Match thread: Ulster v Munster, Ravenhill 09/05/15 14:40

Buer

Swiwi. wrote: »

I really don't think you can argue that red.

Whether he led with the head of not is beside the point. It was reckless to the point of hurting another player.

Red card. He won't be able to protest it and will be gone for the rest of the season. Knowing how the Pro12 operate, he might get anything up to 6 weeks.

DDC1990

awec wrote: »

Nonsense.

You'd swear it was a diving headbutt the way you're trying to paint it.

Look he dived off his feet head first and made contact with the head of another player.

I cannot see how its not at least a yellow in this day and age. Its not a good clear out. He was in no control of his body, because of the way he flew in. There's abrasive and then there is reckless. Forget about where his arms are, if you dive in like that, it is very likely that you will injure someone.

This was reckless, and he had to walk. I personally think Red is a bit harsh, but can understand it with all the clamor about protecting heads, concussions etc.

Mahatma Geansai

awec wrote: »

To who, you?

Nonsense.

And Nigel and the TMO. It was reckless and dangerous, but not intentional. He dove/slipped and it looks like he ended up headbutting Murray in the face.

Rather than making excuses, Ulster need to have a serious look at their discipline. Three red cards and four citings in the league so far this season. That's a huge problem.

Brewster

Lyaiera wrote: »

I specifically said it was not malicious, merely reckless. The video clearly shows Henderson accelerating his head (and his whole body) and he drove into Murray's face with the top of his skull. I don't even think he did it intentionally, he was just unaware. None the less, his action is a red card offense.

He had fully committed to the clearout leading with his arm! Do you expect him to be able to put the breaks on all of a sudden?

aimee1

Lyaiera wrote: »

I specifically said it was not malicious, merely reckless. The video clearly shows Henderson accelerating his head (and his whole body) and he drove into Murray's face with the top of his skull. I don't even think he did it intentionally, he was just unaware. None the less, his action is a red card offense.

Henderson went to clear Murray out [pointless as the ball was already on ulsters side]. There was contact but IMO it was very much unintentional. Henderson accelerated because he was trying to clear a player out of a ruck, not because he was trying to commit an act of foul play.

Lyaiera

Brewster wrote: »

He had fully committed to the clearout leading with his arm! Do you expect him to be able to put the breaks on all of a sudden?

He has a responsibility not to hit someone with his head. Especially another player's face.

awec

Lyaiera wrote: »

It wasn't O'Mahony he hit not Murray. Everyone's looking at Henderson! :P

No difference. You reckon anyone in the circumstances you describe is able to get up and run around?

Rightwing

No sympathy for the chap, suspension on the way and rightly so.

Lyaiera

awec wrote: »

No difference. You reckon anyone in the circumstances you describe is able to get up and run around?

So you're saying players should only be penalised if they break the laws and injure another player?

aimee1

Lyaiera wrote: »

He has a responsibility not to hit someone with his head. Especially another player's face.

so why was POC not cited when he kicked DK in the head rendering him unconscious?

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

Whether he led with the head of not is beside the point. It was reckless to the point of hurting another player.

Red card. He won't be able to protest it and will be gone for the rest of the season. Knowing how the Pro12 operate, he might get anything up to 6 weeks.

Yes I agree. If he is able to show that in fact he didn't lead with the head, the sanctions committee would probably say "and your point is...". To be honest, if this was Dylan Hartley, I don't think we would be having this discussion.

The game of rugby I like to follow doesn't involve players flying recklessly into rucks, not bound, especially with players regulary retiring permanently from the game with concussion issues (must be at least 2 or 3 players retired so far this season worldwide from concussion sequelae).

awec

Lyaiera wrote: »

So you're saying players should only be penalised if they break the laws and injure another player?

No.

I am saying you are very much exaggerating what happened.

Lyaiera

aimee1 wrote: »

so why was POC not cited when he kicked DK in the head rendering him unconscious?

I don't know.

Interested Observer

Lyaiera wrote: »

He has a responsibility not to hit someone with his head. Especially another player's face.

This is fair enough and perfectly reasonable, but your previous post was ridiculous hyperbole.

Brewster

Lyaiera wrote: »

He has a responsibility not to hit someone with his head. Especially another player's face.

Accidents happen all the time, it's a contact sport. Head collisions happen all the time. Most people seem to admit it was not intentional, so it was accidental then one can only deduce? So he has accidentally made contact with someone else's head as a result of a clearout? Can't be red for me....

Lyaiera

awec wrote: »

No.

I am saying you are very much exaggerating what happened.

