So when will there be a referendum on criminalizing meat eating?

chocksaway

Its basic evolution. If animals didnt wanna be eaten they wouldnt taste so good.

Wibbs

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

Animal proteins got us where we are. Living lives of comfort where there's no need to eat meat, and with the unique (or as good as) ability to assess choices morally.

Sure, as humans we'll damn near eat anything and can eat pretty much anything, but will we thrive without some animal protein? In any event unless you go full vegan, you can get that from eggs, milk and the like, so you don't need to kill anything.

On an individual level there is no need, at all, ever, to eat meat.

According to you.

And whatever, that's fine, it's not for me personally. I just wish people would own it, and not try to cop out of an ethical issue by harping on about evolution and biology.

Own it? Wut? I've hunted and fished and prepared and ate the results. Does that mean according to you I "own it"? Tesco is more convenient mind you(if less tasty).

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Xeyn wrote: »

Your level of morality is not above others. Eating meat is not immoral to most people no matter how you dress it up. Killing animals inhumanely is immoral or killing without the intention of using it as sustenance is immoral in most minds. You 'harping' on using emotive language like 'eating the dead bodies of sentient animals' doesn't make you morally superior to anyone. If an animal is raised well and killed humanely most do not find their being used for food immoral. You may find it unethical but please spare the rest of us your sense that your opinion on the matter is fact.

Calm down, I'm not saying I'm morally superior to anyone.

catallus

chocksaway wrote: »

Its basic evolution. If animals didnt wanna be eaten they wouldnt taste so good.

Makes sense from an evolutionary point of view.

But then everything does, doesn't it?

RedemptionZ

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

No, because it's used as a way of completely disregarding the ethical component it's a cop out. The below paraphrasal of the debate is a cop out

"Eating animals is wrong"

"Yeah but cave men ate them so shut up!"

That's not how it is used. The reason we have evolved the way we have is largely due to the fact we consume meat. If we were to drastically remove all meat from the human diet we don't know what the consequences would or could be. If humans didn't consume meat before we wouldn't be posting on the Internet. Biologically there would be drastic affects if meat was no longer consumed by all humans.

RobertKK

LoTR wrote: »

Vegetarians are people who do not pay for the lifelong brutalization, torture, denial of every single last natural experience for an animal, so that at the end they can see it slaughtered and served "juicily" on their dinner table. Yes, one upon a time humans depended on meat. And other practices from the stone age that any rational person today would find abhorrent. We have since advanced, at least a tiny bit I should hope. Yet comments like yours smash that hope.

Humans and cattle is the most successful partnership in the animal kingdom.
Thanks to humans, there are 1.4 billion cattle in the world.

If we stopped eating meat we would have to cull hundreds and hundreds of millions of cattle so we could use their pasture for food.

Do you want to be responsible for this? :pac:

Wibbs

folamh wrote: »

OP, I believe that a diet which incorporates animal protein is optimal for human thriving. Not certain, but fairly convinced based on empirical research I've read, and also from personal experience. It doesn't follow from this that humans should therefore eat animals. Indeed, it's a fallacious inference. The ethical case for vegetarianism is separate from the health argument. "Bivalvitarianism" seems a good compromise. A vegetarian can meet their B12 and vitamin K2 requirements from eating a couple of oysters a week, and they have "negligible" sentience. Eating a variety of fish/meats will give you nutrient diversity, but getting diversity of nutrients arguably does not justify killing animals. What do you think of bivalvitarianism?

Seems an ism too far to me F. Eggs are a far easier way to get the same kinda nutrients. They're about as whole a food as one can get and nothing is getting killed. Unless there are weirdos out there who reckon an egg is a living thing requiring protection.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Wibbs wrote: »

Sure, as humans we'll damn near eat anything and can eat pretty much anything, but will we thrive without some animal protein? In any event unless you go full vegan, you can get that from eggs, milk and the like, so you don't need to kill anything.

Full disclosure: I'm a lapsed vegan, current vegetarian. It's perfectly possible to "thrive" on a vegan diet for most people, and very easy on a vegetarian diet.

According to you. Own it? Wut? I've hunted and fished and prepared and ate the results. Does that mean according to you I "own it"? Tesco is more convenient mind you(if less tasty).

Not according to me. According to biology. If other food is available, there's no need to eat meat.

