The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:23pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Oh dear.
So in that case you'll be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped so the people there can enjoy the "better resourced" other state funding instead?
My eye you will.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:25pm

Dughorm wrote: »

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee.

But RTE's mission statement isn't solely to promote a comatose language that nobody appears to want anything to do with.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:28pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

No more schools/media/hospitals etc dependent to the crutch of state funding for them.

You think the only reason we have hospitals in Ireland is to force English on those poor people who are otherwise speaking Irish all the time?
Paranoid much?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 8:35pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear.
So in that case you'll be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped so the people there can enjoy the "better resourced" other state funding instead?
My eye you will.

Of course not, Enterprise Ireland has a much bigger population to cover. Of course they are better resourced. Údarás also has the virtue of being able to provide its services in Irish.
No, I won't be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped, I will be calling for the cuts to Údarás na Gaeltachtas budget to be reversed in the budget so they can effectively fulfill their role in supporting the continued existence of our Gaeltacht communities.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 8:37pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You think the only reason we have hospitals in Ireland is to force English on those poor people who are otherwise speaking Irish all the time?
Paranoid much?

Do you think the only reason we have schools in the Gaeltacht is to force Irish on poor people who are otherwise speaking English all the time? Ignorant much?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:50pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

Do you think the only reason we have schools in the Gaeltacht is to force Irish on poor people who are otherwise speaking English all the time? Ignorant much?

You mean that 1% of Irish people who speak Irish, now the third and soon the fourth most popular language in Ireland? It was you that brought up the hospitals using English thing, if you're now calling that "ignorant" at least you've one shred of honesty, even if you're unloading both barrels into your own foot.
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/0529/704583-irish-in-decline-in-gaeltacht-areas-report/
Irish won't even be the common tongue in the Gaeltacht in 10 years. An utter failure. Get used to it.
Did you know any of this? Or just not care as long as the gravy train keeps on rolling?

Mr_Muffin · 03-09-2015 9:00pm

I didn't do Irish in school as i spent some time abroad being educated.

Seeming as children are taught Irish for quite a few years i was under the impression that practically every Irish person would of been able to speak fluent Irish but it seems this is not the case - actually i don't now anyone who can speak it at all.

Why is this? Surely after years and years of learning at a young age they would pick it up or am i wrong?

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 9:09pm

Dughorm wrote: »

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee. Commercial TV in Ireland along the likes of Tv3 is what you want is it?

It would say a lot about the vitality of Irish if it attracted sufficient audiences to bring in advertisers to fund Irish language media. TV3 simply reflects the demand of its viewers. No doubt, a successful Irish language broadcaster would appeal to the tastes of Irish speakers.

Dughorm wrote: »

Any evidence for this wild allegation?

Irish is failing in the Gaeltacht? We all prefer to speak English? The Main Aim of Conradh has not been achieved? Douglas Hyde is spinning in his grave?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:19pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You mean that 1% of Irish people who speak Irish, now the third and soon the fourth most popular language in Ireland? It was you that brought up the hospitals using English thing, if you're now calling that "ignorant" at least you've one shred of honesty, even if you're unloading both barrels into your own foot.

Irish won't even be the common tongue in the Gaeltacht in 10 years. An utter failure. Get used to it.
Did you know any of this? Or just not care as long as the gravy train keeps on rolling?

Sorry, I don't base my discussions on made up statistics.
As for the future of the Irish language as the majority language in the Gaeltacht, I am well aware of the issues. I am also aware of the causes and how they can be solved. They are being solved in the Gaeltacht I work in.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 9:20pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

if Irish speakers are to be expected to prove they are a 'viable' cultural group by being cut off from the benefit of their taxes

So, the subsidies given to Irish speaking only derive from the taxes of Irish speakers?

More to the point, we provide hospital care to those in need. Speaking Irish is not a malady.

Why are you afraid of the idea of Irish speakers demonstrating they are a viable, cultural group? Perhaps the fact that they are not, lies at the root of the demise of their language and you find it more comfortable to ignore this?

Irish speakers have the same lifestyle and culural tastes as the rest of us. The only difference is that they enjoy speaking Irish. This does not make them a distinct or separate cultural group.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:29pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, the subsidies given to Irish speaking only derive from the taxes of Irish speakers?

They derive from the state to which they pay their taxes, as to the breakdown, i'm not sure,

More to the point, we provide hospital care to those in need. Speaking Irish is not a malady.

But surely if English speaking Ireland were a viable cultural group, they would be able to support these services without the 'crutch of state support'?