I didn't exaggerate anything. You can read whatever severity of forces you want into the words I wrote but the video clearly shows Henderson's head driving into another player's head. This was purely due to his rucking technique. I don't think it was malicious, or intentional, it was reckless. He may even have imagined his arm on O'Mahony's chest would have knocked him back, but it didn't and his head went into O'Mahony's face. That's a red card.

Wang King

aimee1 wrote: »

so why was POC not cited when he kicked DK in the head rendering him unconscious?

Was wondering when this would be dragged up

..won't somebody think of the children!!

Borders no.2

Fair play to both sides. Munster got a stranglehold in the 2nd half but Ulster showed good character to hang in there at key stages. Munster will be the happiest side after the weekend even after letting that victory slip but that result means Ulster only lost once at home all season against Toulon which is a good record considering they weren't great for a lot of the season.

aimee1

Wang King wrote: »

Was wondering when this would be dragged up

..won't somebody think of the children!!

sorry its just something that annoys me about the game. The wildly varying lack of consistency around various incidents creates these types of discussions.

If the consistency was there then the game would be a much better place for it

.ak

I thought it was pretty reckless but I don't think he actually lead with his head i.e; using his head to make contact with the player. In real time you can see it was quite accidental but that's it. I think a yellow would've sufficed.

.ak

Wang King wrote: »

Was wondering when this would be dragged up

..won't somebody think of the children!!

Unfortunately it is a black mark on irish rugby and as soon as it was ignored it engraved itself into the history books.

Interested Observer

aimee1 wrote: »

sorry its just something that annoys me about the game. The wildly varying lack of consistency around various incidents creates these types of discussions.

If the consistency was there then the game would be a much better place for it

I think the citing process has been altered since? If it happened in a league game next week he'd be sent off and cited I would imagine. If it had have happened in Europe he'd definitely have been cited and banned. But yes consistency is an issue.

Lyaiera

.ak wrote: »

I thought it was pretty reckless but I don't think he actually lead with his head i.e; using his head to make contact with the player. In real time you can see it was quite accidental but that's it. I think a yellow would've sufficed.

I think a yellow would have been just, but the laws say the action results in a red. There have been tip tackles that looked unfortunate and totally unmalicious that resulted in reds as well, purely because of the meaning of the laws.

Edit: I have vague recollections of Nigel Owens even be complimented for giving such a red, possibly in a European or international game (Maybe England?) because they were trying to stamp out those tackles.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

so why was POC not cited when he kicked DK in the head rendering him unconscious?

Finally we get to the real crux of the issue! Justice for DK!

jacothelad

What Henderson did was pretty daft but you see it multiple times in games. However, take a look at the footage of Billy Vunipola a few weeks back against Matthew Tait and unbelievably, he was cleared of wrong doing. His actions make Henderson's seem like those of a girl guide. I'm also pretty certain if you look back thru' the game you'll see all the big men doing pretty similar stuff to Henderson at rucks.

http://sport.bt.com/sport-hurts/vunipola-bulldozes-his-way-throught-tait-91363975064834

ThisRegard

vienne86 wrote: »

Nope - Munster handed it to Ulster, who were down to 14 and missing their key player.

With some pretty brainsless decisions with the try line inevitable it could be easily argued the opposite.

Rightwing

jacothelad wrote: »

What Henderson did was pretty daft but you see it multiple times in games. However, take a look at the footage of Billy Vunipola a few weeks back against Matthew Tait and unbelievably, he was cleared of wrong doing. His actions make Henderson's seem like those of a girl guide. I'm also pretty certain if you look back thru' the game you'll see all the big men doing pretty similar stuff to Henderson at rucks.

http://sport.bt.com/sport-hurts/vunipola-bulldozes-his-way-throught-tait-91363975064834

2 wrongs don't make a right.

Buer

jacothelad wrote: »

What Henderson did was pretty daft but you see it multiple times in games. However, take a look at the footage of Billy Vunipola a few weeks back against Matthew Tait and unbelievably, he was cleared of wrong doing. His actions make Henderson's seem like those of a girl guide. I'm also pretty certain if you look back thru' the game you'll see all the big men doing pretty similar stuff to Henderson at rucks.

http://sport.bt.com/sport-hurts/vunipola-bulldozes-his-way-throught-tait-91363975064834

Those of us in the south or paupers without BT can't view that.

So you're saying the AP had vastly more lenient views on an incident?

*adds to dossier*

vienne86

Rightly or wrongly Henderson was red carded. It doesn't matter what any of us think - we just have to see what happens at the hearing.

case885

Healy got away with it v. France last year which looked far more dangerous, its highly reckless.