The Irish language is failing.

Gael Mire

psinno wrote: »

What national Irish language media exists that isn't publicly supported?

Seachtain - An Irish language Newspaper produced by the Irish Independent.

Gael Mire

psinno wrote: »

I would say a lot of things would change if the entire government stopped existing but stopping artificially supporting the Irish language isn't the same thing as shutting down the entire government.

Who said anything about the entire government not existing? In terms of English media, all that is in question is that there be no public funding of media and that all public money and benefits in kind be withheld from private media.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

The number of Irish speakers, both in the country as a whole and in the Gaeltacht has increased over the last decade. Nationally, the language is doing quite well, there is widespread support for it, more young people able to speak it and more opportunities in it.

Source please.

Gael Mire wrote: »

As for the so-called private media in English, if all public money were to be cut off, you would see far more shutting up shop than just RTÉ, your heap of newspapers for example, most of them would not survive a month without their state advertising revenue. As for the rest, some would survive intact, others would have to increase/introduce charges which would restrict their audience. It would be a significant upheaval.

"so-called"? LOL. Where did you get this stuff about state advertising? I'm looking through today's papers and don't see any of it. I can't remember seeing an awful lot of it on Sky One, BBC News or the SyFy channel either. But they'll close without state backing?
You really think anybody buys that?

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Seachtain - An Irish language Newspaper produced by the Irish Independent.

No it isn't. It's a free supplement to the main paper.
I wonder how many people buy the Independent that one day of the week just to get the "free" Irish supplement...

Carlos Orange

Gael Mire wrote: »

Who said anything about the entire government not existing? In terms of English media, all that is in question is that there be no public funding of media and that all public money and benefits in kind be withheld from private media.

I'm pretty sure you know that isn't what is being talked about. Pretty sure.

Anyway it would be great if that happened. Instant boost to the profit margin of the company I work for.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Source please.

Its all there in the census, the number of Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen, the number of daily Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen, in each census since 2002 (thats as far back as I went, feel free to look back to 96 and 91 to see how far back the trend goes) In 2006 a new question was added, 'speaks Irish daily outside of school. the number of daily Irish speakers outside the education system rose between 2006 and 2011 in both the state and in the Gaeltacht.

"so-called"? LOL. Where did you get this stuff about state advertising? I'm looking through today's papers and don't see any of it. I can't remember seeing an awful lot of it on Sky One, BBC News or the SyFy channel either. But they'll close without state backing?
You really think anybody buys that?

You can be sure BBC news would be toast without state backing, it just happens not to be our state doing the funding. Sure our state money does not support it, but then our public money does not support Irish language media in the North either, the British support that.
(The BBC has an obligation to support some Irish language content.)
As for the others, they can get support from the public purse in a variety of ways, often in ways that don't stand out too much such as commission/part grant aid for projects, tax breaks, benefits in kind that reduce their costs like the sources that the state provides them, PR departments issuing press releases that they can pass off as news (reducing the cost of investigative journalism for private media). Believe it or not, there is also state funded advertising, several newspapers such as the Times for example would be on very shaky ground without advertising revenue from the state. If your interested in the topic there are any number of Media Studies books that will go through the funding/ownership structures of media and its implications for society.

There is also the reality that the market share of channels like SkyOne and the SiFi channel are minuscule in Ireland, much smaller than TG4 for example.

LordSutch

Gael Mire wrote: »

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Source please.

Its all there in the census, the number of Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen, the number of daily Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen, in each census since 2002 (thats as far back as I went, feel free to look back to 96 and 91 to see how far back the trend goes) In 2006 a new question was added, 'speaks Irish daily outside of school. The number of daily Irish speakers outside the education system rose between 2006 and 2011 in both the state and in the Gaeltacht.

I seem to remember this exact topic being discussed several times in the recent past "re people's answer on the Census form" to the question "Do you speak Irish outside of school"? Or " Do you speak Irish on a regular basis at home" etc etc etc, or questions to that effect.

..of course you then have to ask what speaking Irish means? For me it would be the Cupla Focal, same for my wife, same for most people we know too, yet some of those people answered Yes to the speaking Irish on a regular basis question! presumably while helping to do their children's homework.

So how do we know that the real level of Irih speakers has gone up?

