
Again it's not strategically problematic, but this repeated claim that the region as a whole benefits needs to be examined, because the notion that Kilkenny (just to that the prescient example) has nothing to lose from a stronger Waterford doesn't necessarily tally.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »Well that may be true but having a university has nothing to do with the boundary extension. More businesses in Waterford would mean more jobs in Waterford. That's great, of course, but it would benefit the Waterford hinterland, not the whole region. Again, that's not a problem, but the tendency is for larger cities to draw resources from their region into themselves rather than to disburse those resources. I don't see how this would benefit other towns in the region, but I can see how it would draw populations (and at a certain critical mass, businesses) more towards Waterford and away from places like Kilkenny.
Again it's not strategically problematic, but this repeated claim that the region as a whole benefits needs to be examined, because the notion that Kilkenny (just to that the prescient example) has nothing to lose from a stronger Waterford doesn't necessarily tally.
You appear to assume that new businesses would open in Kilkenny (or other towns) in the first place.
Larger businesses will gravitate to the more populous areas so they have a pool of labour. That labour pool is not just Waterford city, but also labour from surrounding counties, hence the region benefits as the majority of earnings will be spent locally rather than where those people work.
That raises the question whether or not the boundary extension would make Waterford more attractive to industries than it is at present.
I believe it would, but only after it happened would we know for sure.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »Again, that's not a problem, but the tendency is for larger cities to draw resources from their region into themselves rather than to disburse those resources.
Yes and No.
Compare Limerick, Waterford and Sligo.
A larger city can draw resources from the nearby region e.g. Limerick A&E covers Ennis and North Tipp and those A&Es were marked for closure or less resources.
But a larger city also guarantees better infrastructure for the region, in other words drawing money into the region. e.g. Limerick is the reason there is a dublin motorway in the Mid-West which benefits all in that region.
Waterford was a large enough city to justify the M9 which has undoubtedly benefited the region as a whole even if you live in North Kilkenny and haven't been to Waterford in years!
Sligo isn't a large enough city and hence there still is no proper road between the North West region and Dublin for example.
Or even compare the train services between Sligo and Dublin and Waterford and Dublin.
For example, if Irish Rail decides to cut back trains to waterford (pop 51,000) this would affect Kilkenny (pop 24,000) also, because they would hardly keep the train going to a city less than half the size of waterford!
It's in the regional interest to have a strong Waterford otherwise watch the cut-backs roll.Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »I don't see how this would benefit other towns in the region, but I can see how it would draw populations (and at a certain critical mass, businesses) more towards Waterford and away from places like Kilkenny.
I think this is more about making sure that Waterford doesn't lose its place in the national pecking order rather than transferring resources out of Kilkenny or Clonmel etc... into Waterford.
This matters because otherwise the South East could fall into "non-region" status and get a lower than fair share of resources. e.g. like what is already happening with Cardiac Care with half of the region (Waterford/Wexford) with no 24/7 cover and Tipp/Kilkenny having moderate to poor 24/7 cover.
I think the South East is actually a great region because it has more equality than other regions. People can live in Waterford, Kilkenny or Wexford and not face either sky high property prices or very poor public infrastructure.
Look at the West by comparison, choose between really high property prices in the Galway city or no A&E in Roscommon etc...
A stronger waterford helps the whole south-east retain region status and the benefits that brings.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »Just to get some clarification on this: the poster you responded to said so far all of the evidence provided just says how it will benefit Waterford, not the whole region. You responded by listing the ways it will benefit Waterford, and then just said "this will benefit the region". So we're no closer to understanding the benefits to the region than before. One of the recurring themes here has been Waterford posters saying that the current status quo has allowed Cork to become stronger, and that this has occurred at Waterford's expense. I dunno if that's true, or how you would demonstrate it. But couldn't the same logic apply to Waterford and Kilkenny as well? That a stronger Waterford would pull resources away from other urban centres around the South East, thereby weakening the rest of the region?
I'm not arguing whether that's for the best or not, I believe centralising resources in urban concentrations is the right thing to do, but if ye can't actually explain clearly how Waterford becoming stronger benefits the whole region, then ye should probably stop saying it.
