Ulster Bank League 2015-2016 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

MrJones2013

Stainalert wrote: »

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.

The county thing was just a suggestion and not something I would be in huge favour myself personally as I am a life long fan of the club game. It was just a thought based on the NPC (ITM Cup) in NZ and trying to get fringe players more games without treading on club players told like the scenario I mentioned.

Stainalert wrote: »

Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

Agree with you on this, the AIL should be recognised as a pathway to the provincial sides by both the IRFU and the Provinces and fringe players made play in AIL games more regularly. This is a tricky one though, look at the Galwegians example I was on about earlier and also who plays with which club and what division?

Stainalert wrote: »

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.

Very good idea, I remember playing a 20's game against Buccs a few years back after their seniors played and there was a bit of a buzz around as some of the senior players/supports stayed on, good experience for a 20 year old at the time.

Stainalert wrote: »

And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU

Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

These points are all very true, will we get David Nucifora on the phone

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Possibly something needs to be done is an understatement. I'd much rather fix what is there myself and also I don't think I am the only one who feels it needs significant fixing. I am just throwing out ideas and possible scenarios (which is turning in to an exhausting exercise on this forum ) that could be looked at.

It isn't an understatement. Of course you're not the only person who thinks significant change is needed. But that doesn't mean we need to go to something so radical when smaller changes are needed.

'Meaningful' game time to me is a competitive game played at high intensity with the result having a bearing on a competition that has some significance and value. No one is going to remember who won the 'A' interprovincials in a few years time but people will remember who won the AIL, well rugby people will anyway.

A Interpros have more value for the provinces as the provinces have more control. Of course nobody is going to really remember who wins the A intepros but its not as if there is many who know who wins AIL anyway or would even if there was significant changes made to it.

'A' games can be like training matches as the intensity levels aren't the same as they would be in a competitive league. Also there is generally wholesale changes when 'A' fixtures are played, not every player plays 10-12 games a season for the 'A' side.

So you alter what the A teams play. The A teams and A games have advantages club games will never have and never can have. And that has to be kept.

Stainalert wrote: »

Have to say I agree with Lost Sheep (This doesn't happen too often!) I don't see the need for county teams. Would be a costly way of replicating the AIL and to me would not lift standards or interest.
For me the solution is pretty simple scrap B&I, keep A Interpros, and place a much greater emphasis on a more concentrated AIL - 10 team format is fine but 5 divisions is too many and unnecessary. Provincial coaches should be compelled to support the AIL by IRFU. Regular TV slot would be really good. Independent Website with more video clips, more live match streaming (with a bit more production) & statistics (I know some of this is already on irishrugby.ie but could be far more comprehensive).

Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

20's games prior to AIL is a great idea and if number of referees is the problem we just go out and get more referees.
Set up a league Mgmt made up of member clubs and IRFU whose responsibility is to govern and promote the league - forget about the "IRFU club committee" or whatever it is called.
And yes clubs need to market themselves and games better - that is a given but it is hard when there is so little effort from the IRFU
Change some of the rules - 7 subs not 5 is a no brainer. Promote a more attacking open game by reffing the game in a way that promotes expansive rugby eg actually enforce things like offside and crooked put ins - If the ref can't manage it empower the touch judges to do so.

All very implementable and at no great cost and remember there will be a saving if the B&I is scrapped.

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?
Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game. IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members. Who from the clubs do you want on this committee? What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with marketing?
5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...
Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

The county thing was just a suggestion and not something I would be in huge favour myself personally as I am a life long fan of the club game. It was just a thought based on the NPC (ITM Cup) in NZ and trying to get fringe players more games without treading on club players told like the scenario I mentioned.

NZ rugby is the national sport and we don't have that. Fringe players play AIL and you simply do that and work more on that. Im a life long fan of the club game. I go to more club games than most here and in general. We don't have the support levels to support an NPC level competition. I don't see provincial players dropping down treading on AIL players. Its the way at all levels. It happens when Senior players come back from injury and players on the 2nds have to drop down to bench or 3rds.....

Agree with you on this, the AIL should be recognised as a pathway to the provincial sides by both the IRFU and the Provinces and fringe players made play in AIL games more regularly. This is a tricky one though, look at the Galwegians example I was on about earlier and also who plays with which club and what division?

