Tractors at rush hour

Lambofdave

cantdecide wrote: »

Outside of the obvious safety aspect can you suggest any ulterior motives I [or anyone else] could have for disliking tractors driving slowly on main thoroughfares at rush hour?

I don't know what goes on in your head nor would I want to as you seem to be very immature maybe thats why you get irate while driving during rush hour.

cantdecide

Lambofdave wrote: »

I don't know what goes on in your head nor would I want to as you seem to be very immature maybe thats why you get irate while driving during rush hour.

Fair enough. Thanks for the input on the topic.

AugustusMinimus

Lambofdave wrote: »

What you have seen is bad drivers not being able to cope with a tractor on the road, the tractor didn't cause the near misses the drivers not driving correctly did.

True. But that doesn't alleviate the fact that this kind of thing happens in real life. You've made no comment on the congestion tractors cause at rush hour.

Lambofdave wrote: »

Two silly questions I may say.


Why would I be walking there, I have a car and tractor and if you knew how much i detested driving the SRR and the city because of the idiots that are on it, you would know I only go there when I have no other choice like all other drivers and i guess tractor drivers.


The SRR isn't a motorway so you question is moot. And besides there is alternative routes like the old main roads instead of the motorways , whats the alternative for the SRR?

Why is it moot. The only difference between the N25 and the M8 is motorway designation. The N25 also has an alternative route. It was the road which the OP was talking about.

And if as you keep saying, that drivers should be able to drive at 120kph without having trouble with tractors, why are ones that can't get to 50kph banned from motorways ?

Lambofdave wrote: »

I live in the real world very much so, it is you that isn't because your focused on one point to suit your argument we can all do that, but the reality is there is no way tractors can be banned from SRR because there is no alternative route for them to go.

So find another hobby horse.

There are alternative routes to the SRR. I also see that your views obviously cannot be without bias. It is fairly obvious to me that in terms of road safety and obvious logic that this bias is clouding your logic.

Sh1tbag OToole

Lambofdave

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

True. But that doesn't alleviate the fact that this kind of thing happens in real life. You've made no comment on the congestion tractors cause at rush hour.

Why do i need to comment on it you have done it enough

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why is it moot. The only difference between the N25 and the M8 is motorway designation. The N25 also has an alternative route. It was the road which the OP was talking about.

motorway designation you answered your own question
It does have an alternative route from the tunnel to cobh cross but you dont have to take it as its a dual carriageway

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

And if as you keep saying, that drivers should be able to drive at 120kph without having trouble with tractors, why are ones that can't get to 50kph banned from motorways ?

why are you confusing motorways with dual carriageways you are not entitled to drive at 120km its a limit does mean you have to, you're supposed to drive with the prevailing conditions

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There are alternative routes to the SRR. I also see that your views obviously cannot be without bias. It is fairly obvious to me that in terms of road safety and obvious logic that this bias is clouding your logic.

Just because i don't agree with you Im bias, you an only child? In terms of road safety you could ban half the people on the roads but then there is reality which you certainly aren't living in.

Padraig Mor

Lambofdave wrote: »

why are you confusing motorways with dual carriageways

The N25 and N40 (SRR) are built to motorway standard, with a 160 km/h design speed. They are motorways in all but name.

you are not entitled to drive at 120km

So, car drivers are not entitled to drive at a legal speed, but tractor drivers are entitled to drive in heavy, high speed traffic - basically, you get to decide who's entitled to do what?

Large vehicle speed differentials on the same road inherently increases the risk of a crash - this is simple fact, regardless of rights, entitlements, etc. This hold true regardless of the vehicles involved (a car travelling at 50 km/h in a field of traffic going at 100+ km/h is as much of a problem as a tractor doing the same speed). I regularly see the traffic chaos caused by tractor drivers in rush hour and wonder whether some of the posters here have actually witnessed this. TBH I don't mind farmers so much - they at least have a proper reason to use a tractor, but it seems to me that many of the tractors I see at rush hour are being run by builders cheaping out on costs by not using a proper lowloader lorry.

Lambofdave

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The N25 and N40 (SRR) are built to motorway standard, with a 160 km/h design speed. They are motorways in all but name.

