I don't agree with the schooling system?

Malabeans

Wanderer78 wrote: »

op you have just sparked off some fairly deep anger im gaining towards our educational system. i feel its failing us in many serious ways. i ll try keep this short but that probably wont happen. for starters, we need to implement a free educational system for all, always. this is putting parents under too much pressure in order to educate their kids. homework has got to stop. it is giving kids the impression that you should spend all day in school(work), working hard, then when its done you have to bring your 'work' home with you or you ll fail! WTF! kids will of course eventually leave the educational system, thinking, this is how i need to behave in order to get ahead in life, i.e. in order to have a successful career, i must put in 12 odd hour days and bring my work home with me or i ll be a failure! this causes detrimental health problems for many. our second level system fails in preparing many kids for adulthood and our third level fails to prepare many for the workforce. there is too much emphasis on the world of academia and not enough time educating kids about industries like the trades. some kids have no interest in the world of academia and may not have the abilities to do so. this can isolate many, some of which many turn to such things as criminality, and some may develop such serious problems such as addiction and mental health problems due to this isolation. after being recently diagnosed with dyslexia, ive realised there must be thousands of people in ireland similar to me and must have struggled like myself through the system. i am aware there has been major developments in our system though regarding these issues but i feel its just not enough. i feel our system is a mess and sadly wont change enough or quickly enough, thus casting many aside and leaving them isolated to the detriment of their well being. i have more strong opinions regarding this matter but i ll leave it at that.

Sorry, I didn't intend to get emotional! haha, it's just something close to my heart that I am very passionate about and yes, I definitely agree with you! Major changes need to be made

Malabeans

eviltwin wrote: »

I understand your concern. My son is five and had aspergers, he doesn't suit sitting at a desk for long periods of time. The educate together has been excellent for him. They do a lot of hands on learning, there is lots of movement in the classroom and they only sit at their desks for handwriting and lunch. They don't use many textbooks either which I think is great. They have a crash and bang room which is full of trampolines, big balls, weighed blankets and if they need a time out they can go into it, they explore philosophy, do lots of messy play, cooking, dance, drama etc. I know the more formal primary school down the road is a lot more traditional and the kind of thing you're talking about. It seems to depend very much on the individual school. You'll find a school that is the right fit.

hello, this sounds amazing! and right up my street! thanks for the information, I'm glad you found something to suit your sons needs, I'm gonna do a bunch of research now, I've read a little bit so far and I'm liking everything I've seen thus far!

Wanderer78

Malabeans wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't intend to get emotional! haha, it's just something close to my heart that I am very passionate about and yes, I definitely agree with you! Major changes need to be made

i feel changes are happening too slowly. not enough money and resources are being put into it

delly

To be considering decisions about education paths and to never have heard of educate together is surprising, they are quite prominent within the country in recent years. Another option would be a Gaelscoil which tend to be non denominational, while educate together schools are multi denominational, although it isn't 100% across the board.

bar32

Just one or 2 points I want to make as a current primary school teacher in a national school. These are geared towards some of the observations made in beginning pages of thread. Obviously the points I am making are not always black and white, lots depends on the teacher themselves...

1. If you are older than 27/28 you would have been taught under a completely different curriculum - much more didactic and "sit at your desk and listen" type of education. Even younger parents below 27ish would have been taught by teachers who were probably trained under the old curriculum. It might have taken a few years for them to get used to it as there is always a learning curve. The new curriculum (while really far from perfect in many ways) is intended to be very child -centric and active. All teachers who graduated after 2000 would definitely have been trained under this system. I suspect a world of difference between an infant classroom in the 80s and nowadays - not necessarily always better, just different.

2. Don't believe for a second that 2 and half hours of Religion is taught in every classroom in Ireland. The curriculum is overloaded. No teacher in their right mind is going sacrifice literacy and numeracy for anything. Think about it - a teacher at the end of the year talking to the parent " Well little Johnny can't multiply 2 digit numbers by 2 digit numbers because I ran out of time. But isn't it great that he can recite so many prayers". I've taught Communion and Confirmation class - prayers get learned for homework, artwork is integrated as part of Art subject. The most I ever did was 30mins of religion in the 2/3 weeks leading up to event. Last year with 6th class I taught less than 5 religion lessons. Anecdotally everyone in my circle of friends who teach don't give religion its time. Way too many other important things to be done! My religion time is timetabled but never used. I generally have English before it and we just plough on through. I suspect most teachers are the same. Btw I'm Catholic but believe it should be taught outside school time.