The AIL is recognised as a pathway to the pro game and you cant say that it isn't. Most will come through the academies and not directly through just the clubs but fringe players do play AIL quite a lot..

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't an understatement.

It's an understatement, the AIL is at an all time low. Something significant does need to be done by the IRFU and the clubs to inject life back in to the AIL.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So you alter what the A teams play. The A teams and A games have advantages club games will never have and never can have.

I understand what you mean by this, A teams will use the same patterns of play, set piece calls, etc as the senior provincial sides. Should they be trying to get more A games so? Keep your beloved B&I and also try a Pro 12 'A' league like I suggested and keep contracted professional players more or less totally seperate from the amateur game? Maybe just allow academy players play AIL?

Teams travel to play Pro 12 games anyway, it would be an added expense to bring extra players but there would be benefits from an 'A' league. If Munster are playing Cardiff on Friday, they could play an 'A' game the night before in Cardiff or even earlier on the Friday......again just a suggestion.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Why do you disagree with this? The 20's is also an AIL competition. 20's games are generally played on Saturdays already, J1 games are generally on Sundays and have been for as long as I remember (In Munster anyway). J2 games won't be as appealling to the supporters, they'd rather see up and coming talent in the form of 20's rather than what is generally recognised as a social side.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It happens when Senior players come back from injury and players on the 2nds have to drop down to bench or 3rds.....

As I said before rugby players have egos. Here in Limerick a lot of the clubs 3rd XV are almost independant of the club themselves. Players who consider themselves 'Senior' players will drop down to 2nds as they are still in the shop window for the senior side but very few (some do I know) will drop down to a 3rd XV.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

It's an understatement, the AIL is at an all time low. Something significant does need to be done by the IRFU and the clubs to inject life back in to the AIL.

The clubs could do more to get people to go to games. Work better on facilities and providing entertainment beyond simply the rugby to get more in the gate. AIL far from an all time low. You are placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU when its the clubs that make up the league. Its the clubs that need to do most of the marketing to get people in the gate

I understand what you mean by this, A teams will use the same patterns of play, set piece calls, etc as the senior provincial sides. Should they be trying to get more A games so? Keep your beloved B&I and also try a Pro 12 'A' league like I suggested and keep contracted professional players more or less totally seperate from the amateur game? Maybe just allow academy players play AIL?

Yes more A games and games for contracted players. Academy players are playing AIL quite a lot...

Why do you disagree with this? The 20's is also an AIL competition. 20's games are generally played on Saturdays already, J1 games are generally on Sundays and have been for as long as I remember (In Munster anyway). J2 games won't be as appealling to the supporters, they'd rather see up and coming talent in the form of 20's rather than what is generally recognised as a social side.

j1 is not a social side. J1s at least shouldn't be. In many areas clubs have 2/3/4 sides below their AIL side so 2nds are not social and are directly linked to the senior side. 2nds players are working not like 20s and many find it hard to have social life considering wont go out before a game and cant after with work on a Monday.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The clubs could do more to get people to go to games. Work better on facilities and providing entertainment beyond simply the rugby to get more in the gate. AIL far from an all time low. You are placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU when its the clubs that make up the league.

Better facilities cost money, money is generated by gates, gates come from matches. They are rugby clubs so that is always going to be the primary source of entertainment/revenue.

I've been following the the AIL since it's inception it's pretty rock bottom at the moment. I'm not saying the standard is at an all time low, I am saying the level of interest is at an all time low.

I'm not placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU, I agree clubs could be doing more but a lot of parents will bring their kids to training or under age matches on a Saturday/Sunday morning and then bring them to a pro game in the evening rather than attending their own senior sides AIL games with them.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

j1 is not a social side. J1s at least shouldn't be. In many areas clubs have 2/3/4 sides below their AIL side so 2nds are not social and are directly linked to the senior side. 2nds players are working not like 20s and many find it hard to have social life considering wont go out before a game and cant after with work on a Monday.

I never said J1 is a social side, I said that a J2 fixture before a Senior AIL game will not generate the same level of interest as a 20's game, it's a lot lower standard and more of a social side than a 20's side and as I also said 20's is an AIL competition also so it makes more sense that a 20's fixture is played before a senior game. If a club don't have a 20's side or if the 20's side are playing away then definitely a J2 game could be a curtain raiser. All depends on pitch quality/facilities though!

