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I don't agree with the schooling system?

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13

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    #62
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    I thought third level education was ultimately free in Ireland? For your first tertiary entrance? I mean, I'm aware of course there are always registration fees and fees for books etc etc. but in New Zealand where I was born and did my degree we had to pay thousands. I thought initial tuition fees here were free or subsidised or something no? Ireland tbh, has it very good compared to other countries...?
    Think it's at least two grand a year unless you get a grant


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    #63
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Stheno wrote: »
    Think it's at least two grand a year unless you get a grant

    I know 2k is a lot but That's peanuts compared to third year tuition costs in most other countries tho no?? Is that not like An enrolment or registration fee?


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    #64
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    I know 2k is a lot but That's peanuts compared to third year tuition costs in most other countries tho no?? Is that not like An enrolment or registration fee?

    I think so am not sure

    I'm doing a part time masters with an English uni and fees are almost four grand this year


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    #65
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    I know 2k is a lot but That's peanuts compared to third year tuition costs in most other countries tho no?? Is that not like An enrolment or registration fee?

    Yes. And it's one reason the Irish university sector is so underfunded and in danger of racing to the bottom at h high speed.


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    #66
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Stheno wrote: »
    I think so am not sure

    I'm doing a part time masters with an English uni and fees are almost four grand this year

    Did my masters in Ireland and was 10k. But that's not classes as a first undergrad degree...


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    #67
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    Did my masters in Ireland and was 10k. But that's not classes as a first undergrad degree...

    Sorry didn't mean it as a direct comparison


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    #68
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    what if the 80 euro or whatever school fee meant you missed a mortgage payment?

    wrong approach to third level. higher cost prevents more people access into the education system creating bigger problems as ive mentioned earlier. what do you propose should be done with these increased fees? what in your mind is junk status? just so we re a little clear.

    It's school, they are well used to people have issues like this I'm sure. There are instalment options and I'm sure for genuine hardship they will work something out. I'm one of the lucky ones, 80 quid is nothing compared to what some people pay between books, uniform etc.


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    #69
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Stheno wrote: »
    Sorry didn't mean it as a direct comparison

    Yea I know. And post grads are really expensive. I was just comparing Ireland to other countries really. Ireland has so many benefits and subsidies and allowances that other countries don't have. And ultimately they do have free tuition for tertiary education of it is your first degree etc...


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    #70
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    Yea I know. And post grads are really expensive. I was just comparing Ireland to other countries really. Ireland has so many benefits and subsidies and allowances that other countries don't have. And ultimately they do have free tuition for tertiary education of it is your first degree etc...

    Exactly. Students here don't come out of an undergraduate with 100k of student loans.


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    #71
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    pwurple wrote: »
    Exactly. Students here don't come out of an undergraduate with 100k of student loans.

    Precisely! My siblings and I came out of new Zealand's with great degrees but massive massive student loans! They worked non stopped during their college years aswell and were helped out by my parents. My husband on the other hand who would've been from quite a less well off family than us went to college in Ireland. He worked A couple days per week in the local tesco which funded his nights out on the beer (2-3 per week) and has also come out with a good degree but no college loan whatsoever. Something which working in tesco or his parents definitely did not cover. Having said that he did live with granny (minimal rent) which would've helped. But the difference is very significant!


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    #72
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    i remember meeting an indian born guy on a flight coming back from san francisco many moons ago. he went to one of the big universities in america. he said he left university with a mortgage long before he bought a house and started a family. is this what irish people want? im just wondering, has ireland truly learned anything from this recession? are people realising that debt creation truly caused this recession or am i the only one seeing this? have i truly gone mad or something? im deeply concerned about this as im starting to realise that im almost alone on my thinking on these matters, even or politicians dont see it. we have got to stop thinking that debt is the solution to our problems


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    #73
    doc11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭doc11


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i remember meeting an indian born guy on a flight coming back from san francisco many moons ago. he went to one of the big universities in america. he said he left university with a mortgage long before he bought a house and started a family. is this what irish people want? im just wondering, has ireland truly learned anything from this recession? are people realising that debt creation truly caused this recession or am i the only one seeing this? have i truly gone mad or something? im deeply concerned about this as im starting to realise that im almost alone on my thinking on these matters, even or politicians dont see it. we have got to stop thinking that debt is the solution to our problems

    So the tax payers should be burdened with someones educational mortgage?If you get the benefit of college why should someone who never went help fund it. Your receiving the salary benefit of higher education, no one else. Do you want to pay the indians guys mortgage too? Why not?


