washing and drying machines in bathroom?

MichaelR

Hello,

We have a rather big bathroom - actually a small bedroom that the previous owner converted into a bathroom. We want to use the space well so we'd like to place a washing machine and a drying machine there.

However Irish regulations appear to prohibit electric sockets inside a bathroom.

Is there a way to get around the regulations so they are not broken but the machines work? I was thinking of creating a hole in the wall, taking the power wires out through this hole, and plugging them into a socket mounted on the other side of the wall (and thus not in the bathroom). But it would not be very convenient to locate the machines next to the wall, and I do wonder if extending the machines' wires in a fixed way, thus removing the plugs, might invalidate the warranty.

dazed+confused

Can't speak for the warranty because that would be up to the manufacturer but I imagine you are correct on that one.

You can have a socket in the bathroom if it is more than 2 metres from the nearest water source.

MichaelR

dazed+confused wrote: »

You can have a socket in the bathroom if it is more than 2 metres from the nearest water source.

Sadly might not be possible... or it would end up in a rather inconvenient location.

Just had an idea though - an extension cord is not "built" in, so would not be subject to building regulations? So I might run an extension cord (a waterproof outdoor type) through a hole in the wall into the bathroom? This gets tricky around the definition of "building"; if I run it through a hole in the wall then plug the hole with plastic so moisture does not run out of the bathroom through it, did I just "build" an illegal socket or not yet? Alternatively if I just make a small hole for the wire and disassemble the extension cord's socket to push the wire through, is that "building"?

Risteard81

MichaelR wrote: »

an extension cord is not "built" in, so would not be subject to building regulations?

It has nothing to do with the Building Regulations anyway - it's the Wiring Rules which are applicable in this instance.

Robbie.G

Once it's outside the zones it's permissible to have appliances in bathroom.
The socket or connection would have to be outside the room.
I personally wouldn't put one a appliance in the bathroom but it's your personal
Choice.

MichaelR

Is a copy of the Wiring Rules available anywhere?

What I really need to understand is the scope, and also the consequences for breaking the rules when not done directly by an electrical contractor.

Worst case: I wire an (IP rated, RCD protected) socket in the bathroom on my own, without involving any contractor - do I go to jail? does it invalidate home insurance? etc. Not so worst case - I have a contractor wire an RCD protected socket outside the bathroom, drill a hole in the wal, use an IP rated extension cord - what's the consequence?

SpaceTime

The regulations are there to prevent death or injury in a barroom because you're likely to be standing on wet, tiled surfaces with wet feet.

They're sensible but more cautious than some of the continental equivalents because there was no guarantee of reliable RCD protection when they were introduced and because Irish regulations are broadly in line with IEE (UK) as well as CENELEC (European) and IEC (Global) harmonised standards. So whichever is the safest combination of those is usually what's required here.

Even with RCD protection, I don't like the idea of washing machines in a wet area. They're not IP rated, they aren't designed for wet and steamy environments and tend to become damaged - control boards fail, they rust (speaking from experience here as its common to have a machine in the bathroom in France).

Irish plugs are also absolutely not IP rated. CEE 7 plugs used on the continent have recessed sockets and are often actually rated for moisture to at least a minor degree. Irish/UK plugs have pins close to your fingers and access for fuses etc. you're only mm from live wiring so, if they're wet, they're not safe.

You've also got things like variable speed drives and capacitors in washing machines as part of the motor control system. In theory these could shock you and not trip the RCD as they're isolated from the mains. The motor in most modern machines is being powered via a system that rectifies AC to something approximating DC then switches it through solid state electronics to create variable frequency AC to control the motor speed.

If that somehow connected to your wet tiles, you could theoretically get shocked between the drive and earth.

greasepalm

also are washing machine and drier high usage in not suitable for extension leads?

brightspark

MichaelR wrote: »

Is a copy of the Wiring Rules available anywhere?

What I really need to understand is the scope, and also the consequences for breaking the rules when not done directly by an electrical contractor.

Worst case: I wire an (IP rated, RCD protected) socket in the bathroom on my own, without involving any contractor - do I go to jail? does it invalidate home insurance? etc. Not so worst case - I have a contractor wire an RCD protected socket outside the bathroom, drill a hole in the wal, use an IP rated extension cord - what's the consequence?

Worst case is the death of you or a family member.

RCDs have a failure rate, hence the requirement to test them.

Exactly how big is room? Can you upload a plan of the room showing bath and where you think you can put the machines.


Wiring rules cost approx €100 from the ETCI

SpaceTime

greasepalm wrote: »

also are washing machine and drier high usage in not suitable for extension leads?

