Equality of marriage and love

volchitsa

frostyjacks wrote: »

It didn't say in the article. If a judge is satisfied with it, that's good enough for me.

Aren't you the poster who claimed that six year olds would not take the Virgin birth story at face value even when it's taught in officially sanctioned religion classes?

Hmm. Interesting.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scott N. Johansen, the judge in question, previously made headlines for ordering a mother to cut off her daughter's ponytail in court back in 2012. o_O

He also has a law degree from Brigham Young University, which requires students to abide by the rules of Mormonism (including sexual abstinence), so draw your own conclusions.

The current Mormon leadership isn't too happy with the gays either.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/breaking_mormon_church_decrees_children_of_same_sex_parents_are_apostates_cannot_be_baptized

frostyjacks

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Scott N. Johansen, the judge in question, previously made headlines for ordering a mother to cut off her daughter's ponytail in court back in 2012. o_O

He also has a law degree from Brigham Young University, which requires students to abide by the rules of Mormonism (including sexual abstinence), so draw your own conclusions.

Brigham seems like a decent enough college. It's abstinence from premarital sex, rather than total abstinence. Past students include a Nobel prize winner, business leaders, best selling authors and Napoleon Dynamite. Gosh.

jobbridge4life

frostyjacks wrote: »

Brigham seems like a decent enough college. It's abstinence from premarital sex, rather than total abstinence. Past students include a Nobel prize winner, business leaders, best selling authors and Napoleon Dynamite. Gosh.

Wow Frosty... if you could look all that up what is stopping you from looking up the large amounts of research that demonstrates that children raised in same-sex relationships do just as well as those with opposite sex parents?

frostyjacks

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Wow Frosty... if you could look all that up what is stopping you from looking up the large amounts of research that demonstrates that children raised in same-sex relationships do just as well as those with opposite sex parents?

I see what I wanna see. I know what I wanna know.
I don't need you to tell me what's true.

jobbridge4life

frostyjacks wrote: »

I see what I wanna see. I know what I wanna know.
I don't need you to tell me what's true.

You need someone.

Links234

There really is none so blind as those who won't see.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

It didn't say in the article. If a judge is satisfied with it, that's good enough for me.

Guilford 4 sentencing was by a judge, good enough for you?

Good to know you're ok with miscarriages of justice,

oldrnwisr

frostyjacks wrote: »

I think this is separate to the issue of gay marriage. The judge cited research that proves children are better off being raised by a mother and a father. So even if it was two heterosexual women raising the baby it would have been taken off them. He's putting the child's interests first.

frostyjacks wrote: »

It didn't say in the article. If a judge is satisfied with it, that's good enough for me.

OK, so here's the problem with what you just said.

Firstly, this isn't a litigation case with the State on one side and the parents on the other fighting over the suitability of their parents. In this case the State welfare officials are on the side of the lesbian couple in question and are currently looking for ways to challenge the order (according to various reports). This case was part of a routine verification process for parents looking to foster/adopt. In this case the "research" the judge relied on was not introduced by one side or the other in the case and tried in court. Instead it was introduced by the judge himself as part of some obiter dictum. So the credibility of the research was never tested in this case.

Secondly, you say that a judge's opinion on the research is good enough for you. OK then, well here's a judge in Florida ruling in a similar case:


"The quality and breadth of research available, as well as the results of the studies performed about gay parenting and children of gay parents, is robust and has provided the basis for a consensus in the field. Many well renowned, regarded and respected professionals have [produced] methodologically sound longitudinal and cross-sectional studies into hundreds of reports. Some of the longitudinal studies have tracked children for six, ten and fourteen years. The starting ages of the children in the longitudinal studies has varied from birth, six to ten years old and followed them throughout childhood, adolescence and into adulthood. The studies and reports are published in many well respected peer reviewed journals including the Journal of Child Development, the Journal of Family Psychology, the Journal of Child Psychology, and the Journal of Child Psychiatry. Each of the studies and hundreds of reports also withstood the rigorous peer review process and were tested statistically, rationally and methodologically by seasoned professionals prior to publication. In addition to the volume, the body of research is broad; comparing children raised by lesbian couples to children raised by married heterosexual couples; children raised by lesbian parents from birth to children raised by heterosexual married couples from birth; children raised by single homosexuals to children raised by single heterosexuals;and children adopted by homosexual parents to those raised by homosexual biological parents, to name a few. These reports and studies find that there are no differences in the parenting of homosexuals or the adjustment of their children. These conclusions have been accepted, adopted and ratified by the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatry Association, the American Pediatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Child Welfare League of America and the National Association of Social Workers. As a result, based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, this Court is satisfied that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption."