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Its all there in the census, the number of Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen, the number of daily Irish speakers in the state and in the Gaeltacht has risen

Wikipedia wrote:

96,628 people up from 91,862

So that's up 5.18%
Hmm, but the population in 2011 was 4,581,269 up from 4,239,848. Up 8.05%. So as a percentage of the Irish population, Irish usage is FALLING. Irish is, in fact become more of a minority language. Glad we cleared that up.

Gael Mire wrote: »

You can be sure BBC news would be toast without state backing

We can be sure. The BBC doesn't have ads. This was never asked though.

Gael Mire wrote: »

As for the others, they can get support from the public purse in a variety of ways, often in ways that don't stand out too much such as commission/part grant aid for projects, tax breaks, benefits in kind that reduce their costs like the sources that the state provides them

But this is all stuff that EVERYBODY gets. There is nothing specific in them relating to the English language. I suppose now you'll make out that English language media is supported by the state because they build the roads the reporters drive to work on.

Gael Mire wrote: »

There is also the reality that the market share of channels like SkyOne and the SiFi channel are minuscule in Ireland, much smaller than TG4 for example.

It's a reality that individually there are many, many channels with less viewership than TG4. Collectively, the Irish language viewership is 1.9%. The vast majority of the rest are English.

Dan_Solo

LordSutch wrote: »

..of course you then have to ask what speaking Irish means? For me it would be the Cupla Focal, same for my wife, same for most people we know too, yet some of those people answered Yes to the speaking Irish on a regular basis question! presumably while helping to do their children's homework.

LOL, yes answering truthfully there's probably a million daily Irish speakers outside school... they're doing their homework!

LordSutch

You might say that I am an Irish speaker too, because I can speak the Cupla Focal.

...but am I really an Irish speaker?

I would say no.

Gael Mire

LordSutch wrote: »

You might say that I am an Irish speaker too, because I can speak the Cupla Focal.

...but am I really an Irish speaker?

I would say no.

So then what might I ask is the evidence that Irish is in decline? It may equally be the case that there is under reporting with people not saying they speak Irish because they do not consider themselves fluent or regular enough speakers?
If people were putting themselves down as Irish speakers based on having a Cúpla Focal then the figures should be well up in the 90% range. That they are not gives the lie to your point.

In any case, either the information available is reliable or not, it cannot be reliable when used to support one argument and not reliable when used to support another.
Either you accept what it says or you accept that you don't know what the situation is.
And even if its not accurate, the trend remains, you will have to explain why more people are claiming to be Irish speakers than were previously.

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

So then what might I ask is the evidence that Irish is in decline? .

Top hit for 'decline in Irish in the Gaeltacht', from RTE (May 29, 2015)

A report published today concludes that Irish will no longer be the primary language in any Gaeltacht community in ten years time.
The research, commissioned by State agency Údarás na Gaeltachta, is based on census figures for 2006 and 2011.
The authors conclude that the social use of Irish in the Gaeltacht is declining at an even more rapid rate than predicted in their last report in 2007.
...

The research shows that of the 155 electoral divisions in the Gaeltacht, only 21 are communities where Irish is spoken on a daily basis by 67% or more of the population. 67% is regarded as a tipping point for language survival.

...

The Irish Language Commissioner, Rónán Ó Domhnaill, has expressed concern at what he describes as the worrying decline of the use of the Irish language in Gaeltacht areas.
Speaking on RTÉ's News at One, Mr Ó Domhnaill said the finding did not come as a surprise to him. He said the reports shows just how difficult it is to keep Irish alive in Gaeltacht areas despite efforts by community members.

Carlos Orange

LordSutch wrote: »

You might say that I am an Irish speaker too, because I can speak the Cupla Focal.

I would really love to see some proper survey results on this. Something that gets people to evaluate their own ability but also that evaluates them practically with an oral component.

LordSutch

psinno wrote: »

I would really love to see some proper survey results on this. Something that gets people to evaluate their own ability but also that evaluates them practically with an oral component.

Well indeed. So maybe some mechanism like a political poll (Milward Brown type poll for example) wherby several hundred people are approached in the street and questioned (in Irish) by a fluent Irish speaker! This of type of poll would give us a very good idea of the real level in a given area. Take Dublin's O'Connell Street on a Saturday afternoon for example.

So I wonder just how many people would be able to engage & converse in Irish in such an experiment?