Depends on the setup but generally not advisable to use them on extension leads which are often rated at much less than 13amps.

MichaelR

SpaceTime wrote: »

Depends on the setup but generally not advisable to use them on extension leads which are often rated at much less than 13amps.

I would of course use a 13 amp rated lead - and IP rated, too.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Masterplug-15m-IP-Rated-Extension-Lead-with-In-Line-IP54-Weatherproof-Socket-/331033825554 but I don't need 15 meters.

2011

A few things to consider:

1) Extension leads are only designed as a temporary solution. They are not intended for permanent use.

2) A tumble dryer and washing machine do not have to be fed from a socket. A spur outlet is often a far better option. In this scenario the socket intended for the use of the aforementioned appliances could be used for any appliance by someone else in the future. Then it's a case of "How was I to know that aunt Maud ask going to electrocute herself with the sandwich toaster while having a bath?".

3) Depending on an RCD to save your life is a bit like depending on a seatbelt to save your life. They are great safety devices but there is no guarantee that it will save you.

4) I agree that it is possible for a competent person to install an additional socket to a circuit safely. So does the current legislation once the work falls under the definition on “Minor electrical works” (which it does) and it complies fully with ET101.

In my view any individual that knowingly breaks very fundamental safety related electrical regulations is demonstrating that they are more a liability that competent.

5) In general extension leads are no more than 1.5 mm sq. making them completely unsuitable for wiring sockets.

6) It is unlikely that any individual that breaks electrical regulations will end up in jail. Responsible, competent individuals do not obey regulation just because of the risk of "getting caught".

greasepalm

looks like old black and decker cable i have on their drill,and what they describe to be used for are for power drills,lawnmowers etc.

2011

MichaelR wrote: »

I would of course use a 13 amp rated lead - and IP rated, too.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Masterplug-15m-IP-Rated-Extension-Lead-with-In-Line-IP54-Weatherproof-Socket-/331033825554 but I don't need 15 meters.

So are you suggesting that an extension lead is run into the bathroom on a permanent basis and the door is opened and closed on the lead?
Not a very safe solution, although you may "get away with it".

A gunter at best.

Does anybody know why Ireland (and the UK) have such a strict policy in this regard? I've lived in many countries and its always been normal to have the washing machine (and power sockets) in the bathroom. None of this pull cord stuff either.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Does anybody know why Ireland (and the UK) have such a strict policy in this regard? I've lived in many countries and its always been normal to have the washing machine (and power sockets) in the bathroom. None of this pull cord stuff either.

Ah Apologies. I read responses above again and it seems its because of the (poor) design of the three pin plugs. Could continental plugs be fitted in an irish bathroom and would this be allowed?

brightspark

From this site

http://www.esb.ie/esbnetworks/en/safety-environment/bathroom_safety.jsp

NO socket outlets, other than specially designed shaver outlets are allowed in bathrooms and this rule also applies to en-suite bathrooms. Under no circumstances should portable appliances, such as a hair-dryer, electric fire, washing machine or even a mains-operated radio be brought into a bathroom EVEN if it is plugged in outside the room.

brightspark

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah Apologies. I read responses above again and it seems its because of the (poor) design of the three pin plugs. Could continental plugs be fitted in an irish bathroom and would this be allowed?

Not allowed to install other types of sockets according to the regs (with some exceptions not relevant to this thread)

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah Apologies. I read responses above again and it seems its because of the (poor) design of the three pin plugs. Could continental plugs be fitted in an irish bathroom and would this be allowed?

Its more the possibly over cautious approach taken by rule makers than simply being down to socket design.

MichaelR

2011 wrote: »

2) A tumble dryer and washing machine do not have to be fed from a socket. A spur outlet is often a far better option.

I would love that option! My only question is whether removing the plug and attaching the power lead into a box might invalidate the warranty of the appliance. If it can be done this is most definitely the way to go (if we install them there at all).

4) I agree that it is possible for a competent person to install an additional socket to a circuit safely. So does the current legislation once the work falls under the definition on “Minor electrical works” (which it does) and it complies fully with ET101.

What is the relevant legislation? As were talking about lawyering here I'd rather have the text.

In my view any individual that knowingly breaks very fundamental safety related electrical regulations is demonstrating that they are more a liability that competent.

They can not be that fundamental if they only exist in the UK and Ireland, and the other practice is widespread on the continent. It might have to do with the difference between UK and continental sockets, though. As I wrote above I'd love to do without a socket if I can just be sure I still have the appliance warranty.