I think the conclusion of the court is pretty self-explanatory but I have highlighted the relevant portions for you.

Third District Court of Appeal, State of Florida, Docket No. 3D08-3044

So why exactly should the judge in Utah be relied upon and not the judge in Florida (bearing in mind that in the Florida case the research was introduced as evidence and cross-examined, something that didn't happen in Utah)?


The real reason, I suspect, that you feel the judge is credible is because his own personal bigotry and biases align with yours. But if you are going to make fallacious appeals to authority, at least try and ensure that the authority in question is credible and not batsh1t crazy as this one seems to be.

frostyjacks

oldrnwisr wrote: »

The real reason, I suspect, that you feel the judge is credible is because his own personal bigotry and biases align with yours. But if you are going to make fallacious appeals to authority, at least try and ensure that the authority in question is credible and not batsh1t crazy as this one seems to be.

If a judge uses one body of research to conclude children are better off with a mother and father, that's reasonable. If another judge uses another body of research to conclude children are no worse off either way, that's also reasonable. It's not like he just made the ruling on a whim.

oscarBravo

oldrnwisr wrote: »

OK, so here's the problem with what you just said.

[...]

I suspect your eloquence is wasted:

frostyjacks wrote: »

I see what I wanna see. I know what I wanna know.

The Randy Riverbeast

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a judge uses one body of research to conclude children are better off with a mother and father, that's reasonable. If another judge uses another body of research to conclude children are no worse off either way, that's also reasonable. It's not like he just made the ruling on a whim.

Spot the person who knows nothing about research. Do you know what would happen if I used 1 body of research while ignoring the rest? I would be told to get my **** together if I want to be taken seriously.

If 1 piece of research says one thing, 5 say it is wrong. What do you do? And by you I mean most people, not actually you because burning the other 5 papers isn't what most people would do.

I suppose you and the judge knows better than the APA? There there's all the other psychological groups across the world.

frostyjacks

oscarBravo wrote: »

I suspect your eloquence is wasted:

It's from, 'See What I Wanna See', sung by Queen Elsa herself, Idina Menzel.

frostyjacks

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Spot the person who knows nothing about research. Do you know what would happen if I used 1 body of research while ignoring the rest? I would be told to get my **** together if I want to be taken seriously.

If 1 piece of research says one thing, 5 say it is wrong. What do you do? And by you I mean most people, not actually you because burning the other 5 papers isn't what most people would do.

I suppose you and the judge knows better than the APA? There there's all the other psychological groups across the world.

That's why they're called judges, isn't it? They look at what's in front of them, deliberate, and then make a judgment. If they genuinely believe that one piece of research is right and the other five are wrong, then that's their prerogative.

The Randy Riverbeast

frostyjacks wrote: »

That's why they're called judges, isn't it? They look at what's in front of them, deliberate, and then make a judgment. If they genuinely believe that one piece of research is right and the other five are wrong, then that's their prerogative.

By genuinely believe you mean "matches up to their prejudices" right?

What a judge should be doing is looking at the evidence and making a decision, not trying to find evidence based on their prejudices as you do.

Bannasidhe

frostyjacks wrote: »

That's why they're called judges, isn't it? They look at what's in front of them, deliberate, and then make a judgment. If they genuinely believe that one piece of research is right and the other five are wrong, then that's their prerogative.

And their deciding one piece is correct while the other five that contradict that one are incorrect is why there are courts of appeal... and quite often successful appeals...because what they believe is completely immaterial.

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's from, 'See What I Wanna See', sung by Queen Elsa herself, Idina Menzel.

Let it go.

Turtwig

THe snow glows white on the moutain.

Ahem.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

It didn't say in the article. If a judge is satisfied with it, that's good enough for me.

So you're ok with judges decisions?
Great!

