washing and drying machines in bathroom?

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd suggest that the issue might be that people are trying to circumvent the 'crazy' Irish rules and come a cropper (especially if the unshielded three pin plug design is inherently unsafe).

I have read a number of the accident reports.
This is not the case.


A few questions if you don't mind:

⦁ Have you actually read the section of ET101:2008 that deals with bathrooms?

⦁ Are you under the impression that it is not permitted to install a washing machine or tumble dryer in a bathroom in Ireland?
Note: This is covered in Table 701A page 173

⦁ Do you really want a BS1363 (standard) socket outlet in the bathroom? If so what do you want to plug into it??

MichaelR

2011 wrote: »

I have read a number of the accident reports.
This is not the case.


A few questions if you don't mind:

⦁ Have you actually read the section of ET101:2008 that deals with bathrooms?

⦁ Are you under the impression that it is not permitted to install a washing machine or tumble dryer in a bathroom in Ireland?
Note: This is covered in Table 701A page 173

⦁ Do you really want a BS1363 (standard) socket outlet in the bathroom? If so what do you want to plug into it??

I'm the OP, I have not read the rules, I would love to read them but don't really want to spend nearly 100 Euro on a copy.

I would VERY much appreciate if you could tell me what that table actually says about installing a washing machine or tumble dryer in a bathroom. This is key to my current home project.

I have no need for any sockets as sockets. If I can install the machines with fixed wiring, and if there is a set of rules to follow so all is ok with the regulations *and* warranty on the machines is not lost, I'm all up for it.

Hoagy

Here you go.


<Mod edit: Photos showing pages from National Rules for Electrical Installations removed. It is not permitted to reproduce these pages without written permission from the ETCI.>

2011

Hoagy wrote: »

Here you go.

That is not from the most recent (2008) edition of ET101

For Zone 3 all it now states "No special requirements except for luminaries (701.559)."

Hoagy

2011 wrote: »

That is not the most recent edition of ET101

For Zone 3 all it now states "No special requirements except for luminaries (701.559)."

I quoted the 2011 amendment, I think that's the most recent.

2011

Hoagy wrote: »

I quoted the 2011 amendment, I think that's the most recent.

Fair enough, but I don't see this in the amendment.

2011

MichaelR wrote: »

I would VERY much appreciate if you could tell me what that table actually says about installing a washing machine or tumble dryer in a bathroom. This is key to my current home project.

I have no need for any sockets as sockets. If I can install the machines with fixed wiring, and if there is a set of rules to follow so all is ok with the regulations *and* warranty on the machines is not lost, I'm all up for it.

My interpretation of the "National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008" relating to this matter is:

A washing machine may be fed from an unswitched spur outlet in a bathroom once it is installed in zone 3. The supply to the washing machine must be protected by an RCD.

Zone 3 starts 0.6m out from the edge of the shower or bath and extends another 2.4m

As you say there is no need for sockets, which is just as well as they are not permitted.
I can not see how warranty would be impacted.
I would advise installing descent extract fan(s) as humidity over a protracted period have an impact on the washing machine.

Hoagy

2011 wrote: »

I don't see this in the amendment.

That's a 9 page extract, the printed amendment has 29 pages.
You have to buy it.

2011

Hoagy wrote: »

That's a 9 page extract, the printed amendment has 29 pages.
You have to buy it.

Fair enough, what does it say?

Sorry I had to delete your photos or risk a slap on the wrist.
Hope you understand.

Hoagy

2011 wrote: »

Fair enough, what does it say?

Sorry I had to delete your photos or risk a slap on the wrist.
Hope you understand.

No problem, my bad.

The amended table allows any Class I or Class II appliances in Zone 3.

2011

Hoagy wrote: »

No problem, my bad.

The amended table allows any Class I or Class II appliances in Zone 3.

Ok, so we are still good IMHO.
Agree?

cruizer101

Might seem a silly question but what defines it as a bathroom. Sink, toilet, shower, bath. I understand not wanting to mix electrics and bath/shower, where there is steam and condensation and far more water. But if there is just a toilet and sink surely there isn't the same risk. I ask as we have a downstairs toilet with washer and dryer in it and I can't see how there is any more risk in them being there than in teh kitchen.

2011

2011 wrote: »

A few questions if you don't mind:

⦁ Have you actually read the section of ET101:2008 that deals with bathrooms?

I have not. It seems to be a quite closely guarded text. I don't know of any other public safety standards that cannot be reproduced.

2011 wrote: »

⦁ Are you under the impression that it is not permitted to install a washing machine or tumble dryer in a bathroom in Ireland?
Note: This is covered in Table 701A page 173

I was under that impression but I see now that it is possible to 'hard wire' one but this doesn't seem ideal.

2011 wrote: »

⦁ Do you really want a BS1363 (standard) socket outlet in the bathroom? If so what do you want to plug into it??