MichaelR

2011 wrote: »

So are you suggesting that an extension lead is run into the bathroom on a permanent basis and the door is opened and closed on the lead?
Not a very safe solution, although you may "get away with it".

A gunter at best.

No opening and closing of the door; run it through a hole in the wall.

Using a fixed box (I think that's what they mean by "spur") would be a better option in all ways. It can have a cutoff switch and an RCD. What I don't know is how to get that done without losing the machine warranty... perhaps order the machines with installation from the shop and have the installer wire them into the box?

SpaceTime

MichaelR wrote: »

I would of course use a 13 amp rated lead - and IP rated, too.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Masterplug-15m-IP-Rated-Extension-Lead-with-In-Line-IP54-Weatherproof-Socket-/331033825554 but I don't need 15 meters.

That's not heavy duty enough to cope with the washing machine heating.
You'll also find that's probably 10amp. It's intended for gardening equipment.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

You've also got things like variable speed drives and capacitors in washing machines as part of the motor control system. In theory these could shock you and not trip the RCD as they're isolated from the mains. The motor in most modern machines is being powered via a system that rectifies AC to something approximating DC then switches it through solid state electronics to create variable frequency AC to control the motor speed.

If that somehow connected to your wet tiles, you could theoretically get shocked between the drive and earth.

I couldn't envisage much chance of that happening.

brightspark

How far from the edge of the bath will the washing machine be?

MichaelR

brightspark wrote: »

How far from the edge of the bath will the washing machine be?

Definitely over a meter.

There is currently just a shower not a bath, but we might end up installing a bath.

SpaceTime

Just don't do this :

http://www.leblogdeco.fr/wp-content/2010/11/interieur-design-machine-laver.jpg

I was looking at our dryer. It's got a short, 1.5mm2 flex so, definitely not a great idea to connect to an extension lead.

2011

MichaelR wrote: »

What is the relevant legislation? As were talking about lawyering here I'd rather have the text.

That would be Statuary Instrument 246 of 2013.
You can read all about it here.

Some background information here.

They can not be that fundamental if they only exist in the UK and Ireland, and the other practice is widespread on the continent. It might have to do with the difference between UK and continental sockets, though. As I wrote above I'd love to do without a socket if I can just be sure I still have the appliance warranty.

Maybe this will help explain it to you, I have underlined the most important parts:

Q: Why are Wiring Rules so strict for bathrooms?
A: Because in the normal house the bathroom is the most dangerous room in the house. An electric shock in a bathroom is often fatal. Nearly every year someone is electrocuted in a bathroom because of breaches in the wiring. Remember with electricity, because it works does not mean that it is safe.

From this ETCI link.

I would love that option! My only question is whether removing the plug and attaching the power lead into a box might invalidate the warranty of the appliance.

Using a fused spur outlet would not invalidate the warranty.

MichaelR

2011 wrote: »

That would be Statuary Instrument 246 of 2013.
You can read all about it here.

Some background information here.

Thanks! It seems that "provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit" can go under "minor works" but addition of an RCD probably can't. And the regs clearly apply to "fixed" work. So usage of an extension cord would not fall under them - but, apparently, attachment of machines using a spur outlet *would* fall under them, and thus has to be done by a registered contractor.

Apparently the safest options require a registered contractor, while pure lawyering works for less safe ones.

Maybe this will help explain it to you, I have underlined the most important parts

This does not explain the difference between UK/Ireland and the Continent, where the regulations are different.

Using a fused spur outlet would not invalidate the warranty.

But would it not involve disconnecting the factory plug to attach the power cable to the outlet box?

2011

MichaelR wrote: »

Thanks! It seems that "provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit" can go under "minor works"

Yes, I pointed this out in post #12

And the regs clearly apply to "fixed" work.

If you are suggesting that your proposal would not be in breach of the regulations you are incorrect.

This does not explain the difference between UK/Ireland and the Continent, where the regulations are different.

I am open to correction on this but I do not believe that they are allowed to install sockets (other than shaver sockets) in bathrooms in the UK.
Although the laws of physics are the same all over the world some countries take the concerns about mixing water with electricity more seriously than others.

Driving tests would be a good analogy. It is not easy to get a driving test in Germany. In India they have a very different view on this:

But would it not involve disconnecting the factory plug to attach the power cable to the outlet box?

Connection to a fused spur outlet would mean that removing the plug would be necessary, yes.

SpaceTime

The regulations are different because we're stricter and statistically speaking have fewer electric shock deaths than most other countries. It's incredibly unlikely to get killed by electric shock here in a domestic or office setting because the rules are strict.

A lot of Northern European countries have similar regulations. There's no "continental" standard vs Irish or British standard. We're all harmonising towards similar regulations based on best practice.