Laoislion8383

bar32 wrote: »

Just one or 2 points I want to make as a current primary school teacher in a national school. These are geared towards some of the observations made in beginning pages of thread. Obviously the points I am making are not always black and white, lots depends on the teacher themselves...

1. If you are older than 27/28 you would have been taught under a completely different curriculum - much more didactic and "sit at your desk and listen" type of education. Even younger parents below 27ish would have been taught by teachers who were probably trained under the old curriculum. It might have taken a few years for them to get used to it as there is always a learning curve. The new curriculum (while really far from perfect in many ways) is intended to be very child -centric and active. All teachers who graduated after 2000 would definitely have been trained under this system. I suspect a world of difference between an infant classroom in the 80s and nowadays - not necessarily always better, just different.

2. Don't believe for a second that 2 and half hours of Religion is taught in every classroom in Ireland. The curriculum is overloaded. No teacher in their right mind is going sacrifice literacy and numeracy for anything. Think about it - a teacher at the end of the year talking to the parent " Well little Johnny can't multiply 2 digit numbers by 2 digit numbers because I ran out of time. But isn't it great that he can recite so many prayers". I've taught Communion and Confirmation class - prayers get learned for homework, artwork is integrated as part of Art subject. The most I ever did was 30mins of religion in the 2/3 weeks leading up to event. Last year with 6th class I taught less than 5 religion lessons. Anecdotally everyone in my circle of friends who teach don't give religion its time. Way too many other important things to be done! My religion time is timetabled but never used. I generally have English before it and we just plough on through. I suspect most teachers are the same. Btw I'm Catholic but believe it should be taught outside school time.

Would the local parish priest not call every so often to check on the kids religious learning thereby your teaching of the subject? I know they are not in the class room everyday and you are the teacher and set the timetable for the day and that is the way it should be, what I am getting at is are you under pressure to include the allotted time for religion in the daily or weekly time table??

bar32

In my experience, the priests who I have worked with (4 in total) don't really come in to check understanding/learning. Now I know this is the case in some schools but not in mine. There is not a whole lot they can say or do in order to change what happens within a classroom or a teacher's approach.

I think priests on the ground have become realistic about expectations regarding communion and confirmation. My own school at moment is based in typical small town Ireland - not inner city. I've done a poll every year of regular mass goers - regular meaning once a month! I had 6 out of 34 and 5 out of 28 in my last 2 years from memory. The priest understands this fact also. No parent has ever complained to me about lack of religion being done. If the priest said anything I'd either give him a short enough answer or I'd let him think that there was more being done.

Many teachers box clever - a strategic piece of artwork can give the impression of a lot of religion being done. Maybe 3 or 4 songs and a few prayers. I guarantee that religion is not being taught to the level that everyone thinks it is.

Wanderer78

bar32 wrote: »

In my experience, the priests who I have worked with (4 in total) don't really come in to check understanding/learning. Now I know this is the case in some schools but not in mine. There is not a whole lot they can say or do in order to change what happens within a classroom or a teacher's approach.

I think priests on the ground have become realistic about expectations regarding communion and confirmation. My own school at moment is based in typical small town Ireland - not inner city. I've done a poll every year of regular mass goers - regular meaning once a month! I had 6 out of 34 and 5 out of 28 in my last 2 years from memory. The priest understands this fact also. No parent has ever complained to me about lack of religion being done. If the priest said anything I'd either give him a short enough answer or I'd let him think that there was more being done.

Many teachers box clever - a strategic piece of artwork can give the impression of a lot of religion being done. Maybe 3 or 4 songs and a few prayers. I guarantee that religion is not being taught to the level that everyone thinks it is.

im impressed with your work. fair play to you

Laoislion8383

bar32 wrote: »

In my experience, the priests who I have worked with (4 in total) don't really come in to check understanding/learning. Now I know this is the case in some schools but not in mine. There is not a whole lot they can say or do in order to change what happens within a classroom or a teacher's approach.

I think priests on the ground have become realistic about expectations regarding communion and confirmation. My own school at moment is based in typical small town Ireland - not inner city. I've done a poll every year of regular mass goers - regular meaning once a month! I had 6 out of 34 and 5 out of 28 in my last 2 years from memory. The priest understands this fact also. No parent has ever complained to me about lack of religion being done. If the priest said anything I'd either give him a short enough answer or I'd let him think that there was more being done.