By own it I mean admit to "I prefer animals to die than for me not to eat meat". That's a perfectly fine sentence, and perfectly true for people who eat meat, but very few people ever want to say it.

pdunn

This is my very first post so I picked the silliest one that I could find.

folamh

Wibbs wrote: »

Seems an ism too far to me F. Eggs are a far easier way to get the same kinda nutrients. They're about as whole a food as one can get and nothing is getting killed. Unless there are weirdos out there who reckon an egg is a living thing requiring protection.

Hurr hurr who let this hippie in hurr hurr

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

RedemptionZ wrote: »

That's not how it is used. The reason we have evolved the way we have is largely due to the fact we consume meat. If we were to drastically remove all meat from the human diet we don't know what the consequences would or could be. If humans didn't consume meat before we wouldn't be posting on the Internet. Biologically there would be drastic affects if meat was no longer consumed by all humans.

By all yes. I'm looking at this issue on the level of the individual though. I'm 26, never once in my life eaten meat, here I am, typing away. Typing aside you could say the same thing about a lot of people in different types of the world, it's pretty insignificant in evolutionary terms but there are plenty of people who are the end result of people who've eaten no meat or feck all meat.

And with respect, I've had this debate a LOT and that is how the caveman thing is used. Any hint of "meat is wrong, morally and/or ethically", and people go straight to arguments based on evolution or evolutionary psychology instead of morals or ethics

Wibbs

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

Calm down, I'm not saying I'm morally superior to anyone.

Yea you pretty much are. I've yet to meet a vocal veggie who didn't to some degree and vegans were by far the worst for it. The fact you can't see this is interesting.

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

Full disclosure: I'm a lapsed vegan, current vegetarian. It's perfectly possible to "thrive" on a vegan diet for most people, and very easy on a vegetarian diet.

Depends entirely on the individual. I tried the vegetarian(near vegan) diet for the guts of eight months and I was wrecked. My guts went to hell, felt not quite right, but when I reintroduced animal protein I felt better. Took a while, about a month but I felt better. Different people have different gut biomes and that can have an impact on what works or doesn't work for them. Another foodstuff that does me no favours are grains. I have diagnosed coeliacs in my close family which might have a bearing. I test negative for it, but even as a kid a slice of bread made me feel lethargic.

Not according to me. According to biology. If other food is available, there's no need to eat meat.

It is easier to get quite the number of nutrients through eating meat. Veggie protein is not the same.

By own it I mean admit to "I prefer animals to die than for me not to eat meat". That's a perfectly fine sentence, and perfectly true for people who eat meat, but very few people ever want to say it.

I have zero issue with saying it. In order for me to eat meat animals must die(and I have killed them myself) and I continue to eat meat.

Free Hat

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

By all yes. I'm looking at this issue on the level of the individual though. I'm 26, never once in my life eaten meat, here I am, typing away. Typing aside you could say the same thing about a lot of people in different types of the world, it's pretty insignificant in evolutionary terms but there are plenty of people who are the end result of people who've eaten no meat or feck all meat.

And with respect, I've had this debate a LOT and that is how the caveman thing is used. Any hint of "meat is wrong, morally and/or ethically", and people go straight to arguments based on evolution or evolutionary psychology instead of morals or ethics

I grew up on a farm, so would be aware of the process of raising cattle from infancy to the table. I can't speak for every farm but generally they have a healthy, happy life, until they are killed for consumption.

So I am content to eat beef.

I'm probably not so comfortable with chicken, pig and lamb. But they are very tasty.

RedemptionZ

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

By all yes. I'm looking at this issue on the level of the individual though. I'm 26, never once in my life eaten meat, here I am, typing away. Typing aside you could say the same thing about a lot of people in different types of the world, it's pretty insignificant in evolutionary terms but there are plenty of people who are the end result of people who've eaten no meat or feck all meat

And this is where we disagree. You are the product of meat eaters whether you like it or not. Because evolution happens so gradually, we have no way of knowing the long term effects not eating meat on humankind. We wouldn't have the cognitive ability we do now. What makes you think we can retain that ability long term if we stop eating meat?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Wibbs wrote: »

Yea you pretty much are. I've yet to meet a vocal veggie who didn't to some degree and vegans were by far the worst for it. The fact you can't see this is interesting.