Good to know you were ok with this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/20/gay-cake-ruling-equality-northern-ireland

Hotblack Desiato

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's abstinence from premarital sex, rather than total abstinence.

I didn't have premarital sex either, and I'm glad I didn't.

I was much too busy that morning.

oldrnwisr

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a judge uses one body of research to conclude children are better off with a mother and father, that's reasonable. If another judge uses another body of research to conclude children are no worse off either way, that's also reasonable. It's not like he just made the ruling on a whim.

If there was a body of research which supported the idea that a child is better off with a mother and father that would be something. But there isn't. There are a handful of methodologically flawed, politically motivated papers which were pushed through dodgy peer reviews for the sole purpose of giving conservatives a noisemaker to misdirect the public.

frostyjacks wrote: »

If they genuinely believe that one piece of research is right and the other five are wrong, then that's their prerogative.

I'm not sure you've quite grasped the breadth of research that is allied against you. On your side we've got ... diddly. Not a single solid research paper showing any measurable benefit for traditional parenting. On the other side we've got this:

Key papers:

• Biblarz, T., Stacey, J. (2010). How does the gender of parents matter? Journal of Marriage and Family, 72,3-22.
• Bos, H. M. W., Gartrell, N. K., van Balen, F., Peyser, H. and Sandfort, T. G. M. (2008), Children in Planned Lesbian Families: A Cross-Cultural Comparison Between the United States and the Netherlands. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 78: 211–219
• Henny M. W. Bos, Frank van Balen, Children in planned lesbian families: Stigmatisation, psychological adjustment and protective factors, Culture, Health &Sexuality, Vol. 10, Iss. 3, 2008. [ABSTRACT ONLY]
• Gartrell, N. and Bos H., (2010), US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Psychological Adjustment of 17-Year-Old Adolescents , Pediatrics, 126(1), 28-36
• Bos, Henny M. W., Hakvoort, Esther M., (2007), Child adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian families with known and as-yet unknown donors Journal of Psychosomatic Obstetrics & Gynecology, 28, 121-129 [ABSTRACT ONLY]
• Gartrell, N., Bos, H., Goldberg, N., (2010) Adolescents of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Sexual Orientation, Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk Exposure Archives of Sexual Behavior, 40:1199–1209
• Bos H., and Sandfort T.G.M., (2010), Children’s Gender Identity in Lesbian and Heterosexual Two-Parent Families Sex Roles, 62, 114-126
• Farr, R. H., & Patterson, C. J. (2009). Transracial adoption among lesbian, gay, and heterosexual couples: Who completes transracial adoptions and with what results? Adoption Quarterly, 12, 187–204.
• Biblarz, T.J., Savci, Evren (2010) Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Families, Journal of Marriage and Family, 72, 480-497
• Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & Van den Boom, D. C. (2007). Child adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian-parent families. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 77, 38–48.
• Gartrell, N., Deck, A., Rodas, C., Peyser, H., & Banks, A. (2005). The National Lesbian Family Study: 4. Interviews with the 10-year-old children. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 75, 518–524.
• Perrin,E.C. (2002). Technical report: Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics, 109, 341–344.Vanfraussen, K., Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, I., & Brewaeys, A. (2002).What does it mean for youngsters to grow up in a lesbian familycreated by means of donor insemination? Journal of Reproductiveand Infant Psychology, 20, 237–252. [ABSTRACT ONLY]
• Farr, R.H., Forssell, S.L., Patterson, C.J., (2010), Parenting and Child Development in Adoptive Families: Does Parental Sexual Orientation Matter? Applied Developmental Science Vol. 14, Iss. 3.
• Family Structure and Children's Health in the United States: Findings from the National Health Interview Survey, 2001-2007
• Rosenfeld, M.J., (2010), Nontraditional families and childhood progress through school Demography, 47(3), 755-775
• Crouch, S. R., Waters, E., McNair, R., Power, J., & Davis, E. (2012). ACHESS–The Australian study of child health in same-sex families: background research, design and methodology. BMC public health, 12(1), 646.
• Crouch, S. R., Waters, E., McNair, R., Power, J., & Davis, E. The Australian Study of Child Health In Same-Sex Families (ACHESS) - Interim report

This is just a small excerpt of the research papers not to mention meta-analyses, review articles, books, consensus positions and legal decisions. To post a list of all the papers would probably break boards and kill all the hamsters.