I thought it read simple enough, the region needs a strong urban centre to fight for the region, anything Waterford gets benefits the region, e.g. improved hospital, university, attracting jobs etc etc that the region might lose to likes of limerick or cork if we don't have an urban centre to go up against it.this is basically what everyone is saying including coveney and most non bias planners would say same too.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »I thought it read simple enough, the region needs a strong urban centre to fight for the region, anything Waterford gets benefits the region, e.g. improved hospital, university, attracting jobs etc etc that the region might lose to likes of limerick or cork if we don't have an urban centre to go up against it.this is basically what everyone is saying including coveney and most non bias planners would say same too.
You might well be correct but the problem is that Waterford has never really managed to convince the rest of the South-East that this is the case. Waterford has never been big enough to really dominate the region in the way that Cork, Galway or Limerick have dominated their regions. The likes of Kilkenny and Wexford(and Clonmel to a lesser extent) have always been substantial centres in their own right. Waterford simply has more competition in it's home region than other cities. Furthermore, parts of the region aren't really sure that they're part of the region in the first place. Waterford is hardly a centre for Carlow, for example, which could equally be considered part of the midlands or even Dublin commuterland. The South-East is so well served by motorways that many parts of the region are being drawn into the orbit of Dublin and Cork.
The unfortunate fact is that we mostly want our locality to develop as opposed to our region. Personally, I'd like to see Waterford do well as it's my nearest city/town. However, I can well understand that residents of Kilkenny or Wexford would be much more ambivalent. I have once or twice heard people in Cork tell me how good it will be for Waterford and South Kilkenny if Cork continues to grow. I fail to see the benefit of Cork's success for my locality or for the South-East. Wexford people might have similar reservations about Waterford's growth. Indeed some may fear that growth in Waterford will be at the expense of their home town, e.g. more funds for UHW might lead to a downgrade of St. Lukes or Wexford General.
Either way, a boundary extension application certainly doesn't help feelings of solidarity between Waterford and Kilkenny.0 -
Squidvicious wrote: »boundary extension application certainly doesn't help feelings of solidarity between Waterford and Kilkenny.
There was never any signs of solidarity from the latter!0 -
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Squidvicious wrote: »I fail to see the benefit of Cork's success for my locality or for the South-East. Wexford people might have similar reservations about Waterford's growth.
Of course, Cork is a different region - it is as near to Dublin for most of the region, might as well say Dublin's success is good for the region.
A lot of people from wexford work in waterford - why would they not want waterford to grow?
Wasn't the New Ross bypass justified, in part, on the grounds of the large delays for commuters? That project is a win for people from kilkenny, waterford and wexford.0 -
TheQuietFella wrote: »There was never any signs of solidarity from the latter!
Whereas it's all been love and support in the other direction...of course.
The idea of a south east "region" is akin to flogging a dead horse now. Not a lack of solidarity it just that None of the other counties are very interested. Carlow as pointed out is pulled towards Dublin/Kildare. Its also not surprisingly the fastest growing, has been over a series of censuses. This growth has nothing to do with Waterford as a regional centre. Kilkenny and Wexford less so but still influenced that direction.
Tipperary a bit like Carlow, doesn't fit readily into the south east and now is more linked to cork or limerick. Which really only leaves Waterford, kk and Wexford.0 -
Whereas it's all been love and support in the other direction...of course.
The idea of a south east "region" is akin to flogging a dead horse now. Not a lack of solidarity it just that None of the other counties are very interested. Carlow as pointed out is pulled towards Dublin/Kildare. Its also not surprisingly the fastest growing, has been over a series of censuses. This growth has nothing to do with Waterford as a regional centre. Kilkenny and Wexford less so but still influenced that direction.
Tipperary a bit like Carlow, doesn't fit readily into the south east and now is more linked to cork or limerick. Which really only leaves Waterford, kk and Wexford.
most of your posts were about cooperation in the region.only thing that can save the region now would be strong growth and the best way for that and to reverse the trend you highlighted in your post is a stronger Waterford to fight other regions for resources, jobs, investment.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »most of your posts were about cooperation in the region.only thing that can save the region now would be strong growth and the best way for that and to reverse the trend you highlighted in your post is a stronger Waterford to fight other regions for resources, jobs, investment.
There's nothing wrong with the trend though. Dublin is the engine of Ireland's economy and the closer links the better as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure Carlow and Tipp especially are very happy with their locations and the benefits being close to Dublin or cork bring. And that doesnt mean just daily commuting at all. There's a load of good businesses around Carlow (and indeed kk) that do a huge bulk of their trade with the Dublin region. It's just naturally evolved that way especially with the motorway now.