Why are you afraid of the idea of Irish speakers demonstrating they are a viable, cultural group?

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

AnLonDubh · 03-09-2015 9:30pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Irish is failing in the Gaeltacht? We all prefer to speak English? The Main Aim of Conradh has not been achieved? Douglas Hyde is spinning in his grave?

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:33pm

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Well, he doesn't have much better to be doing these days really, if you choice is between spinning and not spinning, may as well spin.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 9:46pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

Sorry, I don't base my discussions on made up statistics.
As for the future of the Irish language as the majority language in the Gaeltacht, I am well aware of the issues. I am also aware of the causes and how they can be solved. They are being solved in the Gaeltacht I work in.

Ah, you don't even provide statistics. You just say everything is grand, we'll all be speaking Irish any day now with zero evidence.
Let me guess "I'm an Irish speaker and I said so"? That negates the surveys showing Irish is collapsing miserably in the Gaeltacht that I linked to I suppose?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 10:16pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, you don't even provide statistics. You just say everything is grand, we'll all be speaking Irish any day now with zero evidence.
Let me guess "I'm an Irish speaker and I said so"? That negates the surveys showing Irish is collapsing miserably in the Gaeltacht that I linked to I suppose?

I could make shít up too, I just choose not to. I don't find it helps these discussions very much.

No, everything is not grand, there are still gobshítes like you hanging around with an attitude to the language that Queen Victoria would be proud of.

Irish is not collapsing in the Gaeltacht. In fact the number of Irish speakers has been increasing in the Gaeltacht over the last decade. (I can give you the figures for that if you like). The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

Thankfuly that influx is stopped now and those communities can begin to heal. There is a question if they will be able to assimilate these new commers, some probably wont. Bearna may well fall into that category.

KERSPLAT! · 03-09-2015 10:23pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I could make shít up too, I just choose not to. I don't find it helps these discussions very much.

No, everything is not grand, there are still gobshítes like you hanging around with an attitude to the language that Queen Victoria would be proud of.

Irish is not collapsing in the Gaeltacht. In fact the number of Irish speakers has been increasing in the Gaeltacht over the last decade. (I can give you the figures for that if you like). The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

Thankfuly that influx is stopped now and those communities can begin to heal. There is a question if they will be able to assimilate these new commers, some probably wont. Bearna may well fall into that category.

MOD

Keep it civil or don't post.

Shep_Dog · 04-09-2015 6:13am

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Hyde wrote strongly about the need to de-Anglisize Ireland and poured scorn on Irish people's appetite for English 'penny dreadfuls'.

Shep_Dog · 04-09-2015 6:51am

Gael Mire wrote: »

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

The amount of money expended on providing TV and radio entertainment to Irish speakers is grossly disproportionate to their numbers. That is not fair. More to the point is that Irish-language media has become completely dependent on state-funding, this is not healthy and signals that, as a cultural entity, Irish does not have an independent, dignified existence. While it is true that English-speakers can enjoy state-funded media, they also have independent newspapers, radio and TV stations. This is the difference in vigour between the failing Irish language community and the thriving English language one.

Gael Mire wrote: »

The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

I read that the problem was that younger Irish-speakers were switching to English, so that they could communicate with their English-speaking friends. How will you prevent this?

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 9:15am

Gael Mire wrote: »

They derive from the state to which they pay their taxes, as to the breakdown, i'm not sure,

But surely if English speaking Ireland were a viable cultural group, they would be able to support these services without the 'crutch of state support'?

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

This is all little more than space filler.
English is our common language. An aptitude in the common language is essential to be a fully integrated member of society. So it needs to be taught in school.
Beyond that, the state is just catering for the common language. If that was Irish, or more likely at this stage Polish and Chinese, then they would operate in that language instead.
Your hospitals imposing English allegation is utterly bizarre. Pretty sure they treat non-English speakers and neonates who don't speak any language at all exactly the same, but you could put me right on that if you like.

Reiver · 04-09-2015 11:29am

Shep_Dog wrote: »

I read that the problem was that younger Irish-speakers were switching to English, so that they could communicate with their English-speaking friends.

From my own experiences in Kerry and Galway that would be the case. Normally they don't want to make someone feel alienated which is fair enough. I'd speak Irish with my own friends from out there but we'd switch the moment anyone else entered the conversation (or when my vocab doesn't work for a technical discussion of something).

inocybe · 04-09-2015 1:52pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

Thankfuly that influx is stopped now and those communities can begin to heal. There is a question if they will be able to assimilate these new commers, some probably wont. Bearna may well fall into that category.

what other country would sanction stopping people moving to an area based on the language they speak? Imagine if it was reversed, no Irish speaking families allowed to buy houses in a certain town. Nasty policy.

