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washing and drying machines in bathroom?

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24

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    #32
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Eventually its all rcbo's I'd say. It will make the boards easier to terminate as well.

    The current French regs gave a 3 or 4 row board with an RCD at the start of each row. You scatter the lights across all 3 to avoid plunging the house into darkness of it trips.

    RCBOs are cheap and practical now though.


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    #33
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    So to summarize:

    - We need to evaluate whether the likely reduced life of the washer and dryer and a small danger (that persists despire RCD and earthing) might make it unworthy to go for it. (Downside of not doing it: having to carry clothes from downstairs to upstairs after all washes, as there is no room upstairs for a separate utility space). As an aside, would installing only a vented dryer be safer?

    - If we do install it, it looks like the best option is to go for a fixed spur outlet with an RCD (or even better RCBO?) inside the bathroom, and to have the wiring done by a registered contractor to comply with regs; this is not a socket so not prohibited; removing plugs will not invalidate warranty on the machines.

    Right?

    One more idea I just had is to wall the small utility space off the bathroom. Basically put the machines in an enclosure that goes up to the ceiling. Make it normally closed, though one would of course need to open it to load/unload the machines. There would be probably aesthetic issues with the setup, as the vent for the dryer would have to go on the bathroom wall for a considerable distance. But it might be worth it if safety is sufficiently improved?


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    #34
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    I am open to correction on this but I do not believe that they are allowed to install sockets (other than shaver sockets) in bathrooms in the UK.

    That is no longer technically true since the 17th Edition came out in 2008. Socket outlets are permitted now so long as they are greater than three metres from a bath or shower (and RCD protected), although in practice this generally rules them out.


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    #35
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    MichaelR wrote: »
    We need to evaluate whether the likely reduced life of the washer and dryer and a small danger (that persists despire RCD and earthing) might make it unworthy to go for it.

    What you are describing here is a risk assessment. I expect that this has already been done, which would explain why we have the regulations that we have.

    Despite this (as per link in post #27) one person a year is electrocuted in a bathroom per year, often with fatal consequences.
    If we do install it, it looks like the best option is to go for a fixed spur outlet with an RCD (or even better RCBO?) inside the bathroom, and to have the wiring done by a registered contractor to comply with regs; this is not a socket so not prohibited; removing plugs will not invalidate warranty on the machines.

    That would be my recommendation, assuming that both units can be far enough away from the bath / shower etc.


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    #36
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    That is no longer technically true since the 17th Edition came out in 2008. Socket outlets are permitted now so long as they are greater than three metres from a bath or shower (and RCD protected), although in practice this generally rules them out.

    Thanks.
    Well it would definitely rule out my bathrooms.


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    #37
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The current French regs gave a 3 or 4 row board with an RCD at the start of each row. You scatter the lights across all 3 to avoid plunging the house into darkness of it trips.

    RCBOs are cheap and practical now though.

    Rcbo's are far better. Easier to keep the board neater. No cumulative risidual currents from multiple circuits.

    Faults much easier to track down due to being more likely that the tripped breaker circuit is the one to have the fault, and neutrals are easy to identify, and the neutrals are disconnected when the breaker is off, removing the need to go disconnecting neutrals to find a fault on one.


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    #38
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    .

    Despite this (as per link in post #27) one person a year is electrocuted in a bathroom per year, often with fatal consequences.

    I don't think anyone ever survived being electrocuted:pac:


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    #39
    MichaelR
    Registered Users Posts: 805 ✭✭✭MichaelR


    2011 wrote: »
    What you are describing here is a risk assessment. I expect that this has already been done, which would explain why we have the regulations that we have.

    The regulations actually don't cover machines for all I know - just sockets. And we are looking at a solution with no sockets.

    That before we discuss risk assessment in Ireland vs France.


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    #40
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    The regulations do specify requirements for fixed appliances in various zones.


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    #41
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Rcbo's are far better. Easier to keep the board neater. No cumulative risidual currents from multiple circuits.

    Faults much easier to track down due to being more likely that the tripped breaker circuit is the one to have the fault, and neutrals are easy to identify, and the neutrals are disconnected when the breaker is off, removing the need to go disconnecting neutrals to find a fault on one.

    They were VERY expensive when those regs were implemented though.

    To be honest I think our bathroom regs are a bit illogical.

    Paranoid about sockets.
    Permit electric showers right in the actual shower cubical protected only by an RCD (they are not waterproof despite what people think - just splash proof)
    No RCD on lights yet and a very old fashioned shaver socket arrangement using an isolating transformer that's usually wall mounted as part of a non RCD protected light fitting that you're encouraged to touch!

    I'm not suggesting ignoring them but they do seem to be more about traditional practice than logic.


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    #42
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    They were VERY expensive when those regs were implemented though.

    To be honest I think our bathroom regs are a bit illogical.

    Paranoid about sockets.
    Permit electric showers right in the actual shower cubical protected only by an RCD (they are not waterproof despite what people think - just splash proof)
    No RCD on lights yet and a very old fashioned shaver socket arrangement using an isolating transformer that's usually wall mounted as part of a non RCD protected light fitting that you're encouraged to touch!

    I'm not suggesting ignoring them but they do seem to be more about traditional practice than logic.

    A socket in a bathroom is not as dangerous as many would believe. The natural thought is horror based on water plus electricity, rather than the actual, if somewhat clouded, facts.

    More of a problem would be people here using hand held items such as hair dryers etc in the bathroom, rather than appliances like washing machines. A good sized bathroom would be needed really though.


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    #43
    exaisle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭exaisle


    Bruthal wrote: »
    I don't think anyone ever survived being electrocuted:pac:

    Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....


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    #44
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Bruthal wrote: »
    A socket in a bathroom is not as dangerous as many would believe. The natural thought is horror based on water plus electricity, rather than the actual, if somewhat clouded, facts.