J1 games, in Munster anyway, have been played on Sundays for as long as I can remember, this won't change, junior clubs probably won't go for it and it suits senior sides also as subs/squad players that don't get a run for the senior side on Saturday are available on Sunday. Maybe they might move to Monday evening fixtures as is the case with some J1 games in Munster at the moment but it won't be moved to before a Senior game on a Saturday.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Why do you disagree with this?

You still haven't clarified why you disagree with this? (Just wondering your reasons for disagreeing that a 20s game before an AIL game makes less sense than a J1/J2 game when it's also an AIL competition)

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Better facilities cost money, money is generated by gates, gates come from matches. They are rugby clubs so that is always going to be the primary source of entertainment/revenue.
I've been following the the AIL since it's inception it's pretty rock bottom at the moment. I'm not saying the standard is at an all time low, I am saying the level of interest is at an all time low.
I'm not placing all/most of the blame on the IRFU, I agree clubs could be doing more but a lot of parents will bring their kids to training or under age matches on a Saturday/Sunday morning and then bring them to a pro game in the evening rather than attending their own senior sides AIL games with them.

Better facilities does cost money but to get more in the gate you have to improve your facilities. If you have better facilities you can attract more people to games and keep them at games.

I never said J1 is a social side, I said that a J2 fixture before a Senior AIL game will not generate the same level of interest as a 20's game, it's a lot lower standard and more of a social side than a 20's side and as I also said 20's is an AIL competition also so it makes more sense that a 20's fixture is played before a senior game. If a club don't have a 20's side or if the 20's side are playing away then definitely a J2 game could be a curtain raiser. All depends on pitch quality/facilities though!

A J1 game will attract as much interest as 20s before an AIL game and it doesn't exactly make more sense to play 20s simply because its part of an all Ireland competition.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

You still haven't clarified why you disagree with this? (Just wondering your reasons for disagreeing that a 20s game before an AIL game makes less sense than a J1/J2 game when it's also an AIL competition)

20s being an all ireland tournament doesn't mean it should be played with AIL senior league. The j1 competition makes sense as it gives those playing j1 rugby a chance to have sundays off and considering their will be much more players who work/have jobs etc playing j1 it gives them the chance to be able to go out on a Saturday night. J1 will train directly with the senior team as well so it ties in there. In many clubs the 20s will train separately to seniors and 20s is fine on a sunday in Leinster.

Stainalert

Reply to Lost Sheep


Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

Hopefully you are wrong about the B&I.

Nucifora is the man to ensure provincial coaches support the AIL.
Schools games get shown on Setanta. If not possible set up an independent website to provide live streams and highlights - clubs send in their videos for editing etc. IRFU already use a video production company for the clips they do show.

Stats are already there just need to be compiled and interpreted. Not talking about huge level of detail to begin with - things like top points scorer, top try scorer etc. in an easily accessible format


I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Think a national 20s dimension would be exciting, no reason why 2nds can't be fitted in as well

Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game.

More energy required by IRFU and all involved - lots of incentive for young ambitious refereees

IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members.

Ah not really - guys on this committee have more loyalty to the IRFU than their clubs.

Who from the clubs do you want on this committee?

Directors / chairmen of rugby - guys that get things done

What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with marketing?

More effort & more consistency. Some of their coverage is excellent but it is too sporadic eg what has happened the player of the month awards? Match reports hit or miss from week to week - just not consistent enough

5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...

It is an issue and is not up to speed with changes in laws of the games - 7 subs will give more young players game time, help develop younger props and reduce the need for uncontested scrums

Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

Why isn't it possible? Make it possible. Make them assistant referees. Surely it would help their development. Main ref has enough on his plate.

brokenhooker

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

MrJones2013

brokenhooker wrote: »

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.

Tarf1234

Well said stainalert. 20s makes most sense but no need to exclude J1/2.

National 20s wouldn't work. Just look at the current 20s set ups. Can't even agree on an age. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen this year.

Is it just me or do TJs not already have those powers? They just rarely get involved.

Couldn't agree more on the point in relation to getting actual club people running the club game. IRFU guys who are involved are clubmen in name only.