Many teachers box clever - a strategic piece of artwork can give the impression of a lot of religion being done. Maybe 3 or 4 songs and a few prayers. I guarantee that religion is not being taught to the level that everyone thinks it is.

Yes I second that fair play, with teachers like you the future of our kids is in good hands..

pwurple

Laoislion8383 wrote: »

Would the local parish priest not call every so often to check on the kids religious learning thereby your teaching of the subject? I know they are not in the class room everyday and you are the teacher and set the timetable for the day and that is the way it should be, what I am getting at is are you under pressure to include the allotted time for religion in the daily or weekly time table??

Of course not. The schools my friends teach in, the priest gives notice and the children hastily do up a may table or something. I don't even understand how you could follow half the irish language and exclude religion though. buiochas le dia, Dia duit, dia is mhuire agat, etc. it's like chopping off your left arm in Ireland not learning religion. No context for our art, language or history.

Wanderer78

Laoislion8383 wrote: »

Yes I second that fair play, with teachers like you the future of our kids is in good hands..

ive realized the problem with our system is not really with the people working within our system but with the system itself. our system has some of the most amazing people working within it as you can see from posters.

pwurple wrote: »

Of course not. The schools my friends teach in, the priest gives notice and the children hastily do up a may table or something. I don't even understand how you could follow half the irish language and exclude religion though. buiochas le dia, Dia duit, dia is mhuire agat, etc. it's like chopping off your left arm in Ireland not learning religion. No context for our art, language or history.

im afraid language is a big problem for some people, particularly people like myself that have learning disabilities like dyslexia. i like the idea of religion classes including all other world religions.

ezra_pound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ah look, we dont have a free education system and we desperately need one

If you're not willing to spend 80 Euros on your child's education then chances are they are not going to get good educational outcomes. If you don't value education then you can't expect your children to either.

Wanderer78

ezra_pound wrote: »

If you're not willing to spend 80 Euros on your child's education then chances are they are not going to get good educational outcomes. If you don't value education then you can't expect your children to either.

what if you cant actually afford it and all these other wee fees here and there?

ezra_pound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if you cant actually afford it and all these other wee fees here and there?

Less than 1.50 euro a week? Are you in Botswana?

Stheno

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if you cant actually afford it and all these other wee fees here and there?

Evil twin said she pays the eighty Euro and that's it and that's for book rental

Do you expect books to be free?

ezra_pound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if you cant actually afford it and all these other wee fees here and there?

The back to school allowance is e100.00. Evil twin is asked to spend 80.00 on books and art materials for the year. This would leave a qualifying welfare applicant with 20.00 left over for further educational materials.

Wanderer78

ezra_pound wrote: »

Less than 1.50 euro a week? Are you in Botswana?

and this is where it gets very very scary. please look into the amount of families in arrears in their mortgages in this country at the moment. putting it bluntly, a s*it storm is just about to happen in this country regarding this issue. the cost of education goes far beyond the 80 euro here. work out the actual cost and you ll see what im on about. the elephant in the room is actually third level. for parents that havent gotten to this stage yet with their kids, be ready to re-mortgages your homes to do so.

DoctorBoo

ezra_pound wrote: »

Less than 1.50 euro a week? Are you in Botswana?

Wow. What may seem like spare change to you could be an unaffordable sum to others. The recession has devastated people's incomes.

Laoislion8383

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and this is where it gets very very scary. please look into the amount of families in arrears in their mortgages in this country at the moment. putting it bluntly, a s*it storm is just about to happen in this country regarding this issue. the cost of education goes far beyond the 80 euro here. work out the actual cost and you ll see what im on about. the elephant in the room is actually third level. for parents that havent gotten to this stage yet with their kids, be ready to re-mortgages your homes to do so.

Only 10 years till my eldest goes to third level and it scares me, being saving since her first birthday for college but I feel it will fall short

Wanderer78

sorry folks im running. yes all aspects of education should be free. how to we pay for this. with taxes of course. oh and we re paying enough in taxes now. this should be already implemented along with a free health care system. im deeply saddened when theres resistance and what not towards these things. why not keep USC in place and use it pay for all this. i dont think ireland will ever truly move forward without these initiatives.

Wanderer78

Laoislion8383 wrote: »

Only 10 years till my eldest goes to third level and it scares me, being saving since her first birthday for college but I feel it will fall short

your story makes me very angry. you and your partner have worked hard enough and paid enough in taxes

ezra_pound

DoctorBoo wrote: »

Wow. What may seem like spare change to you could be an unaffordable sum to others. The recession has devastated people's incomes.