Well let me rephrase that, it's not what I'm intending to say, and it's not what I feel. I'm right there with you on the vegans, btw, it was something I very much tried to keep on the QT because I know and loathe the sort of high-horsing, peta-loving tools it's associated with. Honestly outside of the internet this is a debate I never engage in.

Depends entirely on the individual. I tried the vegetarian(near vegan) diet for the guts of eight months and I was wrecked. My guts went to hell, felt not quite right, but when I reintroduced animal protein I felt better. Took a while, about a month but I felt better. Different people have different gut biomes and that can have an impact on what works or doesn't work for them. Another foodstuff that does me no favours are grains. I have diagnosed coeliacs in my close family which might have a bearing. I test negative for it, but even as a kid a slice of bread made me feel lethargic.

Probably for another day, but the amino profile of the plant protein you were getting could have played a part. But you know what you're probably right, there probably are people who'll feel crap without meat; but that number doesn't even touch the amount of people who regularly (several times a day) eat it when not eating it wouldn't have any negative effects for them.

It is easier to get quite the number of nutrients through eating meat. Veggie protein is not the same.

It's easier, but not that much. Ten or more years ago eating out would have been a big issue, not anymore.

I have zero issue with saying it. In order for me to eat meat animals must die(and I have killed them myself) and I continue to eat meat.

Well that's grand then! It seriously is just something that consistently bemuses me, the resistance people have to saying that.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

RedemptionZ wrote: »

And this is where we disagree. You are the product of meat eaters whether you like it or not. Because evolution happens so gradually, we have no way of knowing the long term effects not eating meat on humankind. We wouldn't have the cognitive ability we do now. What makes you think we can retain that ability long term if we stop eating meat?

What makes you think we'd lose it? Meat got us where we are because it's so nutrient dense, it was one cog in the machine that lead to these great big brains. Those great big brains have landed us in a position where having too little nutrient dense, high calorie, easily available food is the exact opposite of the problem we have. With the exception of B12, every nutrient available in meat is available naturally from plant sources. If you incorporate eggs and dairy, there's your B12.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Free Hat wrote: »

I grew up on a farm, so would be aware of the process of raising cattle from infancy to the table. I can't speak for every farm but generally they have a healthy, happy life, until they are killed for consumption.

So I am content to eat beef.

I'm probably not so comfortable with chicken, pig and lamb. But they are very tasty.

As far as I understand, the beef and dairy industries in Ireland are pretty darn good compared to most other places. However, a happy, healthy life isn't enough for me, though I understand why it is for others.

Free Hat

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

What makes you think we'd lose it? Meat got us where we are because it's so nutrient dense, it was one cog in the machine that lead to these great big brains. Those great big brains have landed us in a position where having too little nutrient dense, high calorie, easily available food is the exact opposite of the problem we have. With the exception of B12, every nutrient available in meat is available naturally from plant sources. If you incorporate eggs and dairy, there's your B12.

I think you would have to eat some meat to understand the argument from both perspectives.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Free Hat wrote: »

I think you would have to eat some meat to understand the argument from both perspectives.

No more than you'd have to have never eaten meat to understand it, surely?

Are you talking about how good it tastes?

Saipanne

LoTR wrote: »

My dear Irish friends,

Seeing as you like referendums so much, and like "setting things right," I am just wondering when you will have a Yes/No referendum on whether brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings is something the Irish people will continue to support and strongly engage with, or stand up against?

Will the Irish be the first people in the world to criminalize the brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings (and purchasing such things)....or does the Irish people's definition of mercy not extend to other sentient beings?

When will this referendum be held? And what would you vote for? Will people one day gather with flags in Dublin Castle to celebrate the fall of brutality, depravity, torture, and the horrific killings of other sentient beings? Will one day the Irish people set an example for the world? Or will nothing ever convince you to open up your heart to those that cannot speak for themselves?

"Earthlings" with Joaquin Phoenix is a fantastic documentary about this issue.

Not sure if you are trolling, but I actually think this may happen one day, but not for a century. But, the same way we look back on people 150 years ago and wonder how people could have owned slaves. I think people in 150 years time will look back at us as barbaric for our treatment of animals.

And I say that as a voracious meat eater.

colossus-x

AlphaRed wrote: »

We'll have this referendum after they decriminalize pedophilia

Oh there are again AlphaRed.

BRAG BRAG BRAG GLOAT GLOAT.