Would love to see a basic stats list at the very least

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert could you not have used multi quote button as its easier to navigate points.....

Stainalert wrote: »

Reply to Lost Sheep

Scrapping the British and Irish Cup shouldn't happen and wont happen. 5 divisions isn't really too much and it affects the junior leagues. What do you do to compel provincial coaches to support the AIL.
Where are you going to get regular TV coverage? Who will provide all this video clips and statistics? What statistics do you want and who will compile them?

Hopefully you are wrong about the B&I.

Nucifora is the man to ensure provincial coaches support the AIL.
Schools games get shown on Setanta. If not possible set up an independent website to provide live streams and highlights - clubs send in their videos for editing etc. IRFU already use a video production company for the clips they do show.

Stats are already there just need to be compiled and interpreted. Not talking about huge level of detail to begin with - things like top points scorer, top try scorer etc. in an easily accessible format

What are on about me being wrong about B&I?
Schools games get shown as theres demand for the schools games. Is that there for club games when club games are on weekends and there is multiple other live sport on television as competition.
Who would run this independent website?
Who would fund these live streams and highlights. Where do you see clubs going to send in these videos. The games that are shown already are IRFU videos. Who's going to expand this.
What stats are taking. Why don't you start taking the stats yourself and then show the IRFU that this is something someone should do as theres an interest in this kind of stuff.
Im compiling stats on try scorers, points scorers for my own club since they joined the AIL and will expand it to yellow cards, red cards amongst other things when I get the time

I disagree with 20s before AIL. Why not the J1s/2s?

Think a national 20s dimension would be exciting, no reason why 2nds can't be fitted in as well

A national dimension isn't needed for 20s. It already exists in terms of the playoffs. 20s is already overly dominated by Trinity, UCD, Lansdowne and then 1/2 others varying on the year in Leinster while in Munster Shannon, Garryowen, Con and then maybe Munsters, Bohs, UCC every so often. A national league at 20s isn't needed.
Tying j1s to the senior team is the way to go as the j1s are directly linked to the seniors. They train together. The interaction between players will be closer as players drop between each team etc.

Whats your magic solution to get more referees? I ref and ive asked plenty to do it but most people will run a mile and never want to try referee a game.

More energy required by IRFU and all involved - lots of incentive for young ambitious refereees

What do you mean by "more energy required by IRFU"? What are all these incentives you want to put in place? What kind of incentives? Who would provide these incentives?

IRFU club committee or whatever its called is made up of member clubs and club members.

Ah not really - guys on this committee have more loyalty to the IRFU than their clubs.

This fear of the establishment is ridiculous... The guys on this committee care and have loyalty to clubs. They wouldn't be there otherwise.

Who from the clubs do you want on this committee?

Directors/chairmen of rugby - guys that get things done

And why does that make them better simply because they are directly linked to their club. They will be selfish and think primarily of whats best for them and clubs similar to them. Potential for growth is limited.

What exactly do you want the IRFU to change with
marketing?

More effort & more consistency. Some of their coverage is excellent but it is too sporadic eg what has happened the player of the month awards? Match reports hit or miss from week to week - just not consistent enough

How do you propose for their to be more effort/more consistency? Clubs have to lead the marketing as its in the locality that clubs need the marketing to get people into games. The medium is the message and the clubs have to be cleverer. Where are the innovative marketing strategies? This has to be club led and club driven as the clubs want and need more people attending games and paying on the gate more than the IRFU do. If IRFU are not/cant provide match reports then why are clubs not providing them on a wider/national scale instead of simply providing one for their own website/local newspaper etc

5 subs isn't really that much of an issue. Its to help the lower levels...

It is an issue and is not up to speed with changes in
laws of the games - 7 subs will give more young players game time, help develop younger props and reduce the need for uncontested scrums

5 subs helps down the levels as there is more players available for more teams which helps provide more rugby for all. Players as you have said before don't want to be out on both a Saturday and Sunday. This helps that. Maybe its because my own club always has enough front row cover. Between starters and 5 subs we could easily have 6/7 guys capable of playing front row. But 5 subs is still not that much of an issue. Possibly increase it to 6 but not 7. Help the lower levels and keep more players for those levels.

Its just not possible to give touch judges more powers at AIL level. They are touch judges at AIL level not assistant referees.

