Isn't it time for school uniforms to be scrapped at this stage???

Inspector Coptoor

School isn't a fashion show, nor should it be.
And I mean that for both students and teachers.

katydid

syklops wrote: »

In my secondary school girls could wear navy cords during the winter months, once summer came in it was back to skirts for them.
.

I just don't understand why that happens, and why parents put up with it. This isn't 1815.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

It wasn't an issue for her or her friends most likely because they weren't the people described earlier that didn't have the money for the branded things.
It's a problem for the ones who keep quiet. The ones that "forget" about the non uniform day every time.

Or maybe because young people are not as hung up on these things as we think? How come a seventeen year old can go to college and come in happily ever day to class without any hassle? How can entire classes of seventeen and eighteen year olds get through the whole day without bullying or sniping at each other over what they wear? How come kids in other countries don't make a big deal of it?

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Our school sent out surveys last year about uniforms and there was an overwhelming vote to keep the uniform. It came up in my classes a few times and surprisingly students in my classes mentioned the fact that they would like blazers, which the school I work in doesn't have. They thought they looked smart and were willing to wear them to school as part of the uniform. .

It's because these kids know no better, and because the easy way out is not to have to think. Our educational system should be encouraging them to think. Not to be sheep.

Lau2976

I think uniforms are good for schools and students. It's no doubt that some are a pain, my own was a kilt that had to be below calf lenght with a shirt and embroidered jumper and tie. All of which (minus the shirt) was only available at 1 shop even though I lived in dublin. No tights were allowed, no branded shoes (they had to be fully black) socks had to be black and knee lenght, we had a school jacket that had to be worn. Anything else would be confiscated. Pe was the same, plain white runners, embroidered "sports" jumper. Embroidered t shirt and o'neills. No exceptions. We were never allowed wear trousers for a full day ( had to change- even if you only had 1 class after pe) and weren't allowed wear trousers in the snow or rain. That's way OTT IMO but on a whole I think they really allow students to focus on studying.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

It's because these kids know no better, and because the easy way out is not to have to think. Our educational system should be encouraging them to think. Not to be sheep.

Katydid, it is possible for people to have opinions that are different to yours. Some students like having uniforms. The ones in my class came up with the blazer idea themselves. There are no schools that I'm familiar with in this part of the country that have them.

It's insulting to students for you to say that they know no better and they don't think for themselves. Not every student is hung up on having to express their individuality through their clothing every day in school. They have the opportunity to do that every evening after school, at weekends and during their holidays.

College students do get to wear their own clothes to college and guess what, they wear a uniform too. The vast majority of college students I encounter wear a combination of jeans (currently the skinny type)/tracksuit bottoms and hoodies typically of the Jack and Jones/Abercrombie and Fitch variety. I'm back in college this year and the clothing that most of students in my lab wear is the exact same.

We haven't had a non uniform day in my school in years and when we did it was much the same.

katydid

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

School isn't a fashion show, nor should it be.
And I mean that for both students and teachers.

I agree. And it's not. The only difference is that teachers have a choice in how they can dress, and students don't.

katydid

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Katydid, it is possible for people to have opinions that are different to yours. Some students like having uniforms. The ones in my class came up with the blazer idea themselves. There are no schools that I'm familiar with in this part of the country that have them.

It's insulting to students for you to say that they know no better and they don't think for themselves. Not every student is hung up on having to express their individuality through their clothing every day in school. They have the opportunity to do that every evening after school, at weekends and during their holidays.

College students do get to wear their own clothes to college and guess what, they wear a uniform too. The vast majority of college students I encounter wear a combination of jeans (currently the skinny type)/tracksuit bottoms and hoodies typically of the Jack and Jones/Abercrombie and Fitch variety. I'm back in college this year and the clothing that most of students in my lab wear is the exact same.

We haven't had a non uniform day in my school in years and when we did it was much the same.

When did I say people don't have a right to have an opinion?

It is my experience from over thirty years of teaching, first at second then at FE level that when students resent the petty rules around uniform, and that one they are out of the environment of uniform and encouraged to think for themselves, they don't favour uniforms. So that tells me that the reason they tend to opt for them when asked at second level is that they are not encouraged to explore out of their comfort zone.

