Taxi rank rules

markpb

dunleakelleher wrote: »

You are right, you are allow to pick any car on the rank, but also Im sure the taxi has the equal right to refuse any fair he doesn't feel comfortable with.

A taxi driver has a reasonable right of refusal. They do not have an absolute right of refusal. If you're going more than 30km, if you look like a threat to their security or if you look like you're going to puke in their car, they can refuse you. They can't refuse you because of some unwritten rank rule.

AlanG

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You are free to pick whatever taxi you want in the Q, if everyone went for their choice of car the fleet would improve and some of the absolute junk would be sold off as nobody would want to travel it. You should report the driver to the Taxi regulator.

The driver does not have to take you as they may well claim that they are not for hire until the reach the top of the queue. They law that states they have to take you does not apply if they are not not for hire.

The Backwards Man

AlanG wrote: »

The driver does not have to take you as they may well claim that they are not for hire until the reach the top of the queue. They law that states they have to take you does not apply if they are not not for hire.

They can't be on the rank if they aren't available for hire.

54and56

AlanG wrote: »

The driver does not have to take you as they may well claim that they are not for hire until the reach the top of the queue. They law that states they have to take you does not apply if they are not not for hire.

Wrong, they actually can't be on the rank unless they are available for hire - see https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/taxi-ranks/

Dr_Bill

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Wrong, they actually can't be on the rank unless they are available for hire - see https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/taxi-ranks/

Pretty clear from the website you quoted...

Customers have the right to choose which taxi they hire – they do not necessarily have to hire the first taxi in the queue;

So if there is a jalopy at the front of the queue you do not have to take that taxi. Tell the driver your not taking the taxi at the front of the queue due to Health & Safety concerns.

Losty Dublin

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I guess this is the crux of the issue I need to understand.

If I sit into a taxi which is parked at a rank (and therefore available for hire as it cannot be parked at a rank unless it is available for hire) is my refusal to get out and use the first taxi in the line a sufficient "need" for the driver to eject me? Does the driver have an absolute right to request decline a fare and/or ask someone who has gotten into his taxi to exit the taxi regardless?

You have the right to choose any taxi on the rank that you wish, yes

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

I (possibly incorrectly) understood that a taxi on a rank which is available for hire the driver is obliged to take a fare (within certain limits e.g. if it's more than 30km's he can decline) and doesn't have an absolute discretion to eject passengers or refuse a fare unless there is a serious/justifiable reason not to.

Some lawful grounds for refusal of a fare are listed here. There will be more that the NTA consider reasonable but which aren't listed; they will be a few unusual cases that spring up from time to time.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/refusing-a-passenger/

Bear in mind that it is also illegal for you to remain in a PSV if asked to leave by it's driver, regardless of the reason given. What they are are lawful grounds for you to complain about the driver. The fact that these grounds may be on your side don't justify your refusal to leave the taxi if a garda (Eventually.) arrives on the scene so I'd advise you not to try and sit it out some day

I enclose the link below for complaints; you will need the plate number, car reg or driver details to realistically make one.
http://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If I'm wrong then I guess although the NTA state you are entitled to take whatever taxi you want from a rank and not just the first one in the queue the reality is so long as the taxi drivers themselves adhere to a 1st taxi goes 1st protocol and can eject passengers who choose the 2nd or 3rd car on the rank
the right of passengers to choose whatever car they want only works in theory and not in practice.

As I said in my first post, most drivers and passenger prefer to adhere to the concept and principle of the queue for simplistic reasons. One thing that the NTA don't do is that they don't staff the ranks or referee the squabbles that occasionally happen when passengers are seen skipping cars, regardless of their condition or age.

54and56

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Some lawful grounds for refusal of a fare are listed here. There will be more that the NTA consider reasonable but which aren't listed; they will be a few unusual cases that spring up from time to time.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/refusing-a-passenger/

Bear in mind that it is also illegal for you to remain in a PSV if asked to leave by it's driver, regardless of the reason given.

That's really good info Losty, thanks.

The only piece I haven't seen supported with an NTA regulation or other legislation is your assertion that it is illegal to remain in a PSV if asked to leave by the driver regardless of whether the reason the driver is asking the passenger to leave is one of the three reasons you linked to.

