The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 02:54PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

No i'm not, where are they, so far you have shown me the website of a government department, where are the 'freebies'? Since when is a teacher a 'freebie'? As for the Gaeltacht, again where are the freebies? Show me billions of euros worth of freebies that the Gaeltacht gets that the rest of the country does not have access to. Of course there are no billions in reality, these are just lies that people like you tell.

Yes, they are freebies to support the Irish language. €1,000,000,000 per annum at least.
You need more education on what the Udaras does then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about these policies you very clearly support.
http://www.udaras.ie/en/forbairt-fiontraiochta/foirmeacha-iarratais/
Go on, make me laugh and tell me these are available to everybody again.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 04:52PM

pone2012 wrote: »

I did quite well in irish in 2010 LC in fact, A B3 actually....that doesnt change the fact that I put forward...It serves no purpose and is pretty much insignificant and useless as far as skills are concerned

Sorry if you dont like it, you're more than welcome to argue this point with me

It's a faculty you have learned to quite a high standard as evidenced by your results. If it doesn't serve you a purpose and is insignificant and useless as far as your skills are concerned then that's your choice. It's presumptuous of you to say it serves no purpose - how do you know?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 04:54PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if we take flintknapping again, if everybody was forced to learn this skill for pretty much no reason whatsoever, your attitude would be that we should all practise this skill every day instead of just canning it at school?

I don't accept your premise so your conclusion doesn't resonate with me.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:04PM

Dughorm wrote: »

It's a faculty you have learned to quite a high standard as evidenced by your results. If it doesn't serve you a purpose and is insignificant and useless as far as your skills are concerned then that's your choice. It's presumptuous of you to say it serves no purpose - how do you know?

Because we already have a far superior option that serves the country fantastically well: knives bought in the shop.
The language equivalent in this discussion is "English", in case you didn't get that.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:06PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't accept your premise so your conclusion doesn't resonate with me.

You don't accept the premise that everybody in Ireland is forced to learn something they will have no use for in future? Really?
Will I remind you how many people speak Irish with any sort of regularity then, or did you forget?

Reiver · 03-09-2015 05:07PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You don't accept the premise that everybody in Ireland is forced to learn something they will have no use for in future?
Will I remind you how many people speak Irish with any sort of regularity then, or did you forget?

Not everybody is forced to learn.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:09PM

Reiver wrote: »

Not everybody is forced to learn.

If they are Irish born they are forced to learn. This is a simple fact.

Reiver · 03-09-2015 05:16PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If they are Irish born they are forced to learn. This is a simple fact.

My brother is Irish born and didn't have to.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:18PM

Reiver wrote: »

My brother is Irish born and didn't have to.

Oh go on then, tell us all about this vanishingly miniscule segment of Irish schoolgoers who don't have to do Irish. I'll pretend it was important to the debate, honest*.

* I won't.

Reiver · 03-09-2015 05:20PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh go on then, tell us all about this vanishingly miniscule segment of Irish schoolgoers who don't have to do Irish. I'll pretend it was important to the debate, honest*.

* I won't.

He's dyslexic. A friend as well lived abroad for a few years and he didn't have to learn either when he got back.

So no...everybody isn't forced to learn.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 05:25PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Because we already have a far superior option that serves the country fantastically well: knives bought in the shop.
The language equivalent in this discussion is "English", in case you didn't get that.

Who's the "we" and how do you know what they think? Is that not arrogant?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:26PM

Reiver wrote: »

He's dyslexic. A friend as well lived abroad for a few years and he didn't have to learn either when he got back.

So no...everybody isn't forced to learn.

Thanks for that worthless contribution that adds pretty much zero to the discussion on whether Irish should be compulsory or not and how that helps the language.
No, really. Hats off.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:27PM

Dughorm wrote: »

Who's the "we" and how do you know what they think? Is that not arrogant?

"We" is the 99% of the population who refuse to speak Irish.
A bit arrogant of you to think you know better than they do, surely?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 05:28PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"We" is the 99% of the population who refuse to speak Irish.
A bit arrogant of you to think you know better than they do, surely?

I didn't claim to know better than anyone. It is you who claim to know what "We" think? What scientific evidence do you have to back up your claim?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:30PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I didn't claim to know better than anyone. It is you who claim to know what "We" think? What scientific evidence do you have to back up your claim?