But still aren't motorways

Padraig Mor wrote: »

So, car drivers are not entitled to drive at a legal speed, but tractor drivers are entitled to drive in heavy, high speed traffic - basically, you get to decide who's entitled to do what?

Is it illegal for then to drive at rush hour? No if you have problem take it up with the department of transport, those who have already decided. I drive in the conditions I find myself in maybe you should too but then I dont expect special privileges against other road users just because Im capable of driving up to the speed limit.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Large vehicle speed differentials on the same road inherently increases the risk of a crash - this is simple fact, regardless of rights, entitlements, etc. This hold true regardless of the vehicles involved (a car travelling at 50 km/h in a field of traffic going at 100+ km/h is as much of a problem as a tractor doing the same speed). I regularly see the traffic chaos caused by tractor drivers in rush hour and wonder whether some of the posters here have actually witnessed this. TBH I don't mind farmers so much - they at least have a proper reason to use a tractor, but it seems to me that many of the tractors I see at rush hour are being run by builders cheaping out on costs by not using a proper lowloader lorry.

We are going around in circles here and while you can complain all you like, there is no legal reason tractors can't be on the road during rush hour. it is only chaos if people can't cope with the conditions they find themselves in, what you are alluding to is tantamount to accidents caused by road rage and the inability of drivers to slow down because of other slower moving vehicles on the road in front of them.

mordeith

Lambofdave wrote: »

you're supposed to drive with the prevailing conditions

Isn't that exactly what slow moving vehicles (be they tractors or otherwise) don't do on dual carriageways where they significantly reduce the average speed in a particular lane?

TINA1984

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The N25 and N40 (SRR) are built to motorway standard, with a 160 km/h design speed. They are motorways in all but name.

I don't believe that's correct. Most of the N40 was built in a piecemeal manner with junction designs, sightlines and lack of H/S in places which wouldn't be of motorway standard in the manner of large sections of the Interurbans would be for instance.

Nonetheless I'd agree that A motorway order for the SRR would be a good idea.

j8wk2feszrnpao

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Can't understand how anyone thinks having tractors or cyclists on the SRR during rush hour is safe. Caused huge traffic congestion and potential pile ups with people stuck behind the tractors trying to pull out into fast traffic.

It's called the over taking lane, not the fast lane.
All that's required is people to know the rules of the road and obey them.

And as I've already stated, I travel that road every day at rush hour(s), and it's rare to encounter a tractor or cyclist. It's the very odd few that I pass, and considering that it's not the longest stretch of road, it's not going to delay people by much.

cantdecide, I don't use a tractor (or vehicle of that type), and I don't cycle that road. So banning them from that road wouldn't affect me.

keithclancy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The N25 and N40 (SRR) are built to motorway standard, with a 160 km/h design speed. They are motorways in all but name.

Who told you that ?

TheChizler

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The N25 and N40 (SRR) are built to motorway standard, with a 160 km/h design speed. They are motorways in all but name.

Except for the decreased sightlines, lack of hard shoulders, narrow median, and non-grade separated junction?

Padraig Mor

Lambofdave wrote: »

But still aren't motorways


Is it illegal for then to drive at rush hour? No if you have problem take it up with the department of transport, those who have already decided. I drive in the conditions I find myself in maybe you should too but then I dont expect special privileges against other road users just because Im capable of driving up to the speed limit.

We are going around in circles here and while you can complain all you like, there is no legal reason tractors can't be on the road during rush hour. it is only chaos if people can't cope with the conditions they find themselves in, what you are alluding to is tantamount to accidents caused by road rage and the inability of drivers to slow down because of other slower moving vehicles on the road in front of them.

I think you rather miss the points that others are making. Nobody is saying that tractors are not entitled to be on those roads. What they are saying is that:
1. Roads of similar construction are routinely labelled as motorways.
2. Other jurisdictions ban tractors from these roads as large speed differentials are inherently unsafe.
so:
3. Tractors should not be allowed on our motorways or motorway equivalent dual carriageways.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them on these roads at quieter times. And referring to "accidents caused by ....the inability of drivers to slow down because of other slower moving vehicles on the road in front of them" also misses the point. The problems caused by tractors at peak times do not result in loads of speeding drivers roaring past the tractor at high speeds - what I routinely witness is a massive tailback (1km+) of slow moving traffic all held up because of one tractor driver. Often, those at the back of the queue cannot even see the tractor and have no idea what the problem is. They act as a rolling roadblock.