You're right that most post LC students wear a "uniform" of sorts, but that's from choice, and they are not all the same. They vary colours, logos, styles. And if someone wants to dye their hair purple or wear a nose ring or a frilly dress, then they can. What's wrong with that?

stehyl15

Get rid of them altogether ive a strange trousers fit and their all either too tight or theyre falling down on me so uncomfortable. The jumpers are terrible way too heavy and who the fúck wears a tie in this day and age. Ban them altogether. Also whats with the schools that won't let their pupils get hair dyed or shaved.

Kathnora

I think that when it comes to 3rd level students gain a bit of sense and they don't try to impress as much with a particular style of dress. 3rd level students seem content to adopt their own uniform of hoody and jeans. At 2nd level it's all about impressing your peers and maybe teachers too! Girls can turn out in very skimpy clothing and it's then I feel that male teachers could have difficulty averting their eyes!!

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

I agree. And it's not. The only difference is that teachers have a choice in how they can dress, and students don't.

Aye but there's a big difference between Teachers, Students, College Students, Fetac, Apprenticeship etc...

In a way for teenagers they have their own dress code which they bounce off each other with (goths vs. dolly birds, emo's vs. jocks (maybe I'm out of touch with these terms!)). Maybe all schools should be celebrating this diversity and teenagers finding their place amongst groups etc. but personally I think 'to hell with that', remove that from the equation and let them worry about it outside school-time.
Easier to decide what to wear every morning.
Easier on parents instead of buying 'wardrobes!!'

katydid

Kathnora wrote: »

I think that when it comes to 3rd level students gain a bit of sense and they don't try to impress as much with a particular style of dress. 3rd level students seem content to adopt their own uniform of hoody and jeans. At 2nd level it's all about impressing your peers and maybe teachers too! Girls can turn out in very skimpy clothing and it's then I feel that male teachers could have difficulty averting their eyes!!

There are seventeen and eighteen year olds at secondary school and seventeen and eighteen year olds at college. They have the same level of maturity, but the seventeen and eighteen year olds are forced to go round in knee socks and skirts while their pals in college can wear what they want. THAT is when you see the nonsense of the whole thing.

You can have dress codes in school to avoid skimpy clothing and the like without forcing the kids to wear the kind of clothes they'd never wear in real life.

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Aye but there's a big difference between Teachers, Students, College Students, Fetac, Apprenticeship etc...

In a way for teenagers they have their own dress code which they bounce off each other with (goths vs. dolly birds, emo's vs. jocks (maybe I'm out of touch with these terms!)). Maybe all schools should be celebrating this diversity and teenagers finding their place amongst groups etc. but personally I think 'to hell with that', remove that from the equation and let them worry about it outside school-time.
Easier to decide what to wear every morning.
Easier on parents instead of buying 'wardrobes!!'

What's the difference between a seventeen year old in college and a seventeen year old in school?

Of course it's EASIER to not have to think for yourself in the morning. Should education be about what is easier or about challenging?

As for buying "wardrobes", that's nonsense. The students don't buy "wardrobes" for school or college, they just wear the clothes that are at home in the wardrobes anyway.

Oafley Jones

Kathnora wrote: »

I think that when it comes to 3rd level students gain a bit of sense and they don't try to impress as much with a particular style of dress. 3rd level students seem content to adopt their own uniform of hoody and jeans. At 2nd level it's all about impressing your peers and maybe teachers too! Girls can turn out in very skimpy clothing and it's then I feel that male teachers could have difficulty averting their eyes!!

You could always spot the first year students in college by how they dressed. Always takes a few months for them to not dress up.

Lau2976

katydid wrote: »

There are seventeen and eighteen year olds at secondary school and seventeen and eighteen year olds at college. They have the same level of maturity, but the seventeen and eighteen year olds are forced to go round in knee socks and skirts while their pals in college can wear what they want. THAT is when you see the nonsense of the whole thing.

You can have dress codes in school to avoid skimpy clothing and the like without forcing the kids to wear the kind of clothes they'd never wear in real life.

Your in real life though. When you start working you'll probably have a uniform. They aren't always comfortable and they aren't always attractive but you have to wear them.

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

There are seventeen and eighteen year olds at secondary school and seventeen and eighteen year olds at college. They have the same level of maturity, but the seventeen and eighteen year olds are forced to go round in knee socks and skirts while their pals in college can wear what they want. THAT is when you see the nonsense of the whole thing.

You can have dress codes in school to avoid skimpy clothing and the like without forcing the kids to wear the kind of clothes they'd never wear in real life.

Totally different social dynamic between teenagers in sec school and third level!

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Totally different social dynamic between teenagers in sec school and third level!