I am aware that it is absolutely normal to do this is other European countries and I have yet to see any logical reason why it is not permitted in Ireland. The photo I posted above is from a friends place in Belgium. In the bathroom there is a socket for the washing machine, a socket for a hairdryer, toothbrush etc, a light switch and a timer switch inside the door for a fan, and a light switch for the over mirror light. This was done about five years ago and had to be inspected and passed before the connection to the grid was authorised.
These are modern European countries that do take safety seriously. I'm curious why Ireland (and the UK) are so different.

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

I have not.

I thought so
If you were familiar with this publication I think you would have a very different view.

It seems to be a quite closely guarded text.

Not really, just normal copyright applies.
This is what is written on the first page:

The Electro-Technical Council of Ireland 2008. All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced, transmitted or stored in paper, electronic (including but not limited to any online service, any database or any part of the internet) CD-Rom or other off-line product or in any other format in any way whatsoever without the prior permission of the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland Limited.

I don't know of any other public safety standards that cannot be reproduced.

Let us not forget that the ETCI are a voluntary body comprising of experts that have given up their time to put these rules together free of charge. Their main source of funding is from selling publications.
If you have any specific questions regarding eh regulations you can phone or email the ETCI and they will reply free of charge. I have done this more than once before.

I think this represents good value for money, don't you?

Have a read of this.

I was under that impression but I see now that it is possible to 'hard wire' one but this doesn't seem ideal.

Why? You can still have a washing machine in the bathroom, they just make you install it a safe distance away from a shower or bath.

I am aware that it is absolutely normal to do this is other European countries

Incorrect. This is not permitted in the UK unless you have a very, very large bathroom.

The photo I posted above is from a friends place in Belgium. In the bathroom there is a socket for the washing machine, a socket for a hairdryer, toothbrush etc, a light switch and a timer switch inside the door for a fan, and a light switch for the over mirror light.

All of the above can be achieved without the need for a socket. It is permitted to install a string pull light switch within a bathroom in Ireland.

These are modern European countries that do take safety seriously. I'm curious why Ireland (and the UK) are so different.

We have higher safety standards in this regard. In my opinion Ireland is leading by example.



This report titled Towards improved electrical installations in European homes written by the "Forum for European Electrical Domestic Safety" shows that perhaps European domestic installations are not as safe as you may think.
Interestingly the very first illustration is on page 2, shows an electrical device in a bathroom with the caption "Don’t use electrical equipment in a bathroom"

Here are a few more interesting extracts:

While standards of safety in most areas of life are constantly improving, the safety of domestic electrical installations is not keeping pace. People expect to be at their safest when in their own homes and tend not be aware of the risks that face them there. Incidents resulting from unsafe installations - deaths and injuries from fire and electrical shock - are preventable. As the population and housing stock age, the need to introduce regulation to preserve and enhance their safety becomes an increasing priority.

A significant majority of domestic electrical installations in Europe are inadequate. The high average age of homes coupled with an intense electricity-based lifestyle and increasing safety standards are factors that require a regular, periodic renovation of electrical installations.

In todays London Evening Standard there is an article about two avoidable fatalities titled "Mother and son electrocuted: Pair killed in bath horror".
According to the article "The portable heater was on a unit next to the bath and it appeared to have been accidentally knocked into the water".

SpaceTime

Lack of RCD protection and poor quality accommodation with inadequate heating spring to mind there.

Terrible tragedy.

Never, ever chance electrics in the bathroom. I was horrified myself a few years ago when I was renting an apartment in Cork City.

Anytime I rent a place I would always have a quick look at the wiring to just check that it was reasonably modern and uptodate.
In this place everything looked fine.

Anyway one morning I was having a shower and something caused the RCD to trip (dishwasher leak).

The pumped shower (one of those wall mounted, retrofitted pumped showers that doesn't heat the water) continued to work.

I only realised this after I got out and found the power had tripped off.

I checked the board thinking, surely there must be an RCBO or something...

Nothing! The shower was wired to a 10amp MCB without an earth. The "Earth" was just connected to a bonding strap on a plastic pipe joint !!!

I rang the landlord who sent a handyman who accused me of being "paranoid".

Rang the landlord again and got nowhere.

Threatened to complain to the PRTB and she rang my housemate telling him that I was "a trouble maker"

Anyway in the end I wrote to her saying that if anyone were injured or killed by the installation I would quite willingly give evidence against her in court.

Only then did she send an electrician!!

_Brian

When we were building eight years ago we had te electrician install fixed outlet in the downstairs bathroom.
It's not like your going to e plugging in and out a washing machine. Ours is hard wired in.
Electrician said it was no bother and not the first he's done either.

MichaelR

Thanks - things seem to be reasonably clear. Just one question - does a washbasin/sink, the kind where you wash hands, create a Zone 0/1/2 around it too?

The plan for the machines is quite far from the shower (and a possible bath which is not there now). But it is close to a washbasin. But, I am thinking of putting up a partition anyway between the washbasin and the machines, so they are in a separate closet (not really a "room", one would need to open the door to load/unload them).

gctest50

MichaelR wrote: »

.......... and the machines, so they are in a separate closet (not really a "room", one would need to open the door to load/unload them).

are the machines designed to be used in a closet (cooling etc ) ?