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    #74
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Debt is definitely not a solution obviously. But you also can't have everything for nothing....


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    #75
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yup gone mad i have. anybody got the number of a mental health hospital? these ideas of free education and free health care are clearly nuts ideas. i must rid them! as i say, rinse repeat! welcome to world and irish mentality regarding economics and other such issues mentioned earlier. we dont have a hope as a country


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    #76
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    But Ireland does have free education. If u don't want to pay for books then go to a library and get them out for free...


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    #77
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i remember meeting an indian born guy on a flight coming back from san francisco many moons ago. he went to one of the big universities in america. he said he left university with a mortgage long before he bought a house and started a family. is this what irish people want? im just wondering, has ireland truly learned anything from this recession? are people realising that debt creation truly caused this recession or am i the only one seeing this? have i truly gone mad or something? im deeply concerned about this as im starting to realise that im almost alone on my thinking on these matters, even or politicians dont see it. we have got to stop thinking that debt is the solution to our problems

    I presume went to Berkeley which comes about 5th or 6th best university in the world in recent years. If you qualify for this university and if you want to effectively get an early mortgage, then by all means do so. This man did and presumably he figured that by going to one of the best universities in the world, he'd earn back the huge fees.

    A few things to note though. His parents presumably were not from an elitist background and fees did not s stop this man from achieving his goals. Furthermore, you can be sure that his parents weren't ringing Joe Duffy over having to pay 80 euro for school material and towards his education. Because if they did, you can be damn sure that he wouldn't have made it to Berkeley or UCLA.

    Now I'm not suggesting that ucd or trinity should be charging those kind of crazy fees but the belief that you can have quality universities without appropriate fees is not realistic.


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    #78
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Sligo1 wrote: »
    But Ireland does have free education. If u don't want to pay for books then go to a library and get them out for free...

    wow, i ll leave the parents reading this explain to you why this is almost 100% wrong, since im not a parent. please dont believe everything the politicians tell you. you might just get into a wee bit of trouble in life if you do.


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    #79
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    I presume went to Berkeley which comes about 5th or 6th best university in the world in recent years. If you qualify for this university and if you want to effectively get an early mortgage, then by all means do so. This man did and presumably he figured that by going to one of the best universities in the world, he'd earn back the huge fees.

    A few things to note though. His parents presumably were not from an elitist background and fees did not s stop this man from achieving his goals. Furthermore, you can be sure that his parents weren't ringing Joe Duffy over having to pay 80 euro for school material and towards his education. Because if they did, you can be damn sure that he wouldn't have made it to Berkeley or UCLA.

    Now I'm not suggesting that ucd or trinity should be charging those kind of crazy fees but the belief that you can have quality universities without appropriate fees is not realistic.

    yea he went to one of the big ones, cant remember for the life of me which one though. that was a few years ago now. the thing was, he was 40 odd, sitting with me in economy, and said he was still paying back his college fees. scared the bejesus out of me. i think he said he was still sending money home at that stage. wouldnt say his parents were all that well off. i was well impressed with him.

    ive luckily passed through trinity and ucd with no debts after it. id like to see others have the same opportunities ive had and more. i dont want to see families struggle to educate their kids. ive had some amazing opportunities due to our 'free' education system.