Firstly. It's your children's education. Secondly the back to school allowance more than covers this cost.

Yes third level education is a scary expense. I agree but unless these costs are increased our third level institutions will descend to junk status which is in nobody's interest.

Laoislion8383

Wanderer78 wrote: »

your story makes me very angry. you and your partner have worked hard enough and paid enough in taxes

Yes but we are fighting the system it's never enough, public services fall so far short in this country, I agree totally with you free education including third level, free health care also but there are too many vested interests calling the shots here and not the clowns we elect who I might add are far too well payed for the job they do

Wanderer78

ezra_pound wrote: »

Firstly. It's your children's education. Secondly the back to school allowance more than covers this cost.

Yes third level education is a scary expense. I agree but unless these costs are increased our third level institutions will descend to junk status which is in nobody's interest.

what if the 80 euro or whatever school fee meant you missed a mortgage payment?

wrong approach to third level. higher cost prevents more people access into the education system creating bigger problems as ive mentioned earlier. what do you propose should be done with these increased fees? what in your mind is junk status? just so we re a little clear.

Stheno

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if the 80 euro or whatever school fee meant you missed a mortgage payment?

wrong approach to third level. higher cost prevents more people access into the education system creating bigger problems as ive mentioned earlier. what do you propose should be done with these increased fees? what in your mind is junk status? just so we re a little clear.

If you get the 100 back to school allowance that covers the eighty book rental so why would that cause you to miss a mortgage payment?

Our universities are slipping in rankings due to being unable to afford top teaching and research staff

Wanderer78

Stheno wrote: »

If you get the 100 back to school allowance that covers the eighty book rental so why would that cause you to miss a mortgage payment?

Our universities are slipping in rankings due to being unable to afford top teaching and research staff

thank you for clarifying the book thing. im not a parent. i know families in arrears in their mortgages. its scary to watch. theyre also struggling to educate their kids.

my opinion, we never dealt with the wastage in our educational system. we re just hoping by throwing money at it, this will solve the problem. this doesnt always work. if you get talking to people working in the system they ll tell you about the wastage here and there in ths system. nothing has really changed in our country over the last few years but debt loading is not the answer. this will cause further, possibly more serious problems.

ezra_pound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

thank you for clarifying the book thing. im not a parent. i know families in arrears in their mortgages. its scary to watch. theyre also struggling to educate their kids.

my opinion, we never dealt with the wastage in our educational system. we re just hoping by throwing money at it, this will solve the problem. this doesnt always work. if you get talking to people working in the system they ll tell you about the wastage here and there in ths system. nothing has really changed in our country over the last few years but debt loading is not the answer. this will cause further, possibly more serious problems.

If we don't adequately fund our universities they will not attract quality academics, research, students or research funding and we'll end up with degrees not worth the paper they're printed on.

The biggest mistake in education policy in this country was free third level education.

Wanderer78

ezra_pound wrote: »

The biggest mistake in education policy in this country was free third level education.

shocking statement. you clearly dont understand the complexities that are created by having an educational system which has a huge barrier such as fees. please, please, dont ever become a politician. please, for the good of the country. oh and we ve never had a free third level system in this country. i ll explain this later. running

ezra_pound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

shocking statement. you clearly dont understand the complexities that are created by having an educational system which has a huge barrier such as fees. please, please, dont ever become a politician. please, for the good of the country. oh and we ve never had a free third level system in this country. i ll explain this later. running

Indeed.

In looking forward to hearing about these complexities.

You sound like an expert on third level education.

Free fees gave a break to the wealthy and well off in this country by exempting them from paying for something which they were willing and able to fund. It did not greatly increase people from deprived backgrounds from going to third level. Instead the poor still left school early and started working on building sites, eating breakfast rolls and paying tax to fund the education of people their own age from wealthy backgrounds.

This is the reality.

Meanwhile our universities have been underfunded and are falling down the international league tables.

The old system of fees and some scholarship programmes for those who could not afford fees was a much better system.

The UK system of college loans is a better system.

What I want is a quality educational system for all, rich or poor.

Sligo1

I thought third level education was ultimately free in Ireland? For your first tertiary entrance? I mean, I'm aware of course there are always registration fees and fees for books etc etc. but in New Zealand where I was born and did my degree we had to pay thousands. I thought initial tuition fees here were free or subsidised or something no? Ireland tbh, has it very good compared to other countries...?