And would the results mirror the results given in the Census figures, or might we get (well yes I can speak Irish), but not when I'm stopped on O'Connell Street without warning, and asked to answer questions in Irish, without being properly prepared

Carlos Orange

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed. So maybe some mechanism like a political poll (Milward Brown type poll for example) wherby several hundred people are approached in the street and questioned (in Irish) by a fluent Irish speaker!

Half of me is tempted to script up a robo caller and find out but the other half is pretty sure that mightn't be entirely legal.

Shep_Dog

LordSutch wrote: »

Well indeed. So maybe some mechanism like a political poll (Milward Brown type poll for example) wherby several hundred people are approached in the street and questioned (in Irish) by a fluent Irish speaker!

You mean like this: http://www.thejournal.ie/video-speak-irish-to-strangers-662354-Nov2012/

ONE OF THE MAIN criticisms of the Irish language – and the way it’s perceived in Ireland – is the fact that it’s rarely heard in everyday use outside of certain areas.
So, here’s what happens when you try to speak Irish to someone on the street.
Aodhán Ó Deá tried to see how well he could be directed around Baile Átha Cliath when speaking only as gaeilge. Here’s how he got on.
The stunt is a promotion for Bliain na Gaeilge 2013, a year-long celebration of the language – tying into The Gathering – and to mark the 120th anniversary of the founding of Conradh na Gaeilge.

I think the Luas vending machine had the nicest accent.....

AnLonDubh

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Hyde wrote strongly about the need to de-Anglisize Ireland and poured scorn on Irish people's appetite for English 'penny dreadfuls'.

Hyde wrote one essay about the importation of recent English habits, Hyde himself was English culturally, and many of things he praises in that essay are just older English imports. He also thought penny dreadfuls, like many British commentators at the time, were trash.

However this doesn't really explain why he would be spinning in his grave, people don't read the literature he disliked, and many of the traits he complained of ceased to found towards the end of his own life.

Shep_Dog

AnLonDubh wrote: »

However this doesn't really explain why he would be spinning in his grave, people don't read the literature he disliked, and many of the traits he complained of ceased to found towards the end of his own life.

Well, his 'reinstate Irish as common language of Ireland' project is over 100 years behind schedule and the average Irish person consumes the modern equivalents of the English periodicals he despised. Irish enthusiasts are lobbying for a radio station that plays the same trashy music as 2FM, but with Irish-speaking DJs.

That's hardly the Ireland Hyde wanted for us.

Carlos Orange

Shep_Dog wrote: »

That's hardly the Ireland Hyde wanted for us.

Anyone kicked out of the GAA for watching a football match can't be all bad.

AnLonDubh

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Well, his 'reinstate Irish as common language of Ireland' project is over 100 years behind schedule and the average Irish person consumes the modern equivalents of the English periodicals he despised.

Hyde didn't want to reinstate Irish, he explicitly says so in his writings. Also it is difficult to say that Irish people consume the modern equivalents of the periodicals he discussed, as I said, he had no problem with English periodicals, just not those of the 1880/90s, which he felt were inferior from those of his childhood in the 1860s/70s. Again, most of the cultural practices Hyde praises in his essays are English. It would be difficult to say if anything modern is closer to a periodical of the 1860s as opposed to one of the 1890s, I'd say they're just completely different from both.

dr.fuzzenstein

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Hyde didn't want to reinstate Irish, he explicitly says so in his writings. Also it is difficult to say that Irish people consume the modern equivalents of the periodicals he discussed, as I said, he had no problem with English periodicals, just not those of the 1880/90s, which he felt were inferior from those of his childhood in the 1860s/70s. Again, most of the cultural practices Hyde praises in his essays are English. It would be difficult to say if anything modern is closer to a periodical of the 1860s as opposed to one of the 1890s, I'd say they're just completely different from both.

There is no current literary equivalent of penny dreadfuls since no one reads books anymore. If he used them as an example to signify cheap, braindead trash, by morons for morons, we'd have to look at reality TV (Housewives of Orange County anyone?) and the televisual equivalent of faecal vomiting, X factor. This probably has as much to do with Irish as penny dreadfuls and I'm not sure about the point Hyde was raising, but if it's still valid, that's where you have to look.