Peregrinus

frostyjacks wrote: »

That's why they're called judges, isn't it? They look at what's in front of them, deliberate, and then make a judgment. If they genuinely believe that one piece of research is right and the other five are wrong, then that's their prerogative.

It's not enough that the judge's assessment of the evidence is "genuine"; it has to be reasonable, or else a humiliating reversal by an appeal court lies in wait.

Besides, in this case there's no reason to think that the judge considered the research showing that same-sex parenting is not harmful. The issue was never argued before him, and nobody put any research in evidence. It seems that the judge decided this on the basis of something that he had heard out of court, and on which the litigants had no opportunity to comment. (That alone is something an appeal court will have a few tart words to say about.) There is no way of knowing if the judge was even aware of the other research, much less that he had weighed the various research publications in a balanced way.

recedite

If something similar was happening in Ireland, the birth mother would have the final say.

The couple said they had planned to adopt the infant with her birth mother’s blessing.

quoted from

If the decision is going to come down to one person's opinion on the gheys, it may as well be hers.

Annasopra

Nodin wrote: »

Good jaysus tonight.....





"Utah state child welfare officials on Wednesday were wrangling with a ruling by a juvenile court judge who ordered a baby to be taken from lesbian foster parents and instead placed with a heterosexual couple, saying it was for the child’s wellbeing.
Judge Scott Johansen’s order on Tuesday raised concerns at the Utah Division of Child and Family Services, said agency spokeswoman Ashley Sumner.
Its attorneys plan to review the decision and determine what options they have to challenge the order.

The ruling came during a routine hearing for April Hoagland and Beckie Peirce. They are part of a group of same-sex married couples who were allowed to become foster parents in Utah after a US supreme court ruling made gay marriage legal across the country, Sumner said.
State officials estimate there are a dozen or more foster parents who are married same-sex couples.
Hoagland and Peirce told KUTV they were distraught after the ruling, which called for the baby girl they have been raising for three months to be taken away within a week."
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/12/utah-judge-orders-baby-taken-away-from-lesbian-foster-parents

Thankfully common sense prevailed

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/utah-judges-reverses-order-baby-lesbian-couple-35180689

Delirium

US: Mormons Pushed Too Far – Resign En Masse Over LGBT Discrimination

Hundreds of people lined up at a city park near Salt Lake Temple, on Saturday last, 14 November, to resign from the Mormon Church.

The action was a response to the Church’s most recent ruling that children of same-sex couples in the Mormon faith would not be blessed or baptised until after they had reached their 18th birthday, and after they had rejected their parents’ relationship, and all same-sex relationships.

The church had also ruled that same-sex couples should be excommunicated from the church, as they were breaching church rules by being in a gay relationship, and as such, were apostates.

However, this was a bridge too far for many Mormons, both LGBT and heterosexual, who feel it was a cruel way to treat children of the faith, never mind their parents.

The park at which the rally took place was a short distance from Temple Square, which is outside the Salt Lake Temple. On reaching the square, the crowds then mailed their letters, which had been stamped by a notary public, Linsey Harkness, and thus officially left the Mormon Church.

The new rules came to light when John Dehlin, an excommunicated Mormon, revealed a letter which had been sent to church leaders, stating that children of same-sex couples were not to be baptised until they reached age 18, and only then if they had rejected their gay parents’ relationship, and were no longer living with them.

Bannasidhe

Delirium wrote: »

US: Mormons Pushed Too Far – Resign En Masse Over LGBT Discrimination

68 year old friend of mine was one of those who resigned.

I never quite understood why she was a member but hell... I don't understand why anyone believes in any religion...

Cabaal

Already invited to a wedding allowed under the new law, am overjoyed for the couple

Cabaal

I’d say you’re some craic at parties, Frank.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/11/16/a-sacrament-of-sodomy/

There you go everyone, its a mortal sin for anybody to be ok with marriage equality or to vote for it

Mr. CooL ICE

Never heard of Sappho before. Did she invent the strapon?

Penn

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Never heard of Sappho before. Did she invent the strapon?

"Strapon / Strapoff... The Strapper!"

Oh wait, it's Clap, not Strap, isn't it...