It seems to me that if a driver illegally asks a passenger to leave the vehicle (ie for some reason other than the three permitted reasons) it couldn't be illegal if the passenger stays in the vehicle and doesn't comply with what is an illegal request.

moc moc a moc

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

It seems to me that if a driver illegally asks a passenger to leave the vehicle (ie for some reason other than the three permitted reasons) it couldn't be illegal if the passenger stays in the vehicle and doesn't comply with what is an illegal request.

That's not how the law works.

Sheldons Brain

There should be a procedure for asking people to leave taxis, noting the reasons in a log book for whatever with a copy handed to the customer.

dunleakelleher

markpb wrote: »

They can't refuse you because of some unwritten rank rule.

They shouldn't refuse you, but they obviously do. And no matter how much we all quote the regulations and laws here. The unofficial rank rules will apply. We seem to be flogging a dead horse in this thread, as sure as day follows night, it will continue.

Spook_ie

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

That's really good info Losty, thanks.

The only piece I haven't seen supported with an NTA regulation or other legislation is your assertion that it is illegal to remain in a PSV if asked to leave by the driver regardless of whether the reason the driver is asking the passenger to leave is one of the three reasons you linked to.

It seems to me that if a driver illegally asks a passenger to leave the vehicle (ie for some reason other than the three permitted reasons) it couldn't be illegal if the passenger stays in the vehicle and doesn't comply with what is an illegal request.

I have no problem taking people out of sequence, but I do put my own unwritten rule into operation, if you refuse the taxi(s) at the front then I insist that you tell them you are taking the 3rd 4th or whatever taxi, reason, it puts a stop to a lot of shenanigans of racist customers walking past the first cab because it's driven by a black man.

Spook_ie

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

It seems to me that if a driver illegally asks a passenger to leave the vehicle (ie for some reason other than the three permitted reasons) it couldn't be illegal if the passenger stays in the vehicle and doesn't comply with what is an illegal request.

Catch 22, if you don't leave the cab, you could be defined as

A passenger who is, or becomes, disorderly, abusive or offensive;

54and56

Spook_ie wrote: »

I have no problem taking people out of sequence, but I do put my own unwritten rule into operation, if you refuse the taxi(s) at the front then I insist that you tell them you are taking the 3rd 4th or whatever taxi, reason, it puts a stop to a lot of shenanigans of racist customers walking past the first cab because it's driven by a black man.

That's a good example of why the NTA nees to write and implement the rules and not leave it up to individuals to make it up as they go along.

In your scenario if I was a racist and didn't want to take the first two cars because the drivers of same were not acceptable to me due to their race but in order to choose car #3 I first of all had to give drivers #1 & #2 a reason as to why I wasn't using them all I'd have to do is look at car #3 and assuming it's not identical to car's 1 & 2 in terms of model and age etc I'd simply say to drivers 1 & 2 that I was taking car #3 because I love Skoda's and they are driving (insert other manufacturers name) or I prefer to use cars which are (insert age) old and their cars aren't.

Silly ineffective behaviour which is liable to cause more hassle that it would avoid.

If I go into a supermarket and a cabbage is going to cost me €2 I'll choose the freshest or nicest looking cabbage on the shelf not just the one which happens to be at the front of the shelf and in doing so I won't have to explain to the other cabbages why they aren't being picked. :rolleyes:

54and56

Spook_ie wrote: »

Catch 22, if you don't leave the cab, you could be defined as

By who? If sitting quietly in a cab constitutes disorderly, abusive or offensive behaviour then fair enough but then all passengers sitting quietly in all cabs running around the city are also being disorderly, abusive or offensive

Spook_ie

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

By who? If sitting quietly in a cab constitutes disorderly, abusive or offensive behaviour then fair enough but then all passengers sitting quietly in all cabs running around the city are also being disorderly, abusive or offensive

If you refuse to get out, I'd class you as disorderly, as I said catch 22

Spook_ie

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

That's a good example of why the NTA nees to write and implement the rules and not leave it up to individuals to make it up as they go along.

In your scenario if I was a racist and didn't want to take the first two cars because the drivers of same were not acceptable to me due to their race but in order to choose car #3 I first of all had to give drivers #1 & #2 a reason as to why I wasn't using them all I'd have to do is look at car #3 and assuming it's not identical to car's 1 & 2 in terms of model and age etc I'd simply say to drivers 1 & 2 that I was taking car #3 because I love Skoda's and they are driving (insert other manufacturers name) or I prefer to use cars which are (insert age) old and their cars aren't.