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    #80
    mohawk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭mohawk


    when they got rid of fees in Ireland it was the sons and daughters of farmers and tradesmen etc that started to go to third level. While these people did not come from deprived backgrounds their parents most likely would not of been able to sent 2/3 children to third level. A lot of people I went to college with were the first in their family to go to college.

    College graduates in America earn a lot more then they do in Ireland and by keeping college expensive this will continue to be the case.

    Regarding the OP my son in in Junior infants in local catholic school. The first thing they do in the morning is play for 30 mins. There is no blackboard in the classroom. They go to the computer room 3 times a week for maths. My son is on autism spectrum and his resource hours are used to focus on his social skills as its where he struggles most. His teacher believes school is much more than learning to read and write. I think primary school is very different place to what it was for us parents.


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    #81
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    mohawk wrote: »
    when they got rid of fees in Ireland it was the sons and daughters of farmers and tradesmen etc that started to go to third level. While these people did not come from deprived backgrounds their parents most likely would not of been able to sent 2/3 children to third level. A lot of people I went to college with were the first in their family to go to college.

    College graduates in America earn a lot more then they do in Ireland and by keeping college expensive this will continue to be the case.

    Regarding the OP my son in in Junior infants in local catholic school. The first thing they do in the morning is play for 30 mins. There is no blackboard in the classroom. They go to the computer room 3 times a week for maths. My son is on autism spectrum and his resource hours are used to focus on his social skills as its where he struggles most. His teacher believes school is much more than learning to read and write. I think primary school is very different place to what it was for us parents.

    i wouldnt have had a hope of going to college if it werent for our 'free' education system. parents would not have been able to afford it and my father was a civil servant at the time. i was the first to go. delighted i did so. best experiences ive ever had.

    delighted to hear that about your son. we certainly have come along way in regards learning disabilities etc. have you seen a noticeable reduction in funding and services regarding your sons education?


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    #82
    SMJSF
    Registered Users Posts: 600 ✭✭✭SMJSF


    I do agree to an extent that the education system is a mush!!!

    I went to 2 primary schools, never bothered me, but it was the secondary schools which made me realize that the system is totally crazy!

    I went to a Catholic private school (recommended by my 6th class teacher-big mistake) and didn't last two years.
    It was run by nuns and there way of teaching left my grades in Ds & Es after 1 year.
    They basically bet you into the religious beliefs of God, and wouldn't dare speak of rape or contraception. Great education there.
    In a SPHE class in 2nd year, we had to write questions down about the birds and the bees and for the teacher to read them out and answer them, and I asked how twins were made, (now I knew the answer thanks to my mother teaching me about reproduction at 7) but the teacher skipped it, and the principal rang my guardian at the time and went ballistic at the fact that I asked such a question :/.
    By the time I was 18, the year of 63 students I was in at that school, less than 20 were there for the LC.

    Then went to a non-religious public school for 3rd year, and my grades went up to Bs, they got me into classes I had a interest in that I had good enough grades for, and took me out of ones I just wasn't doing good in.
    I made friends who didn't judge, and I could concentrate on subjects I had a chance at. I got great junior cert results (8 subjects) and went into LCA because the teachers could see I was better at practical work than text books.

    In my case, it shown that fee paying doesn't mean a good education result!

    So it all comes down to the child as an individual, their talants and their ways of learning.
    Strict schooling may suit some, more relaxed approach and concentrating on what is important will suit others.


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    #83
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i wouldnt have had a hope of going to college if it werent for our 'free' education system. parents would not have been able to afford it and my father was a civil servant at the time. i was the first to go. delighted i did so. best experiences ive ever had.

    n?

    Why are you so against it so?