How is it different?

katydid

Lau2976 wrote: »

Your in real life though. When you start working you'll probably have a uniform. They aren't always comfortable and they aren't always attractive but you have to wear them.

I'm a teacher. I haven't worn a uniform for forty years except in the course of a voluntary activity I'm involved in, and that's my choice.

If I chose a career where I had to wear a uniform, that would be my choice.
Schoolkids have no choice.

Oafley Jones

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Totally different social dynamic between teenagers in sec school and third level!

Totally. The expectation that they're supposed to be grown ups radically changes things.

katydid

Oafley Jones wrote: »

You could always spot the first year students in college by how they dressed. Always takes a few months for them to not dress up.

Not where I work.

Oafley Jones

katydid wrote: »

Not where I work.

I thought you said you were a teacher. Honestly, you seem incredibly overbearing on this issue. If you send your kid to a school and they've a certain dress code; then respect that. If you don't agree with it take them someplace else. This notion that you're impinging on their right to espression sounds really petulant.

implausible

katydid wrote: »

You can have dress codes in school to avoid skimpy clothing and the like without forcing the kids to wear the kind of clothes they'd never wear in real life.

Or better still, have an easily-enforcible conflict-avoiding dress code: blue jumper, grey shirt, grey trousers, black shoes.

katydid wrote: »

As for buying "wardrobes", that's nonsense. The students don't buy "wardrobes" for school or college, they just wear the clothes that are at home in the wardrobes anyway.

If you are wearing what you want 167 days per year, for 8 hours per day, that's a lot of extra clothes - I'd call it a wardrobe. You are assuming that the students have lots of clothes in the wardrobe. In a DEIS school, this may not be the case, so much so that on non-uniform days they 'forget' and come in in the uniform. In a uniform, the less well off look the same as the kids who have the brands in the wardrobe.

As a parent, I'm delighted to have a uniform for my fella - cheaper, less hassle and predictable.

Lau2976

katydid wrote: »

I'm a teacher. I haven't worn a uniform for forty years except in the course of a voluntary activity I'm involved in, and that's my choice.

If I chose a career where I had to wear a uniform, that would be my choice.
Schoolkids have no choice.

Not every school kid wil become a teacher and even teachers and office workers are expected to dress professionally. And you think someone's gonna avoid a job because the uniform?

Uniforms are a reality of life. As an adult and a child.

katydid

implausible wrote: »

Or better still, have an easily-enforcible conflict-avoiding dress code: blue jumper, grey shirt, grey trousers, black shoes.



If you are wearing what you want 167 days per year, for 8 hours per day, that's a lot of extra clothes - I'd call it a wardrobe. You are assuming that the students have lots of clothes in the wardrobe. In a DEIS school, this may not be the case, so much so that on non-uniform days they 'forget' and come in in the uniform. In a uniform, the less well off look the same as the kids who have the brands in the wardrobe.

As a parent, I'm delighted to have a uniform for my fella - cheaper, less hassle and predictable.

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

When they go home from school they change into the clothes they would have been wearing all day if they could. They don't need any other clothes. My daughter went through eight years of primary school and I just bought her clothes for everyday wear. No big deal. They don't have to have loads of stuff in their wardrobe; one hoodie or pair of jeans is much the same as another.

Of course it's easier for you as a parent if your child has to wear the same thing every day; no arguments in the morning. It is hard when kids have opinions of their own you mightn't always agree with - there were days I had to bite my tongue and not comment on what my daughter decided to wear to school. But it's not my place to dictate to someone else what to wear, any more that it's their place to dictate to me what I should wear.

Mint Aero

http://factmag-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Eton-College-001.jpg Uniforms are a bit naff. Plenty of time for a lot of students to be wearing them in Tesco etc. Schools in Ireland should take more pride and require proper attire like the above. Then the students might have a sense of pride in their education instilled in them.

poster2525

katydid wrote: »

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

Investing in a nice range of nail varnishes might be the best option in these situations!

Lau2976

katydid wrote: »

But WHY have everyone wearing the same colour jumper and trousers? What about the kid that feels like wearing a red jumper one morning because they feel happy and positive and are fed up of blue?

When they go home from school they change into the clothes they would have been wearing all day if they could. They don't need any other clothes. My daughter went through eight years of primary school and I just bought her clothes for everyday wear. No big deal. They don't have to have loads of stuff in their wardrobe; one hoodie or pair of jeans is much the same as another.