Carlos Orange · 04-09-2015 2:00pm

inocybe wrote: »

what other country would sanction stopping people moving to an area based on the language they speak? Imagine if it was reversed, no Irish speaking families allowed to buy houses in a certain town. Nasty policy.

Don't know about that but referring to the presence of English speakers as if they are an open sore is a bit ott.

Gael Mire · 04-09-2015 2:02pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The amount of money expended on providing TV and radio entertainment to Irish speakers is grossly disproportionate to their numbers. That is not fair. More to the point is that Irish-language media has become completely dependent on state-funding, this is not healthy and signals that, as a cultural entity, Irish does not have an independent, dignified existence. While it is true that English-speakers can enjoy state-funded media, they also have independent newspapers, radio and TV stations. This is the difference in vigour between the failing Irish language community and the thriving English language one.

I suppose the first point that needs to be made is that the strength or otherwise of language communities is not determined by the funding structure of the media available in that language.
The second point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with publicly funded media, in many ways it is better than private media. There is nothing fundamentally unhealthy or undignified in the majority of media in a society or language group being funded publicly. As for dependence on state support, it is not true to say that all Irish language media is completely dependent on state support. As for media in English, the commercial viability of much of the supposedly private media in this country would be severely shaken if all public money and support was closed off to them.

When assessing the vitality of minority languages, there being a state that gives that language official recognition and funds services and other supports including media is seen as a positive and very helpful factor in ensuring the viability of that language into the future.
Official recognition and funding of services, supports and media in a minority language requires widespread support within that society and among the political class, that this exists for Irish is very positive for its future.

I read that the problem was that younger Irish-speakers were switching to English, so that they could communicate with their English-speaking friends. How will you prevent this?

Its not a question of prevention as such. The biggest factor in the current problem is, as I mentioned previously, the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the Celtic Tiger years. Along with that influx, there came people of all ages, young as well as old.
The question is one of maintaining and increasing the use of Irish among younger Gaeltacht residents while assimilating the non-Irish speaking young people who arrived to the Gaeltacht over the past decade, as well as the children of newly arrived non-Irish speaking parents into the Irish speaking community.
These young non-Irish speakers are being assimilated in the stronger Gaeltachtaí as the schools they attend are Irish medium schools and much of the social activities available for young people, such as the local GAA club for example also operate through Irish. The problem of non-Irish speaking young people is being effectively dealt with and where you will have a generation of adults who moved to the Gaeltacht with no Irish, the next generation, their children will have Irish.

The next issue then is one of language use. While these non-Irish speaking young people are learning Irish and will become fluent in Irish, there is still the issue of the use of Irish between them and their Gaeltacht native peers and indeed among Gaeltacht native young people themselves.
There are essentially two strands to how this can be addressed, there is the maintaining of Irish as the language of communication socially in community activities, local GAA clubs, youth clubs and other youth services.

The second is the socialization of young children through Irish. There is strong evidence to show that the language people speak to each other when they get to know each other first is, by and large, the language they use with each other from that point on, as such, if you can ensure that young children get to know each other through Irish, they will maintain Irish as the language of communication between themselves as they grow and move on to teenagers and young adulthood. As such, providing services such as parent and toddler groups through Irish and other social activities for young children through Irish, you can ensure that they form their friendships in Irish, which will in turn help to ensure that Irish is used as the language of communication in that group over time.

Gael Mire · 04-09-2015 2:08pm

inocybe wrote: »

what other country would sanction stopping people moving to an area based on the language they speak? Imagine if it was reversed, no Irish speaking families allowed to buy houses in a certain town. Nasty policy.

People weren't stopped based on the language they speak, it was the end of the Celtic Tiger and the building of sprawling housing estates in these areas that has put a stop to the major influx of Non-Irish speakers. Of course there are still non-Irish speakers that move to the Gaeltacht today, there is no problem there, but the major influx that was rapidly changing the linguistic makeup of whole areas has ended.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 2:14pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I suppose the first point that needs to be made is that the strength or otherwise of language communities is not determined by the funding structure of the media available in that language.

Why then is promotion of the Irish language sprawled across every media outlet?

Gael Mire wrote: »

The second point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with publicly funded media, in many ways it is better than private media. There is nothing fundamentally unhealthy or undignified in the majority of media in a society or language group being funded publicly. As for dependence on state support, it is not true to say that all Irish language media is completely dependent on state support. As for media in English, the commercial viability of much of the supposedly private media in this country would be severely shaken if all public money and support was closed off to them.