Just because most EU countries use the same plugs and sockets doesn't mean they've identical regulations. Some are stricter than others and some are focused on some aspects of safety more than others.

Some countries are just historically not very strict about bathrooms. It was common to have washing machines in bathrooms in France for example long before RCDs were mandatory. So, it's nothing to do with that.

Earthing was extremely optional in some continental countries in the recent past too. France for example didn't require eathed sockets in every room until the 1990s.

Not everything we do is best practice though - for example we allow lighting and cooking circuits without RCDs, where as many countries now mandate multiple RCDs to cover every circuit.

But on the basics, the rules here are very solid and have been for a very long time.

Changing the plug does NOT invalidate any warranty. It's often necessary for certain installations - for example older houses here may still use round pin or continental sockets.

Incorrectly wiring the plug, if it did damage, would probably invalidate it though.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

.
Not everything we do is best practice though - for example we allow lighting and cooking circuits without RCDs, where as many countries now mandate multiple RCDs to cover every circuit.

Eventually its all rcbo's I'd say. It will make the boards easier to terminate as well.

SpaceTime

Bruthal wrote: »

Eventually its all rcbo's I'd say. It will make the boards easier to terminate as well.

The current French regs gave a 3 or 4 row board with an RCD at the start of each row. You scatter the lights across all 3 to avoid plunging the house into darkness of it trips.

RCBOs are cheap and practical now though.

MichaelR

So to summarize:

- We need to evaluate whether the likely reduced life of the washer and dryer and a small danger (that persists despire RCD and earthing) might make it unworthy to go for it. (Downside of not doing it: having to carry clothes from downstairs to upstairs after all washes, as there is no room upstairs for a separate utility space). As an aside, would installing only a vented dryer be safer?

- If we do install it, it looks like the best option is to go for a fixed spur outlet with an RCD (or even better RCBO?) inside the bathroom, and to have the wiring done by a registered contractor to comply with regs; this is not a socket so not prohibited; removing plugs will not invalidate warranty on the machines.

Right?

One more idea I just had is to wall the small utility space off the bathroom. Basically put the machines in an enclosure that goes up to the ceiling. Make it normally closed, though one would of course need to open it to load/unload the machines. There would be probably aesthetic issues with the setup, as the vent for the dryer would have to go on the bathroom wall for a considerable distance. But it might be worth it if safety is sufficiently improved?

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

I am open to correction on this but I do not believe that they are allowed to install sockets (other than shaver sockets) in bathrooms in the UK.

That is no longer technically true since the 17th Edition came out in 2008. Socket outlets are permitted now so long as they are greater than three metres from a bath or shower (and RCD protected), although in practice this generally rules them out.

2011

MichaelR wrote: »

We need to evaluate whether the likely reduced life of the washer and dryer and a small danger (that persists despire RCD and earthing) might make it unworthy to go for it.

What you are describing here is a risk assessment. I expect that this has already been done, which would explain why we have the regulations that we have.

Despite this (as per link in post #27) one person a year is electrocuted in a bathroom per year, often with fatal consequences.

If we do install it, it looks like the best option is to go for a fixed spur outlet with an RCD (or even better RCBO?) inside the bathroom, and to have the wiring done by a registered contractor to comply with regs; this is not a socket so not prohibited; removing plugs will not invalidate warranty on the machines.

That would be my recommendation, assuming that both units can be far enough away from the bath / shower etc.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

That is no longer technically true since the 17th Edition came out in 2008. Socket outlets are permitted now so long as they are greater than three metres from a bath or shower (and RCD protected), although in practice this generally rules them out.

Thanks.
Well it would definitely rule out my bathrooms.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

The current French regs gave a 3 or 4 row board with an RCD at the start of each row. You scatter the lights across all 3 to avoid plunging the house into darkness of it trips.

RCBOs are cheap and practical now though.

Rcbo's are far better. Easier to keep the board neater. No cumulative risidual currents from multiple circuits.

Faults much easier to track down due to being more likely that the tripped breaker circuit is the one to have the fault, and neutrals are easy to identify, and the neutrals are disconnected when the breaker is off, removing the need to go disconnecting neutrals to find a fault on one.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

.

Despite this (as per link in post #27) one person a year is electrocuted in a bathroom per year, often with fatal consequences.

I don't think anyone ever survived being electrocuted:pac:

MichaelR

2011 wrote: »

What you are describing here is a risk assessment. I expect that this has already been done, which would explain why we have the regulations that we have.

The regulations actually don't cover machines for all I know - just sockets. And we are looking at a solution with no sockets.