Silly behaviour.

If I go into a supermarket and a cabbage is going to cost me €2 I'll choose the freshest or nicest looking cabbage on the shelf not just the one which happens to be at the front of the shelf and in doing so I won't have to explain to the other cabbages why they aren't being picked. :rolleyes:

No it's not, I see no reason why I should permit racism from customers, same as I see no reason to allow racism from drivers, if you want to walk past two cabs, as far as I'm concerned you can walk back up to them and tell them why. Comparing it to picking a cabbage is just being stupid

54and56

Spook_ie wrote: »

If you refuse to get out, I'd class you as disorderly, as I said catch 22

If you refuse to obey the NTA rules and allow me to choose whatever taxi on the rank I want to use I'd class your behaviour as abusive and offensive and remind you or the Guards that your offensive behaviour occurred before you then claimed I was being disorderly by not leaving the car.

54and56

Spook_ie wrote: »

No it's not, I see no reason why I should permit racism from customers, same as I see no reason to allow racism from drivers, if you want to walk past two cabs, as far as I'm concerned you can walk back up to them and tell them why. Comparing it to picking a cabbage is just being stupid

Another good reason why you don't get to make up the rules.

By your own assertion you get to judge my motives for choosing the car I want. You really think you can make such prejudiced judgements without any evidence whatsoever other than your own imagination?

Where would you draw the line? If the two drivers in front were old? Would you accuse me of ageism? If the two drivers in front were women would I be misogynistic? If the two drivers in front were fat? If they were skinny? If they looked scruffy? If they wore beards?

Please, do let me know how many of the afore mentioned you are empowered to be judge and jury on?

Losty Dublin

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

That's really good info Losty, thanks.

The only piece I haven't seen supported with an NTA regulation or other legislation is your assertion that it is illegal to remain in a PSV if asked to leave by the driver regardless of whether the reason the driver is asking the passenger to leave is one of the three reasons you linked to.
.

This is the most recent item of law applicable. The first one refers to intending passengers.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0037/sec0029.html#sec29

While there have been successive taxi acts, the PSV badges which licence drivers to drive are still issued under a 1963 Statutory Instrument. Some of the powers of a driver, both for buses and taxis, are included in this.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0191.html#zzsi191y1963a53

markpb

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If I go into a supermarket and a cabbage is going to cost me €2 I'll choose the freshest or nicest looking cabbage on the shelf not just the one which happens to be at the front of the shelf and in doing so I won't have to explain to the other cabbages why they aren't being picked. :rolleyes:

54and56

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is the most recent item of law applicable. The first one refers to intending passengers.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0037/sec0029.html#sec29

While there have been successive taxi acts, the PSV badges which licence drivers to drive are still issued under a 1963 Statutory Instrument. Some of the powers of a driver, both for buses and taxis, are included in this.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0191.html#zzsi191y1963a53

Thanks very much Losty, that's exactly the legislation I was looking for.

Section 29-(5) of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 states that "Where a person refuses to leave a vehicle upon the request of its driver, the driver may request a member of the Garda Síochána to remove the person."

So, regardless of the fact that a driver may be in breach of the NTA rules permitting a passenger to choose whatever taxi on a rank he/she prefers (for whatever reason without having to justify same to Spook_ie) the driver is entitled to ask the passenger to leave the vehicle and the passenger must comply with that request.

I now know the correct procedure if this happens to me again.

1. Choose the car I prefer from the rank.
2. If the taxi driver won't take me, insists I use the first taxi in the rank and asks me to leave his vehicle I take a photo of his licence and politely exit the vehicle.
3. I flag down a taxi and upon completion of my journey I send a complaint to the NTA at http://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/ with a copy of the drivers license info.

Simples :P

Thanks for the discussion guys, it's been illuminating.

jca

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Thanks very much Losty, that's exactly the legislation I was looking for.

Section 29-(5) of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 states that "Where a person refuses to leave a vehicle upon the request of its driver, the driver may request a member of the Garda Síochána to remove the person."