Why isn't it possible? Make it possible. Make them assistant referees. Surely it would help their development. Main ref has enough on his plate.

Its not going to happen. Those running the line in the AIL can only adjudicate on Touch, Kicks at goal and foul play. They can talk to the referee at down time during the game and at half time to indicate trends in the game like consistent offside etc but they will not be given more powers than that

The Lost Sheep

brokenhooker wrote: »

National 20's would be a joke, Leinster teams would dominate.

Its not going to happen for multiple reasons. Cost, difference in standards etc etc

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.

Would Leinster u20s change to play Saturdays? Would this league be more competitive than the existing provincial leagues?
Munster u20 sides dominated the Frazer McMullen in the 00s with UCC and UL Bohs winning 2/3 titles each but Dublin clubs have dominated since. I don't see a national league being more competitive and costs go up and is that needed?
What would this change mean for the divisions below the top flight? How would you structure this league?

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Well said stainalert. 20s makes most sense but no need to exclude J1/2.

National 20s wouldn't work. Just look at the current 20s set ups. Can't even agree on an age. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen this year.

Why would 20s make more sense than j1s? National 20s wont work. Munster are not going to change from 20s to 21s. Leinster will keep 20.5s

Is it just me or do TJs not already have those powers? They just rarely get involved.

TJs at amateur level are very different to pro and have significant less powers and that wont change.

Couldn't agree more on the point in relation to getting actual club people running the club game. IRFU guys who are involved are clubmen in name only.

To say IRFU members are clubmen in name only is nonsense. They are clubmen and directly involved in clubs still inspite of being involved in IRFU...

Would love to see a basic stats list at the very least

What are these basic stats you want? if you(and Stainalert etc) want these stats so much why not do it yourself and compile them yourself.

Stainalert

You say the B&I isn't going away - I hope it does

If you build it they will come - I believe there is an audience out there. Website wouldn't actually cost a lot - IRFU already putting resources into the stuff - with a couple of additional sponsors costs easily covered

Clubs send videos into central source - a lot of the videos the IRFU already show are club videos anyhow that have just been edited. Every club does stats - I do it for my club and have tried to expand it for other clubs - will post up here when it is more up to date

Scrap national 20's so - go with J1's or local 20's. 20's just works better in matching teams

There are plenty of incentives out there for young refs - travel , move into pro game etc

My fear of establishment comes from experience of dealing with these committees and has only been reaffirmed after recent meetings with these committees. These chairmen and directors of rugby get things done. A working group between the IRFU and these reps should ensure that selfish interests are parked to one side - let the clubs vote them in if you are worried about that.

More effort/more consistency? Self evident from the comments I made - My clubs sends a match report to the IRFU every week - some times they use it other times they go with their own report , other times they don't show a report.

5 subs - outdated

Don't see why touch judges can't work - IRFU has power to envoke it's own rules in this competition. IRFU have supplied touch judges and refs with mics in the past

MrJones2013

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of the existing 20's competition structure but games being played as a curtain raiser to senior games where possible, it is probably up to the individual clubs to push this though.

The 20's competition is a national competition after the conference stages. Leinster teams are dominating this as it is with 4 out the last 5 winners being Leinster clubs as well as dominating the quarter-final stages already.

Would a national 20's league (in place of the existing conferences) as suggested be more competitive? I'd imagine it would end up being dominated by the Leinster teams also as well as giving the so called 'bigger' clubs more pull when it comes to recruiting players at 20's level.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Would Leinster u20s change to play Saturdays? Would this league be more competitive than the existing provincial leagues?
Munster u20 sides dominated the Frazer McMullen in the 00s with UCC and UL Bohs winning 2/3 titles each but Dublin clubs have dominated since. I don't see a national league being more competitive and costs go up and is that needed?
What would this change mean for the divisions below the top flight? How would you structure this league?

Read what I have highlighted in bold on my OP and what I have highlighted in bold on your latest post, are these points more or less identical?

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert could you please use multiquote to make this easier.....

Stainalert wrote: »

You say the B&I isn't going away - I hope it does

But it wont. You may not like it but A games and B&I cup are a necessary layer of the professional game.