I've noticed it in Waterford too, particularly the hotels "an hour and half to Dublin" etc. and they're dead right. Take advantage of your location which is almost equidistant to Dublin or cork. It shouldn't be a threat.0 -
My view for a while is the whole southern half of the country needs to be linked up properly to offer a proper attractive alternative to Dublin. As Dublin overheats lack of housing, homelessness, too many jobs, wage inflation to entice people to take the jobs, traffic chaos as people commute more etc. etc. My view is that linking Wexford, Waterford, Cahir, Limerick and Cork via the existing M7 is an essential enabler to this allow this to occur. An M24 motorway is one approach but space between the 2 carriageways could also facilitate other infrastructure. High speed train 1 hour from Wexford to Shannon/Cork, 90 minutes Waterford to Dublin on the Waterford has brought benefits since the M9 was opened. Today the rail line between Dublin to Waterford is too slow v the motorway hence to be viable the train needs to be at least half the time 45 minutes, hence by view on at least allowing the space for a high speed train line within the motorway corridor, similarly space for a 400kV Power line should be allowed as we haven't reconciled the approach to network improvements since the last attempt. If this was in place I could contemplate living in Waterford and working in Limerick or Cork or vice versa possible due to < 1 hour commuting distances.0
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There's nothing wrong with the trend though. Dublin is the engine of Ireland's economy and the closer links the better as far as I'm concerned.
I'm sure Carlow and Tipp especially are very happy with their locations and the benefits being close to Dublin or cork bring. And that doesnt mean just daily commuting at all. There's a load of good businesses around Carlow (and indeed kk) that do a huge bulk of their trade with the Dublin region. It's just naturally evolved that way especially with the motorway now.
I've noticed it in Waterford too, particularly the hotels "an hour and half to Dublin" etc. and they're dead right. Take advantage of your location which is almost equidistant to Dublin or cork. It shouldn't be a threat.
It's a major threat, especially to kk,wex and Waterford as you highlighted.0 -
Article in today's independent
Bit in bold is important!Dr Brian Hughes, an urban and regional economist and adviser to the Government on population, says the Buchanan plan was never implemented, and this has had profound consequences, particularly for the west. The region has been left without a sizeable city, and this has led to fewer job opportunities and increased emigration.
Dr Hughes believes Buchanan's plan to develop the regional cities was scrapped because of political pressure from parish pump politicians, who thought they would benefit their own town and country areas by encouraging development there.
In fact their short-sightedness had the opposite effect, according to Dr Hughes.
"Healthy regions depend on a sizeable city. Without that, a region cannot thrive.
"If the cities grow, they attract more population to that region, and the area as a whole benefits."0 -
This argument has been made for Waterford and the south east on many occasions and is part of the university logic as well as the acute hospital logic. It is not clear the extent to which people in Kilkenny, north of Ballyhale buy into it ? Mr Coveney's forthcoming initiative on spatial strategy will be interesting when seen in the light of a boundary extension. The biggest positive for the south east will perhaps be the New Ross bypass which will reinforce existing east/west linkages to complement north /south M 9 linkages. South east could be great if it wished to be?0
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This argument has been made for Waterford and the south east on many occasions and is part of the university logic as well as the acute hospital logic. It is not clear the extent to which people in Kilkenny, north of Ballyhale buy into it ?
Mr Coveney's forthcoming initiative on spatial strategy will be interesting when seen in the light of a boundary extension. The biggest positive for the south east will perhaps be the New Ross bypass which will reinforce existing east/west linkages to complement north /south M 9 linkages. South east could be great if it wished to be?
I think you've answered your own question! Doesn't just apply to people north of Ballyhale either! All people have to buy into it.0 -
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Article in today's independent
Bit in bold is important!Dr Brian Hughes, an urban and regional economist and adviser to the Government on population, says the Buchanan plan was never implemented, and this has had profound consequences, particularly for the west. The region has been left without a sizeable city, and this has led to fewer job opportunities and increased emigration.
Dr Hughes believes Buchanan's plan to develop the regional cities was scrapped because of political pressure from parish pump politicians, who thought they would benefit their own town and country areas by encouraging development there.
In fact their short-sightedness had the opposite effect, according to Dr Hughes.
"Healthy regions depend on a sizeable city. Without that, a region cannot thrive.
"If the cities grow, they attract more population to that region, and the area as a whole benefits."
Who does this "expert" think he is. Sure we should all be driving to Dublin and Cork for jobs and retail. That's the right way forward!!0
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