Of course it's easier for you as a parent if your child has to wear the same thing every day; no arguments in the morning. It is hard when kids have opinions of their own you mightn't always agree with - there were days I had to bite my tongue and not comment on what my daughter decided to wear to school. But it's not my place to dictate to someone else what to wear, any more that it's their place to dictate to me what I should wear.

But eventually so many regulations will exist that they may as well be wearing a uniform. She's your child, of course you should dictate what you deem appropriate for her to wear.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

Or maybe because young people are not as hung up on these things as we think? How come a seventeen year old can go to college and come in happily ever day to class without any hassle? How can entire classes of seventeen and eighteen year olds get through the whole day without bullying or sniping at each other over what they wear? How come kids in other countries don't make a big deal of it?

I really don't know why I'm responding but here it goes.

I agree with you that young people 17-20 are not as hung up as most people think but we are talking about secondary school here not FE. Yea you can have two 17 year olds in both scenarios but one is part of a secondary school the other is not. The secondary school has to cater for everyone from 12-18 the other does not. Different scenarios.

I think your twenty years away from second level is the difference in my opinion to yours. I'm dealing with hundreds of 12-18 year olds every day. You are not. So my opinion is coming from a slightly different angle to yours.

I agree that I don't think schools should be over the top in terms of exact type of shoes. Girls only in kilts etc. however from my experience of dealing with these teenagers I feel a school uniform is important. Go into McDonald's lifestyle sports etc etc etc people have to wear a uniform. I wear track suits all the time outside school I can't in school tough. My friend loves jeans he can't wear them in school as a teacher. Tough. That's part of life. Hardly the end of the works if your daughter feels like wearing a red jumper today but can't. Bit of a life lesson there.

I do agree with you that 17 year olds in general in my experience in secondary schools could happily not wear a uniform without much hassle but the same cannot be said for 12-16 year olds from my experience. It is difficult for a school to have one rule for 6th years and another for everyone else so in that regard it's just a bit of hard luck on them but for the greater good I feel it's important to keep uniforms but there certainly could be some cop on used in some schools and some cooperation on decisions from the kids when deciding on a uniform.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

I really don't know why I'm responding but here it goes.

I agree with you that young people 17-20 are not as hung up as most people think but we are talking about secondary school here not FE. Yea you can have two 17 year olds in both scenarios but one is part of a secondary school the other is not. The secondary school has to cater for everyone from 12-18 the other does not. Different scenarios.

I think your twenty years away from second level is the difference in my opinion to yours. I'm dealing with hundreds of 12-18 year olds every day. You are not. So my opinion is coming from a slightly different angle to yours.

I agree that I don't think schools should be over the top in terms of exact type of shoes. Girls only in kilts etc. however from my experience of dealing with these teenagers I feel a school uniform is important. Go into McDonald's lifestyle sports etc etc etc people have to wear a uniform. I wear track suits all the time outside school I can't in school tough. My friend loves jeans he can't wear them in school as a teacher. Tough. That's part of life. Hardly the end of the works if your daughter feels like wearing a red jumper today but can't. Bit of a life lesson there.

I do agree with you that 17 year olds in general in my experience in secondary schools could happily not wear a uniform without much hassle but the same cannot be said for 12-16 year olds from my experience. It is difficult for a school to have one rule for 6th years and another for everyone else so in that regard it's just a bit of hard luck on them but for the greater good I feel it's important to keep uniforms but there certainly could be some cop on used in some schools and some cooperation on decisions from the kids when deciding on a uniform.

I still don't understand how a seventeen year old in secondary school is different to a seventeen year old in a FE college. They have the same feelings, same thoughts, same principles. The only difference is that the ones at secondary school haven't experienced the freedom of being able to choose for themselves, so they stick to their comfort zone. It's not all that difficult to have one rule for sixth years and another for the rest of the school. In Newtown school in Waterford, the sixth years don't have to wear the school uniform. It's a special privilege that the students look forward to and value.

I don't think secondary school kids have changed that much in twenty years. They resented being disciplined for having the wrong colour shoes or having to wear a tie then, and they still do.

People who choose to work in McDonalds or as cabin crew or soldiers have to wear a uniform. It is a lifestyle choice. Schoolkids don't have that option.

katydid

Lau2976 wrote: »

But eventually so many regulations will exist that they may as well be wearing a uniform. She's your child, of course you should dictate what you deem appropriate for her to wear.

If she is wearing something inappropriate, certainly. But otherwise it's her choice. I may not like her taste, but it's her taste...