If you build it they will come - I believe there is an audience out there. Website wouldn't actually cost a lot - IRFU already putting resources into the stuff - with a couple of additional sponsors costs easily covered

There is areas for growth but who is going to cover this? Where are these additional sponsors going to come from?

Clubs send videos into central source - a lot of the videos the IRFU already show are club videos anyhow that have just been edited. Every club does stats - I do it for my club and have tried to expand it for other clubs - will post up here when it is more up to date

Who will get clubs to send in these tapes? When you say stats what are you referring to? What specifically?

Scrap national 20's so - go with J1's or local 20's. 20's just works better in matching teams

There are plenty of incentives out there for young refs - travel, move into pro game etc

J1s works considerably better than 20s. 20s is played on Saturdays in Munster and previously in Connacht before they jumped across this season and it didn't get this increase in support and a j1 game played before/after an AIL game would garner significant more interest than 20s.

My fear of establishment comes from experience of dealing with these committees and has only been reaffirmed after recent meetings with these committees. These chairmen and directors of rugby get things done. A working group between the IRFU and these reps should ensure that selfish interests are parked to one side - let the clubs vote them in if you are worried about that.

Just because these chairmen and directors of rugby get things done in their own clubs doesn't mean that they are capable of directing change or implementing change on a national scale.
Ive dealt with the political nature of committees in one form or another before and just adding an additional layer of bureaucracy doesn't and wont lead to the changes you want.

5 subs - outdated

How is this outdated? Adult playing numbers are down. Number of teams clubs are fielding is down. This helps counteract the drop.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Stainalert could you please use multiquote to make this easier.....
But it wont. You may not like it but A games and B&I cup are a necessary layer of the professional game.

I'm an optimist !

There is areas for growth but who is going to cover this? Where are these additional sponsors going to come from?

The working group set up by the IRFU and clubs

Who will get clubs to send in these tapes? When you say stats what are you referring to? What specifically?

This is the clubs chance to get more publicity and show more value to their sponsors - I think they would be agreeable. As I said Top scorers , top try scorers - nothing too difficult


Just because these chairmen and directors of rugby get things done in their own clubs doesn't mean that they are capable of directing change or implementing change on a national scale.
Ive dealt with the political nature of committees in one form or another before and just adding an additional layer of bureaucracy doesn't and wont lead to the changes you want.

If they are properly mandated they will - They would do a lot of the work that the current committee are ill equipped to deal with

How is this outdated? Adult playing numbers are down. Number of teams clubs are fielding is down. This helps counteract the drop.

Rules around front-row replacements etc , concussion etc have all changed - This is a basic safety requirement if nothing else

PS No idea how to use Multi Quote

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

Rules around front-row replacements etc , concussion etc have all changed - This is a basic safety requirement if nothing else

PS No idea how to use Multi Quote[/QUOTE]Click on the speech bubble button when you reply to a post. Because the way you originally posted reply to me previous post hasn't came up when I quoted you
The league isn't so big that more sponsors will come on board. Ulster Bank are title sponsors. I don't see anyone coming in unless you change the sponsorship model and a title sponsor is better for the league...

By properly mandated what do you assume they can do that others haven't?

If you are so interested in getting top try scorers listed etc. Why not do it yourself? If no one from IRFU/Clubs are willing to do it why not do it yourself and create a facebook page/twitter account that would then highlight these players and the leaders in the categories?

Tarf1234

I see no example or rationale behind J1s working better then 20s. I know in Leinster anyway that 20s is significantly better supported. 20s would also bring in the parents and friends of the players which J1s would not necessarily do. When I raised this point originally I did not mean that it had to happen at every game. My first example was of Belvo and Tarf playing 20s prior to an AIL game. I genuinely believe this would get plenty of people down to watch. I understand that it might not be practical or sensible in all fixtures.

Why in the name of God should a random person from one club have to collate all of the stats? The argument of why don't you do it yourself is incredibly petty. Is it really that big of an issue for the person who would be putting up all of the results etc. to keep a tracker and publish it also? The IRFU are our union and are supposed to support and promote our game. I cannot for the life of me see why you are defending them so adamantly.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I see no example or rationale behind J1s working better then 20s. I know in Leinster anyway that 20s is significantly better supported. 20s would also bring in the parents and friends of the players which J1s would not necessarily do. When I raised this point originally I did not mean that it had to happen at every game. My first example was of Belvo and Tarf playing 20s prior to an AIL game. I genuinely believe this would get plenty of people down to watch. I understand that it might not be practical or sensible in all fixtures.