Reiver

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

There is no current literary equivalent of penny dreadfuls since no one reads books anymore. If he used them as an example to signify cheap, braindead trash, by morons for morons, we'd have to look at reality TV (Housewives of Orange County anyone?) and the televisual equivalent of faecal vomiting, X factor. This probably has as much to do with Irish as penny dreadfuls and I'm not sure about the point Hyde was raising, but if it's still valid, that's where you have to look.

We should close the thread after that.

irishfeen

I posted this before on another thread but I still think it holds through - I think something like this would work.

1. National School should be based almost totally on talking the language with the basics of the written language taught, maybe a breakdown of 70% of time dedicated to children being able to hold a decent conversation (for their level) and understanding what they are saying.

2. During an entrance exams into secondary school, an oral exam should taken with Irish teachers to decide a child's proficiency in the language... if a child is relatively poor at conversing at the language then he/she should be separated and classes should be run throughout 1st year to improve it with the written language being slowly increased before 2nd year. At the end of 3rd year the JC should be focused say 70-30% on talking the language in everyday conversation - we don't wan't Shakespeare's we want children to be able to speak the language.

3. After JC, Irish should be dropped as a compulsory subject and those who do higher should be awarded with extra points as with Maths at the moment... During transition year those who choose Irish as a LC subject should be brought for a period of time to the Gaeltacht (say 2 weeks)... not for the language to be bate into them but for them to be immersed into it in everyday talk, activities with the locals and most importantly to have fun with their friends and peers. It would reinvigorate Gaeltacht areas and improve the spoken language among the children.

4. The leaving should be used to perfect the language in terms of speaking and writing the language with the written language taking precedence in terms of study again say 70-30%... students should be allowed to come up with new innovative ways to show exactly what they can do with the language (along with the set state oral and written exams) ... such as what lurgan did with Avicci's Wake Me Up (combing music or other subjects with the language) , maybe turning great English pieces of literature into Irish... etc... the possibilities are endless and say 15% of final marks should be put aside for students to do what they want with the language.

5. All teachers (Primary/Secondary) teaching the Irish language should as part of college be sent to the Gaeltacht for a 6/12 month long study in the language, these graduates could also be used for the various activities open to the transition year students visiting.

Dan_Solo

irishfeen wrote: »

I posted this before on another thread but I still think it holds through - I think something like this would work.

Maybe it would work. Maybe it wouldn't.
The real question is why should we care? We have a common language already, one understood almost worldwide. English.
What's the point?

DanielODonnell

It isn't understood well in many places I have worked, Polish was the main language in my last workplace.

feargale

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The amount of money expended on providing TV and radio entertainment to Irish speakers is grossly disproportionate to their numbers. That is not fair. More to the point is that Irish-language media has become completely dependent on state-funding, this is not healthy and signals that, as a cultural entity, Irish does not have an independent, dignified existence. While it is true that English-speakers can enjoy state-funded media, they also have independent newspapers, radio and TV stations. This is the difference in vigour between the failing Irish language community and the thriving English language one.

I take it from this that you don't read or listen to anything in Irish, and that you are utterly unaware of the amount of abuse dished out to the government in various Irish language organs.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

I take it from this that you don't read or listen to anything in Irish, and that you are utterly unaware of he amount of abuse dished out to the government in various Irish language organs.

Wha? He wasn't talking about what was being said in Irish, he was talking about the state of the Irish language. It's basically on life support waiting for somebody to have the balls to turn off the machine.

kieranfitz

irishfeen wrote: »

2. During an entrance exams into secondary school, an oral exam should taken with Irish teachers to decide a child's proficiency in the language... if a child is relatively poor at conversing at the language then he/she should be separated and classes should be run throughout 1st year to improve it with the written language being slowly increased before 2nd year. At the end of 3rd year the JC should be focused say 70-30% on talking the language in everyday conversation - we don't wan't Shakespeare's we want children to be able to speak the language.

What schools have entrance exams anymore?

Dan_Solo

kieranfitz wrote: »

What schools have entrance exams anymore?

Only all of them.

Shep_Dog

feargale wrote: »

I take it from this that you don't read or listen to anything in Irish, and that you are utterly unaware of he amount of abuse dished out to the government in various Irish language organs.

I am not at all surprised to hear that Irish speakers are dishing out abuse.

I guess it's about more money for them, the Official Languages Act not being rigorously applied and their opposition to the repeal of compulsory Irish for English speaking children?