That before we discuss risk assessment in Ireland vs France.

brightspark

The regulations do specify requirements for fixed appliances in various zones.

SpaceTime

Bruthal wrote: »

Rcbo's are far better. Easier to keep the board neater. No cumulative risidual currents from multiple circuits.

Faults much easier to track down due to being more likely that the tripped breaker circuit is the one to have the fault, and neutrals are easy to identify, and the neutrals are disconnected when the breaker is off, removing the need to go disconnecting neutrals to find a fault on one.

They were VERY expensive when those regs were implemented though.

To be honest I think our bathroom regs are a bit illogical.

Paranoid about sockets.
Permit electric showers right in the actual shower cubical protected only by an RCD (they are not waterproof despite what people think - just splash proof)
No RCD on lights yet and a very old fashioned shaver socket arrangement using an isolating transformer that's usually wall mounted as part of a non RCD protected light fitting that you're encouraged to touch!

I'm not suggesting ignoring them but they do seem to be more about traditional practice than logic.

Bruthal

SpaceTime wrote: »

They were VERY expensive when those regs were implemented though.

To be honest I think our bathroom regs are a bit illogical.

Paranoid about sockets.
Permit electric showers right in the actual shower cubical protected only by an RCD (they are not waterproof despite what people think - just splash proof)
No RCD on lights yet and a very old fashioned shaver socket arrangement using an isolating transformer that's usually wall mounted as part of a non RCD protected light fitting that you're encouraged to touch!

I'm not suggesting ignoring them but they do seem to be more about traditional practice than logic.

A socket in a bathroom is not as dangerous as many would believe. The natural thought is horror based on water plus electricity, rather than the actual, if somewhat clouded, facts.

More of a problem would be people here using hand held items such as hair dryers etc in the bathroom, rather than appliances like washing machines. A good sized bathroom would be needed really though.

exaisle

Bruthal wrote: »

I don't think anyone ever survived being electrocuted:pac:

Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....

SpaceTime

Bruthal wrote: »

A socket in a bathroom is not as dangerous as many would believe. The natural thought is horror based on water plus electricity, rather than the actual, if somewhat clouded, facts.

They're actually required over the bathroom sink in many countries. And I don't mean the shaver sicker variety.

SpaceTime

exaisle wrote: »

Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....

The phrase is actually very macabre. It comes from Edison's promotion of the Electric Chair

Electro+execution = electrocution. It just caught on to mean anyone getting a bad shock in Ireland.

Bruthal

exaisle wrote: »

Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....

They werent really electrocuted though.

MichaelR

MichaelR wrote: »

They can not be that fundamental if they only exist in the UK and Ireland, and the other practice is widespread on the continent. It might have to do with the difference between UK and continental sockets, though.

So is this bathroom set-up actually dangerous or are we goldplating or playing silly buggers here?

2011

Deleted User wrote: »

So is this bathroom set-up actually dangerous or are we goldplating or playing silly buggers here?

Define dangerous?

It looks like a set up that is often used in utility rooms.

The biggest risk I see is the location of the socket outlet. I don't think that it is advisable to install a socket outlet that close to a sink. This means that there is increased likelihood that someone with wet hands will plug something in and therefore there is increased shock risk. If there is a shower or bath in the room and a tiled floor with wet feet on it the risk is further increased. This is why bathroom light switches are located outside the bathroom. Regulations are generally driven by statistics. Statistically bathrooms are the most dangerous rooms in a house, so the most onerous regulations are for these rooms.

SpaceTime

The regulations were driven by pre-RCD rules in the UK. It was one of the last countries (if not the last) to mandate RCD usage on socket circuits.

Most UK homes still don't have them as they're only a recent thing.

Where as in a lot of other countries in Europe RCDs are nearly universally installed.

Ireland was quite far ahead of the UK on that.

The regulations have to cover real world installations and the majority of UK homes do not have any form of RCD protection and are unlikely to get it unless completely rewired at some stage in the future so I can't see the rules changing on the IEE side of things anyway.

2011

SpaceTime wrote: »

The regulations were driven by pre-RCD rules in the UK. It was one of the last countries (if not the last) to mandate RCD usage on socket circuits.

Most UK homes still don't have them as they're only a recent thing.

From memory RCDs have been required in the UK for a long time for all outdoor sockets though.

greasepalm

many years ago got a en suite in no power sockets inside as the room is all tiled except roof yes very steamy in the wet room and power for the shower is via a pull chord just inside door as it was wheelchair usable,light switch outside.
there are tumble driers which remove the water from clothes into a chamber inside machine without the need for venting.