YA LOST.

BIG TIME.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Free Hat wrote: »

As I say, I am not explaining it to elegantly but if you were to eat a piece of beef you would understand the sensation.

There are some other nutrients found in meat that cannot be found in plants such as creatine that are important for humans.

Yeah but like…I probably can't understand how good heroin feels, but I'm comfortable making the choice not to take it anyways.

Not saying heroin is comparable with meat for any other purposes than that analogy, before someone jumps on that.

Creatine occurs naturally in the body anyway though, dietary sources aren't generally necessary

RedemptionZ

Saipanne wrote: »

Not sure if you are trolling, but I actually think this may happen one day, but not for a century. But, the same way we look back on people 150 years ago and wonder how people could have owned slaves. I think people in 150 years time will look back at us as barbaric for our treatment of animals.

And I say that as a voracious meat eater.

With the growing population I would've said it's less likely to happen than ever before no? Feeding 7 billion people is one thing, feeding 14 billion with half the space available to grow crops is another. Mechanised production will probably become more common. Obviously don't want that to happen but it's pretty likely I would think.

Saipanne

RedemptionZ wrote: »

With the growing population I would've said it's less likely to happen than ever before no? Feeding 7 billion people is one thing, feeding 14 billion with half the space available to grow crops is another. Mechanised production will probably become more common. Obviously don't want that to happen but it's pretty likely I would think.

This is a complete guess, but per acre, would meat production be less efficient (say, calories produced per acre or something) than crop production? My hunch is that it is less efficient.

MRnotlob606

We have evolved to be Omnivores , that's why we have incisors and canines for the ripping and tearing of meat, and molars and premolars for plants and such.But there's no way in foreseeable future that we can have a referendum on this. Imagine how many farmers, butchers,victuallers would be put out of business.

Also who the fúck wants too eat salad for the rest of their lives ?

Free Hat

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

Yeah but like…I probably can't understand how good heroin feels, but I'm comfortable making the choice not to take it anyways.

Not saying heroin is comparable with meat for any other purposes than that analogy, before someone jumps on that.

Creatine occurs naturally in the body anyway though, dietary sources aren't generally necessary

Sorry half of that post disappeared. I was making the point that it would be difficult to convince people to give up meat, not only because of the taste, also because of the feeling of satisfaction and nourishment that comes with eating meat, a sensation I don't think can be replicated with vegetables.

I guess you could make the same argument for heroin but meat is proven to be of benefit to humans. There are no benefits to not eating it from a health stand point. As opposed to heroin.

I love vegetables. But we are omnivores, our digestive system is designed that way.

RedemptionZ

Saipanne wrote: »

This is a complete guess, but per acre, would meat production be less efficient (say, calories produced per acre or something) than crop production? My hunch is that it is less efficient.

To be honest, I'm not well versed on either crop or meat production so I couldn't say. Crops will still need to be grown as the animals you're eating had to have eaten something to grow too.

eviltwin

Bring it on. I've been a vegetarian for over 20 years but would vote No. I don't think anyone should be told what to do. Live and let live.

folamh

Boston Itchy Drug wrote: »

It's easier, but not that much. Ten or more years ago eating out would have been a big issue, not anymore.

There's a qualitative difference between the equivalent quantity of animal protein and veggie protein, though, and differences in the way the body metabolizes it.

Good guidelines for vegans to get the most out of their diet: http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Free Hat wrote: »

Sorry half of that post disappeared. I was making the point that it would be difficult to convince people to give up meat, not only because of the taste, also because of the feeling of satisfaction and nourishment that comes with eating meat, a sensation I don't think can be replicated with vegetables.

Yeah, I've seen people with that vaguely post-coital meat glow Still not for me.

I guess you could make the same argument for heroin but meat is proven to be of benefit to humans. There are no benefits to not eating it from a health stand point. As opposed to heroin.

There are debatably (like I say I try and avoid this convo so I'm a bit rusty) some health benefits relating to colon cancers and heart disease, though obviously that's a lot to do with what kind and how much meat one eats. My favourite health benefit though is the massively reduced risk of food poisoning!

I love vegetables. But we are omnivores, our digestive system is designed that way.

Our digestive system has adapted to be capable of an omnivorous diet. But it's also more than capable of a vegetarian diet (and not at all able for a carnivorous one).