We know how many people speak Irish with any regularity: about 1%.
Do you have any evidence that more people want to speak Irish but for some reason are incapable of exercising their 13 years of education in the language?

Reiver · 03-09-2015 05:31PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Thanks for that worthless contribution that adds pretty much zero to the discussion on whether Irish should be compulsory or not and how that helps the language.
No, really. Hats off.

You're just cross because you were proven wrong. :rolleyes:

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:31PM

Reiver wrote: »

You're just cross because you were proven wrong. :rolleyes:

You're just embarrassed because your point wasn't one.

Hey, if you get eaten by a crocodile on the way to your Irish exam, you don't have to pass the exam! True! So important we factor everything in to this argument isn't it!

Reiver · 03-09-2015 05:33PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're just embarrassed because your point wasn't one.

You said it as a fact that everybody was forced to learn. Not everybody is. :pac: We can't have hyperbole dominating here.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 05:38PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

We know how many people speak Irish with any regularity: about 1%.
Do you have any evidence that more people want to speak Irish but for some reason are incapable of exercising their 13 years of education in the language?

I don't... but then I didn't claim to represent the views of this "We" and what they think. So I'll ask again do you have a shred of scientific evidence to back up your claim?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 05:44PM

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't... but then I didn't claim to represent the views of this "We" and what they think. So I'll ask again do you have a shred of scientific evidence to back up your claim?

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 05:49PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

Are you backtracking from your claim to speak for this "we"? Or can you speak for them without knowing their opinion?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you need at least a robust survey to make any credible wider assertions.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 07:10PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

but the opinion of one or a small group of people is not a good enough reason for change.

Unless they're Irish-language enthusiasts looking for the government to provide them with another radio station.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 07:15PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, they are freebies to support the Irish language. €1,000,000,000 per annum at least.
You need more education on what the Udaras does then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about these policies you very clearly support.
Go on, make me laugh and tell me these are available to everybody again.

The €1,000,000,000 figure is laughable. When the article mentions 'it is estimated' it fails to mention that the 'estimation' was done by a Dublin based Neo-Unionist group that want to see the dismantling of the Irish language at a national level. Hardily the most credible source.

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 07:23PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Unless they're Irish-language enthusiasts looking for the government to provide them with another radio station.

That's exactly the point, for change to happen, there has to be sufficient political support, both among the political class, and in wider society. For ending publicly funded broadcasting in this country, clearly it's not there. For Irish it is.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 07:25PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

From where, bedsides up your own hole, are you pulling these figures from?

Go on, if its a 'cast iron fact', back it up.

Carlos Orange · 03-09-2015 07:30PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Does Enterprise Ireland help setup preschools?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 07:42PM

psinno wrote: »

Does Enterprise Ireland help setup preschools?

Probably, they are small businesses at the end of the day.
You will be hard pressed to find funding from ÚnaG that is not available from another state agency outside the Gaeltacht, be it Enterprise Ireland or something else.

ÚnaG has a very small budget, the reality is, they don't have enough money to fund much. If anything, they are significantly underfunded for the responsibilities they have.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 08:00PM

Gael Mire wrote: »

That's exactly the point, for change to happen, there has to be sufficient political support, both among the political class, and in wider society. For ending publicly funded broadcasting in this country, clearly it's not there. For Irish it is.

Ending funding would be extreme. It would be more reasonable to make the subvention proportionate to the listenership. This would reward progress in growing the listernership. There has to be a limit on how much money is given to Irish language enthusiasts.

More to the point, we are discussing the failure of Irish. If, unlike their more successful English-speaking compatriots, Irish-speakers cannot provide their own media without recourse to state charity, this really proves that Irish has failed. Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group? They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 08:04PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

If, unlike their more successful English-speaking compatriots, Irish-speakers cannot provide their own media without recourse to state charity, this really proves that Irish has failed. Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group?

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee. Commercial TV in Ireland along the likes of Tv3 is what you want is it?

Shep_Dog wrote: »

They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

Any evidence for this wild allegation?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 08:20PM

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group? They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

The crutch of state support? Perhaps the English speaking community in this country should try it first. I mean they speak one of the top five most spoken languages in the world, if Irish speakers are to be expected to prove they are a 'viable' cultural group by being cut off from the benefit of their taxes, then surely the English speakers, the majority language community should be doing it already. No more schools/media/hospitals etc dependent to the crutch of state funding for them.

The Irish language is failing.

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