    They're actually required over the bathroom sink in many countries. And I don't mean the shaver sicker variety.


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    #45
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    exaisle wrote: »
    Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....

    The phrase is actually very macabre. It comes from Edison's promotion of the Electric Chair

    Electro+execution = electrocution. It just caught on to mean anyone getting a bad shock in Ireland.


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    #46
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    exaisle wrote: »
    Electrocution over this side of the pond can refer to non-fatal injuries....

    They werent really electrocuted though.


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MichaelR wrote: »
    They can not be that fundamental if they only exist in the UK and Ireland, and the other practice is widespread on the continent. It might have to do with the difference between UK and continental sockets, though.

    So is this bathroom set-up actually dangerous or are we goldplating or playing silly buggers here?


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    #48
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So is this bathroom set-up actually dangerous or are we goldplating or playing silly buggers here?

    Define dangerous?

    It looks like a set up that is often used in utility rooms.

    The biggest risk I see is the location of the socket outlet. I don't think that it is advisable to install a socket outlet that close to a sink. This means that there is increased likelihood that someone with wet hands will plug something in and therefore there is increased shock risk. If there is a shower or bath in the room and a tiled floor with wet feet on it the risk is further increased. This is why bathroom light switches are located outside the bathroom. Regulations are generally driven by statistics. Statistically bathrooms are the most dangerous rooms in a house, so the most onerous regulations are for these rooms.


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    #49
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    The regulations were driven by pre-RCD rules in the UK. It was one of the last countries (if not the last) to mandate RCD usage on socket circuits.

    Most UK homes still don't have them as they're only a recent thing.

    Where as in a lot of other countries in Europe RCDs are nearly universally installed.

    Ireland was quite far ahead of the UK on that.

    The regulations have to cover real world installations and the majority of UK homes do not have any form of RCD protection and are unlikely to get it unless completely rewired at some stage in the future so I can't see the rules changing on the IEE side of things anyway.


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    #50
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    The regulations were driven by pre-RCD rules in the UK. It was one of the last countries (if not the last) to mandate RCD usage on socket circuits.

    Most UK homes still don't have them as they're only a recent thing.

    From memory RCDs have been required in the UK for a long time for all outdoor sockets though.


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    #51
    greasepalm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭greasepalm


    many years ago got a en suite in no power sockets inside as the room is all tiled except roof yes very steamy in the wet room and power for the shower is via a pull chord just inside door as it was wheelchair usable,light switch outside.
    there are tumble driers which remove the water from clothes into a chamber inside machine without the need for venting.


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    #52
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    2011 wrote: »
    From memory RCDs have been required in the UK for a long time for all outdoor sockets though.

    They may well have been but not on general sockets until a few years ago.


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    2011 wrote: »
    Define dangerous?

    As in I wouldn't be allowed do it in Ireland for safety reasons.


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    #54
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As in I wouldn't be allowed do it in Ireland for safety reasons.

    A socket like that would not be permitted in a bathroom in Ireland for safety reasons.


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    #55
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    They may well have been but not on general sockets until a few years ago.

    Agreed.
    I remember that from doing the City & Guilds 236 parts 2 and 3 any moons ago.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    2011 wrote: »
    A socket like that would not be permitted in a bathroom in Ireland for safety reasons.


    Is this justified? It seems weird that most, if not all of Europe, bar the UK can do this.

    A post above seemed to imply that we were using UK rules but that the situation in Ireland was 'far ahead of the UK' on RCDs...

    Surely if a house can be wired safely in this country, then it should be allowed, whatever the UK rules say.?


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    #57
    thereitisgone
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭thereitisgone


    These Irish rules are crazy, basicly 90 percecent of scandinavian homes have washing machine in the shower room, always have had as washing machine has to be in a sealed wet room for insurance. Nobody dying over here from electric shocks.


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    #58
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    thereitisgone wrote: »
    These Irish rules are crazy, basicly 90 percecent of scandinavian homes have washing machine in the shower room, always have had as washing machine has to be in a sealed wet room for insurance. Nobody dying over here from electric shocks.

    Well then they are doing better than we are in Ireland.
    Unfortunately we have had a number of fatalities over here :)

    Oh wait a minute:
    Indoors locations
    29 electrical accidents happened indoors. Nine accidents happened at home or a house but the exact room could not be identified. Five accidents happened at the bathroom at home and three accidents happened at other rooms including a hall, a washing house and a living room at home. Four accidents occurred in a kitchen at home. Four leisure time electrical accidents occurred in other places consisting of a youth hostel, a train, a boiler room of a farm and a glass-house. Two accidents occurred in a public swimming pool (at the same time at the same place) and in shops.

    Link


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    2011 wrote: »
    Well then they are doing better than we are in Ireland.
    Unfortunately we have had a number of fatalities over here :)

    Oh wait a minute:



    Link

    I couldn't get the link to work. However 5 out of 29 accidents happened in the bathroom. I'm not sure that this shows that the bathroom is especially dangerous.? After all these are Irish bathrooms and should have all the additional measures.

    If Ireland is really having a disproportionate number of electrical accidents in bathrooms compared to other European countries, I'd suggest that the issue might be that people are trying to circumvent the 'crazy' Irish rules and come a cropper (especially if the unshielded three pin plug design is inherently unsafe).


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    #60
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Irish electrical fatality rates are extremely low

    http://www.etci.ie/accidents/tables.html

    Especially in a domestic or light business / office setting.

    Where they do occur they're mostly construction, agricultural or direct contact with overhead lines or other distribution plant.

    UK stats: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/

    Factor in that the UK is 13.9 times bigger.


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    #61
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    It would be interesting to see what fatalities happened on RCD controlled circuits.


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