Nonsense. If all state funding for media was removed tomorrow, I know which language all the surviving media would be in.

Gael Mire · 04-09-2015 2:43pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why then is promotion of the Irish language sprawled across every media outlet?

I'm sorry, i'm not sure what this question has to do with what I said. The vitality of languages is not assessed by the media available in that language or how that media is funded. If you can show me a linguistic study that used those as the metric by which the vitality of a language was assessed then fair enough, but you wont be able to because its not.

Nonsense. If all state funding for media was removed tomorrow, I know which language all the surviving media would be in.

No doubt there would still be media available in both, because there is an audience for media in both, the point is, it would be much reduced in both because the media in both languages is heavily dependent of public support. Not that there is anything unusual or problematic in this, just that it is entirely incorrect to suggest that it is only Irish language media that rely's on state funding.

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 2:52pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I'm sorry, i'm not sure what this question has to do with what I said. The vitality of languages is not assessed by the media available in that language or how that media is funded. If you can show me a linguistic study that used those as the metric by which the vitality of a language was assessed then fair enough, but you wont be able to because its not.

Why are there so many state run Irish media services then, utterly disproportionate to the user base? BTW, you're the one saying Irish is kicking on when every piece of data we have says it's f**ked. Care to present anything other than "I speak Irish and I said so" for our consideration?

Gael Mire wrote: »

No doubt there would still be media available in both, because there is an audience for media in both, the point is, it would be much reduced in both because the media in both languages is heavily dependent of public support. Not that there is anything unusual or problematic in this, just that it is entirely incorrect to suggest that it is only Irish language media that rely's on state funding.

Irish media would drop to zero based on current funding sources.
We would lose most of RTE, who might struggle on using ad revenue.
Now, tell me, what terrible thing will happen to my other 500 TV channels and heap of newspapers if state funding, which they weren't getting anyway, were to disappear?

Carlos Orange · 04-09-2015 3:21pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

No doubt there would still be media available in both, because there is an audience for media in both, the point is, it would be much reduced in both because the media in both languages is heavily dependent of public support. Not that there is anything unusual or problematic in this, just that it is entirely incorrect to suggest that it is only Irish language media that rely's on state funding.

What national Irish language media exists that isn't publicly supported?

Gael Mire · 04-09-2015 3:32pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why are there so many state run Irish media services then, utterly disproportionate to the user base? BTW, you're the one saying Irish is kicking on when every piece of data we have says it's f**ked. Care to present anything other than "I speak Irish and I said so" for our consideration?

The number of Irish speakers, both in the country as a whole and in the Gaeltacht has increased over the last decade. Nationally, the language is doing quite well, there is widespread support for it, more young people able to speak it and more opportunities in it.

In the Gaeltacht there is indeed a problem, the large influx of non-Irish speakers into several Gaeltacht areas has significantly effected the linguistic make up of those areas which has a knock on effect on the use of Irish in the community. These problems are very real, but they are not the collapse of Irish as you suggest, indeed the number of Irish speakers has not fallen at all. It is a matter of assimilating the English speaking newcomers into the Irish speaking community. This can be done and is being done in many areas, including my own, there are some other areas where it may not succeed, this remains to be seen.

Irish media would drop to zero based on current funding sources.
We would lose most of RTE, who might struggle on using ad revenue.
Now, tell me, what terrible thing will happen to my other 500 TV channels and heap of newspapers if state funding, which they weren't getting anyway, were to disappear?

No, it would not, Irish media existed without state support before the state existed, it has existed without state support since, and it exists now without state support. True much Irish media does get state support, which is as it should be, but Irish media would still exist if all state support was taken away. At the end of the day, there is an audience for it.

As for the so-called private media in English, if all public money were to be cut off, you would see far more shutting up shop than just RTÉ, your heap of newspapers for example, most of them would not survive a month without their state advertising revenue. As for the rest, some would survive intact, others would have to increase/introduce charges which would restrict their audience. It would be a significant upheaval.

Carlos Orange · 04-09-2015 3:37pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

As for the so-called private media in English, if all public money were to be cut off, you would see far more shutting up shop than just RTÉ, your heap of newspapers for example, most of them would not survive a month without their state advertising revenue. As for the rest, some would survive intact, others would have to increase/introduce charges which would restrict their audience. It would be a significant upheaval.

I would say a lot of things would change if the entire government stopped existing but stopping artificially supporting the Irish language isn't the same thing as shutting down the entire government.

The Irish language is failing.

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