So, regardless of the fact that a driver may be in breach of the NTA rules permitting a passenger to choose whatever taxi on a rank he/she prefers (for whatever reason without having to justify same to Spook_ie) the driver is entitled to ask the passenger to leave the vehicle and the passenger must comply with that request.

I now know the correct procedure if this happens to me again.

1. Choose the car I prefer from the rank.
2. If the taxi driver won't take me, insists I use the first taxi in the rank and asks me to leave his vehicle I take a photo of his licence and politely exit the vehicle.
3. I flag down a taxi and upon completion of my journey I send a complaint to the NTA at http://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/ with a copy of the drivers license info.

Simples :P

Thanks for the discussion guys, it's been illuminating.

Just download the driver app and put his psv number into it and it will give you all the details you need.

54and56

jca wrote: »

Just download the driver app and put his psv number into it and it will give you all the details you need.

There's a driver app? What's it called?

jca

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

There's a driver app? What's it called?

Driver check. You can enter the plate number on the windscreen (in the round disc) or the vehicle registration number or the drivers badge number the same number that's on the i.d. on the dash.

bobbyss

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Thanks very much Losty, that's exactly the legislation I was looking for.

Section 29-(5) of the Taxi Regulation Act 2013 states that "Where a person refuses to leave a vehicle upon the request of its driver, the driver may request a member of the Garda Síochána to remove the person."

So, regardless of the fact that a driver may be in breach of the NTA rules permitting a passenger to choose whatever taxi on a rank he/she prefers (for whatever reason without having to justify same to Spook_ie) the driver is entitled to ask the passenger to leave the vehicle and the passenger must comply with that request.

I now know the correct procedure if this happens to me again.

1. Choose the car I prefer from the rank.
2. If the taxi driver won't take me, insists I use the first taxi in the rank and asks me to leave his vehicle I take a photo of his licence and politely exit the vehicle.
3. I flag down a taxi and upon completion of my journey I send a complaint to the NTA at http://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/ with a copy of the drivers license info.

Simples :P

Thanks for the discussion guys, it's been illuminating.

Enjoyable discussion. If the taxi drivers in the rank are in accord with the no skipping policy then they do not give anyone consent to enter their cabs except for taxi number 1, so by entering has a fare already broken the law according to Section 29 1 a.

Has anybody made a complaint along these lines and what has actually happened as a result?

VEN

the groutch wrote: »

I'm guessing it's the O'Connell Street rank?
How they still get away with their quasi-bullying is beyond me.

• Customers have the right to choose which taxi they hire – they do not necessarily have to hire the first taxi in the queue.

thats from the NTA site indeed. yep, had that experience last week at o'connell bridge, so its still going on and the 2nd taxi had the nerve to tell me "nope sorry, can't that rule has changed"!!!!

the first one, its driver was sitting outside his taxi. asked him to take me to destination which wasn't far and he just laughed in my face really rudely like as if there was something wrong with me or cos the fare wasn't long enough. the 2nd taxi did take me only after an old lady took the first one, but as it turned out they told me that the first guy was an 'ignorant p****" and is known. so the truth came out, he was afraid to pull out in front of him. didn't take either plate numbers but ill make a complaint if i see him again and i will intentionally do it to catch him.

joke of a spot.

Bray Head

I had a minor enough customer service incident recently involving a taxi (failure to provide a printed receipt).

I submitted an online complaint with driver's name, very clear details of the event, scan of the written receipt, etc.

I got feedback by email from the NTA within days explaining that the driver had been issued a fixed penalty notice. I was very impressed by the service.

Sam Russell

Never give the destination till you are inside the taxi.

magicbastarder

VEN wrote: »

• Customers have the right to choose which taxi they hire – they do not necessarily have to hire the first taxi in the queue.

had the same recently. first taxi was something like an 06 primera, second taxi was a 2015 skoda superb. went to get in the superb, driver wouldn't take me.

Mr.Frame

The previous taxi regulator brought this out, "you dont have to take the first taxi ", It did and still does untold damage and causig never ending arguments on ranks.
It caused many non white drivers to claim passengers were racist as they would pass their car and get into a car driven by a white person 2 or 3 cars behind.
I personally disagree with the "take any car on the rank", and think that first car is the one you should take ,
If you dont like the look of the driver, then wait until the first car leaves and get the next one.
Kathleen Doyle made a bollocksology of the the taxi business and created rows and arguments at ranks .