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    #84
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Stheno wrote: »
    Why are you so against it so?

    system needs massive changes for the reasons outlined before. im not repeating myself as im getting tired doing so. im just becoming increasingly worried about the debts families are getting themselves into in trying educate themselves and their kids and im not seeing it getting any easier. i really can see families re-mortgaging their homes in trying to do so. a disturbing idea


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    #85
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    system needs massive changes for the reasons outlined before. im not repeating myself as im getting tired doing so. im just becoming increasingly worried about the debts families are getting themselves into in trying educate themselves and their kids and im not seeing it getting any easier. i really can see families re-mortgaging their homes in trying to do so. a disturbing idea

    I think you need a reality check given you are so opposed to a bill of eighty Euro for book rental for a year

    Most of the books I use professionally and for my masters cost that alone

    The likes of France who have universal access to third level have seen a huge decline in standards

    Third level education is not a right it's a privilege imo and one which is this country is eminently attainable, I've paid for all of mine myself, and there are grants and the likes of btea too


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    #86
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Stheno wrote: »
    I think you need a reality check given you are so opposed to a bill of eighty Euro for book rental for a year

    Most of the books I use professionally and for my masters cost that alone

    The likes of France who have universal access to third level have seen a huge decline in standards

    Third level education is not a right it's a privilege imo and one which is this country is eminently attainable, I've paid for all of mine myself, and there are grants and the likes of btea too

    moving on! rinse repeat ireland! we re sunk!

    listen to some ted talks and you might find out what happens if you dont educate your population. best of luck. ive spoken enough on this matter


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    #87
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    moving on! rinse repeat ireland! we re sunk!

    listen to some ted talks and you might find out what happens if you dont educate your population. best of luck. ive spoken enough on this matter

    Fine just ignore international research, Ted talks are the way of the future


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    #88
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    moving on! rinse repeat ireland! we re sunk!

    listen to some ted talks and you might find out what happens if you dont educate your population. best of luck. ive spoken enough on this matter

    What's the point in providing free universal education if the standard of that education is inadequate. This is a serious issue. As a parent I care not only for the standard of the university system for my own kids but also for the nation they live in. I want them to live in a first class economy with quality research and the best international firms setting up here. I don't want it to come to the point where a good education means sending my kids to the UK.

    I know that you did well through the ahernist system but that was a flawed system as we all know.

    Irish universities must not be allowed to decline like in France.


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    #89
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    moving on! rinse repeat ireland! we re sunk!

    listen to some ted talks and you might find out what happens if you dont educate your population. best of luck. ive spoken enough on this matter

    No one is suggesting we don't educate our population. We're just stating that education needs to be adequately funded.


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    #90
    Sligo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    wow, i ll leave the parents reading this explain to you why this is almost 100% wrong, since im not a parent. please dont believe everything the politicians tell you. you might just get into a wee bit of trouble in life if you do.

    I haven't a clue about politics or politicians. Never listen to any of them. I do my own thing my own way. And one thing I believe in is that a good education is a privilege. And a lot of the time one has to work hard in order to be allowed this privilege. Universities will be buried without adequate funds being pumped into them to fund research etc. otherwise it would be completely substandard and not one I would choose for my children. And I am a parent... So I can comment on this. And thanks, but I don't need any explanations regarding this as I have a masters in the subject :).

    Just to add, you yourself have stated that you have come out of university in Ireland with no personal loans... That's great! What on earth are you complaining about then? I 100% guarantee you if you attended a different university in for example, New Zealand, Australia, America etc... You wouldn't be quite so lucky regarding educational debt.


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    #91
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    What's the point in providing free universal education if the standard of that education is inadequate. This is a serious issue. As a parent I care not only for the standard of the university system for my own kids but also for the nation they live in. I want them to live in a first class economy with quality research and the best international firms setting up here. I don't want it to come to the point where a good education means sending my kids to the UK.

    I know that you did well through the ahernist system but that was a flawed system as we all know.

    Irish universities must not be allowed to decline like in France.
    I fully agree my masters thesis in IT is concerned with a current hot topic in IT and my thesis is very current so much so that peers in my industry have indicated significant interest in reviewing and contributing to it

    I changed from my original topic and emailed and rang my course director with concerns about my supervisor on the topic

    On hearing what it was they immediately switched me as it was of interest

    I doubt most lecturers in Ireland would take that approach


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