Hoagy

MichaelR wrote: »

Just one question - does a washbasin/sink, the kind where you wash hands, create a Zone 0/1/2 around it too?

No, only around a bath or shower.

MichaelR

gctest50 wrote: »

are the machines designed to be used in a closet (cooling etc ) ?

Good point - perhaps I should not.

Also realized that there may be a vibration issue with locating them on first floor. Perhaps place dryer only there? A dryer does not have high-speed rotation thus would not vibrate?

greasepalm

interesting thread to add to ,i have seen those water save taps that have an internal heater to warm the water but that needs a power feed and in bathroom also?external power source needed then.

gctest50

MichaelR wrote: »

....... A dryer does not have high-speed rotation thus would not vibrate?

they do vibrate a bit - it can travel

(if you have space out the back)

you could get a combined washer/dryer something like this :

Our Experts Love this LG washer dryer. It has a direct drive motor which is guaranteed for 10 years and means this machine is quieter than standard washer dryers at just 55 dB(A)

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/laundry-dishwashers/washer-dryers/lg-f14a8yd5-washer-dryer-silver-21468300-pdt.html#cat-0

put it outside in a nice little shed and run it on night-rate electricity - "half price" washing and drying , and they'd be ready in the morning for you

MichaelR

Noooo!! Not a dryer outside. I've had that in a rented house, it ate electricity by the bucketload and took ages to dry anything, because it was drawing in cold air, not room temperature house air, and had to heat that.

Also most washer dryers are condensers - good for apartments, but as far as I know, less efficient than a vented one, and we can do the duct easily.

Last but not least, the price...

gctest50

MichaelR wrote: »

.......

Also most washer dryers are condensers - good for apartments, but as far as I know, less efficient than a vented one, and we can do the duct easily.

the heat-pump condensers are better than the aircooled condenser or the vented ones

old but anyway for now :

But running costs are about a third of a normal condenser tumble dryer - £37, instead of the more typical £100.

http://www.which.co.uk/news/2012/12/three-best-buy-tumble-dryers-revealed--305980/

MichaelR

But are there washer-dryers that are heat-pump condensers, and if there are, what do they cost?

EDIT: googled. The first model like that is out, but costs a fortune. http://www.johnlewis.com/aeg-l99695hwd-okokombi-plus-heat-pump-washer-dryer-9kg-wash-6kg-dry-load-a-energy-rating-1600rpm-spin-white/p1489678 - and that's in the UK; there is no Irish seller, and while delivery can probably be arranged, I'm not sure the warranty would work in Limerick.

However we might go for a heat pump dryer. It's still expensive, the cheapest model I found right now costs 629 Euro: http://www.electrocity.ie/product/siemens-wt46w381gb-condenser-tunble-dryer-7kg-white/ . But we can save on the installation, as there is no need for a vent, as well as on energy. So thanks for the tip, anyway.

YET ANOTHER EDIT: Heat Pump wins. At about 500 Euro, the price difference vs. a vented dryer is not a big issue compared to installation plus eyesore of vent plus energy saving. http://www.expert.ie/Product/whirlpool-aza8781-8kg-a-energy-heat-pump-dryer/299109/2.2.1

gctest50

list of recalled domestic gear ( burn your house down stuff )

http://www.registermyappliance.org.uk/products/recall-list/

Laundryroom

Hi there, Im new to boards.ie.. Im interested in changing a bathroom to a combined laundry room and toilet.. Reading these posts have not changed my mind but have given me more to think about. Has anyone got any examples of it turning out well or not.. My other half is really not in favour of it.

2011

A few things to consider:

1) From an electrical perspective bathrooms are split into different zones for safety reasons. As you can imagine electricity and water can be a dangerous mix. Different types of electrical equipment are permitted in different zones. So in your case the bathroom would have to be large enough so that the washing machine and associated wiring fall outside the more restrictive zones.

2) My advice would be to have no socket outlets (standard type) within the room. Instead the washing machine could be supplied from a spur outlet.

3) I have just finished installing a wet room in my own house. The cement board tiled floor slopes to the shower tray which has a drain at the lowest point of the room. This would be ideal for a laundry room.

4) I also installed a Philips Hue smart lighting system in the room. This means that I can place safely place the wireless battery powered switch wherever suits.

5) Consider good extraction fans. A steamy bathroom would not be good for the washing machine in the long term.

FYI: It is now a legal requirement that a REC does the wiring in a bathroom.

Laundryroom

2011
Thank you! there are a good few things to consider. I think its a really good idea to change the unused bathroom to a shower room/laundry room combined. As it stands, clothes are brought down stairs to be washed and then brought back up stairs to be dried and put away. There are two adults in the house so no need for a second bathroom.

greasepalm

Never get rid of a second bathroom as you never know what the future brings and having use of it.
Second bathroom is a walk in unit for use with wheelchair access.
Wetroom was done upstairs with sealed floor and walk in shower and as mentioned would have a fair bit of steam that will rust white goods if near to them.