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.

Why in the name of God should a random person from one club have to collate all of the stats? The argument of why don't you do it yourself is incredibly petty. Is it really that big of an issue for the person who would be putting up all of the results etc. to keep a tracker and publish it also? The IRFU are our union and are supposed to support and promote our game. I cannot for the life of me see why you are defending them so adamantly.

So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.
So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

Your argument doesn't mean it would get more people in the gate and that is the point at hand. I 100% agree with that point in terms of Sunday rugby being brutal for those of us in employment, that is a different days question. I don't see people playing 2 games in 1 day though and I think it would almost certainly stop players on the bench playing J1s. However, in saying that I would not have any massive reservations about J1s being played on Saturday as it would be the same for both sides. It is already done in the league rounds of the Leinster Senior cup to varying levels of success.

There is obviously someone putting up the scorers as they go onto the website in the match reports. I'm not sure who the exact employee is. Basic stats is all I'm looking for.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Your argument doesn't mean it would get more people in the gate and that is the point at hand. I 100% agree with that point in terms of Sunday rugby being brutal for those of us in employment, that is a different days question. I don't see people playing 2 games in 1 day though and I think it would almost certainly stop players on the bench playing J1s. However, in saying that I would not have any massive reservations about J1s being played on Saturday as it would be the same for both sides. It is already done in the league rounds of the Leinster Senior cup to varying levels of success.

There is obviously someone putting up the scorers as they go onto the website in the match reports. I'm not sure who the exact employee is. Basic stats is all I'm looking for.

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You see lots of argument from adult rugby players that they dislike Sunday rugby as it means they struggle to have a social life. Move junior rugby(j1) to Saturday and tie it in with the mens senior side. They already train together so why not have them play together. 20s can play on Sunday and it doesn't impact them as much.
J1s would suit much more than 20s as they are the 2nd team of the club and many will be part of the senior squad and are training every week with the senior team.
So who is to do it? What staff members from the IRFU do you expect to do this and to travel to all these games to provide these stats? It wouldn't be a random person. A club appoints them to this role to do it. The IRFU are our union but that doesn't mean they have to do all this work that can be and should be done by the member clubs of the union.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

I think Tarf1234 is saying the work on stats is already getting done by the IRFU and if someone just added an extra stats page to the website (using the existing data the IRFU have already) it would be very helpful and useful

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That websites are updating stats and that doesn't mean all this extra can be done. If it isn't being done why not do it yourself or find someone who is of a similar belief as you to do it. Because something isn't being done doesn't mean that the IRFU have to fix it when the work can be done by the clubs and the resources they have.
J1s would get more in the gate from my involvement in playing both j1 and 20s in Munster and family whove played both in Leinster. It isn't a different question at all about Sunday Rugby being brutal for those who work. Its directly linked to what has been discussed here.

Stainalert has answered the first point for me.


This is most certainly not the case in Leinster. We are talking about getting people in the gate. If it is different in Leinster and Munster then different approaches could be taken and I would have no objection to that. I would have thought 20s would be more likely to attract people who are not regular AIL attendees as well as they (and their family and friends) are more likely to be new to the club and club game.

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

MrJones2013

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

20s play on Saturday and J1s play on Sunday down here in Munster at the moment. I think this suits senior clubs as alot of 20s play J1 also. I know a lot of senior clubs J1 sides are made up of a mixture of 20s players, fringe senior players and the odd J2 player so Sunday fixtures tend to suit senior clubs more (as far as I know anyway).

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

I think Tarf1234 is saying the work on stats is already getting done by the IRFU and if someone just added an extra stats page to the website (using the existing data the IRFU have already) it would be very helpful and useful

IRFU clearly don't see any demand for it so why not do it yourself or find someone to do it if IRFU clearly are not doing it.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

This is most certainly not the case in Leinster. We are talking about getting people in the gate. If it is different in Leinster and Munster then different approaches could be taken and I would have no objection to that. I would have thought 20s would be more likely to attract people who are not regular AIL attendees as well as they (and their family and friends) are more likely to be new to the club and club game.

Of course Sunday is the last option but from my experience of playing 20s with city club and also playing seconds it is 2nds that will attract more to games. And 20s certainly wont attract more families etc to club game

I think anyone who suffers Sunday rugby will agree that it should be the last option in terms of days to play. Unfortunately with facilities and ref availability it's going to happen to someone. In Leinster J1 and 20s both play on Sundays currently.

So moving 20s isn't going to happen as social rugby will be played on Saturday as is most age grade club and schools rugby so if you move 20s or j1(metro) to Saturday you have issues with referees as there already is a huge amount of games on Saturdays between AIL, leinster junior leagues divisions 1A/B, 2A/B etc and then age grade.

MrJones2013 wrote: »

20s play on Saturday and J1s play on Sunday down here in Munster at the moment. I think this suits senior clubs as alot of 20s play J1 also. I know a lot of senior clubs J1 sides are made up of a mixture of 20s players, fringe senior players and the odd J2 player so Sunday fixtures tend to suit senior clubs more (as far as I know anyway).

j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU clearly don't see any demand for it so why not do it yourself or find someone to do it if IRFU clearly are not doing it.

Of course Sunday is the last option but from my experience of playing 20s with city club and also playing seconds it is 2nds that will attract more to games. And 20s certainly wont attract more families etc to club game
So moving 20s isn't going to happen as social rugby will be played on Saturday as is most age grade club and schools rugby so if you move 20s or j1(metro) to Saturday you have issues with referees as there already is a huge amount of games on Saturdays between AIL, leinster junior leagues divisions 1A/B, 2A/B etc and then age grade.
j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

There are far more new people at 20s games year in year out. The logic behind which is clear and obvious and I have given the rationale behind that. I see no rationale you have provided why you believe more new people would go to a J1 game. In Leinster that is just pure and simple not the case as much as you may repeat it.

One of the TJ's can referee the 20s games. We often have a TJ from a Firsts game on a Saturday refing our 20s the next day. I can think of 4 times it has happen us this season alone.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

j1 has moved to Monday nights on odd occasions in Munster but is Sundays in Munster and that wont change.

It won't move to Saturdays in Munster for the reasons I highlighted (Senior J1 sides being made up of 20s players and fringe/sub senior players). Monday night rugby is becoming more frequent and may end up utilised more in the Senior Seconds leagues.

I can't see the junior leagues moving from Sunday to Saturday though.

The Lost Sheep

Tarf1234 wrote: »

There are far more new people at 20s games year in year out. The logic behind which is clear and obvious and I have given the rationale behind that. I see no rationale you have provided why you believe more new people would go to a J1 game. In Leinster that is just pure and simple not the case as much as you may repeat it.

Not from my experience and of my brother who has been playing 20s and j1 the past 2/3 seasons in Leinster leagues.
J1 ties in with the senior team directly much more than 20s. J1s playing Saturdays is much better than 20s. I speak from experience of playing 20s Saturdays and J1 Sundays and family whove been playing 20s Sundays...
Tying in 2nds with 1sts is much better than 20s.

One of the TJ's can referee the 20s games. We often have a TJ from a Firsts game on a Saturday refing our 20s the next day. I can think of 4 times it has happen us this season alone.

That's 2 games on different days. Changing it to 2 on 1 day. Most wont really agree to that.

Tarf1234

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not from my experience and of my brother who has been playing 20s and j1 the past 2/3 seasons in Leinster leagues.
J1 ties in with the senior team directly much more than 20s. J1s playing Saturdays is much better than 20s. I speak from experience of playing 20s Saturdays and J1 Sundays and family whove been playing 20s Sundays...
Tying in 2nds with 1sts is much better than 20s.
That's 2 games on different days. Changing it to 2 on 1 day. Most wont really agree to that.

I don't know what club he is at nor do I need to but that must be a very unique club in terms of Leinster rugby. Having been around both levels for the last 10 years and being at all of the seniors clubs on a regular basis when both levels are playing I just cannot accept that is the norm.

I don't really see the relevance of J1 team training with the seniors has. People are going to watch 2 separate games. We are talking about getting people in the door not making J1s a nicer level to play or having the 2 teams that train together playing.

On the TJ thing - was just an idea. I'll stop coming up with ideas and just shoot everything down instead, it appears much easier.