TheChizler wrote: »

Except for the decreased sightlines, lack of hard shoulders, narrow median, and non-grade separated junction?

Obviously I'm not talking about the Dunkettle Interchange.

keithclancy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Personally, I don't have a problem with them on these roads at quieter times. And referring to "accidents caused by ....the inability of drivers to slow down because of other slower moving vehicles on the road in front of them" also misses the point. The problems caused by tractors at peak times do not result in loads of speeding drivers roaring past the tractor at high speeds - what I routinely witness is a massive tailback (1km+) of slow moving traffic all held up because of one tractor driver. Often, those at the back of the queue cannot even see the tractor and have no idea what the problem is. They act as a rolling roadblock.

This happens on Motorways anyway without slow moving Vehicles.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7276027/traffic-jam

cantdecide

keithclancy wrote: »

This happens on Motorways anyway without slow moving Vehicles.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7276027/traffic-jam

You're point is unclear. Are you saying tractor at rush hour is all the same because shockwaves happen regardless?

Out of curiosity, are you connected in some way to agriculture and/ or plant & machinery world or are you impartial and unbiased?

ganmo

cantdecide wrote: »

You're point is unclear. Are you saying tractor at rush hour is all the same because shockwaves happen regardless?

Out of curiosity, are you connected in some way to agriculture and/ or plant & machinery world or are you impartial and unbiased?

only people who have driven tractors and cars can see both sides of this argument which is what is necessary to be unbiased.

so cantdecide...massey or deere?

cantdecide

ganmo wrote: »

only people who have driven tractors and cars can see both sides of this argument which is what is necessary to be unbiased!

Turkeys... Christmas

ganmo wrote: »

so cantdecide...massey or deere?

In my Case, I feel a Zetor is better

ganmo

myself tractor driver in dublin, would I drive on the M50 in my big M...no nor would I drive through town.

I've driven most of the main roads in the country(in a car) including SRR, do I like coming up behind a tractor on a fast flowing motorway, If i can see them from a distance its rarely an issue. If there was a time i wouldn't mind being stuck behind one is in slow moving traffic on the m50 or similar.

worst time i was behind a tractor was in mitchelstown him at the stopped at the lights me too close him and he rolls back a tiny bit...eek

hoodwinked

So a tractor driver was fined for driving inconsiderately slow and banned for a year from driving for not paying the fine and not turning up in court, he was backing up vehicles on an N road. Surely this shows that if you do drive at 20km/h on any "N" road you are at fault and will be fined as such,

Maybe now tractors on the N25/40 will take note and be more considerate to causing tailbacks,

After commenting that everybody has to exercise a little consideration on the road, the judge fined McGuinness €300 in his absence and disqualified him from driving for 12 months.

http://www.irishtimes.com/tractor-driver-banned-over-7km-traffic-tailback-1.2177126

TheChizler

hoodwinked wrote: »

So a tractor driver was fined for driving inconsiderately slow and banned for a year from driving for not paying the fine and not turning up in court, he was backing up vehicles on an N road. Surely this shows that if you do drive at 20km/h on any "N" road you are at fault and will be fined as such,

Maybe now tractors on the N25/40 will take note and be more considerate to causing tailbacks,




http://www.irishtimes.com/tractor-driver-banned-over-7km-traffic-tailback-1.2177126

Except the difference here being the presence of an overtaking lane.

twowheelsonly

TheChizler wrote: »

Except the difference here being the presence of an overtaking lane.

An overtaking lane that you can't get into when the roads are busy with faster moving traffic on the outside lane. Hence you're stuck, as is the fella behind you and the fella behind him, and the fella behind him etc, etc... All the while there's 500 yards of empty road in front of the tractor..

I find this a problem more so in the hour approaching the rush hour when the traffic is busy but moving freely rather than when the traffic is pretty much ground to a halt anyway at peak times.

To the guys that support the tractor drivers/are tractor drivers....Would you be quite unperturbed to come up behind some guy travelling at 30kmh or cycling on that road (N40/N25) with no way for you to overtake him or would it frustrate you?

cantdecide

Overtaking lane didn't help this chap...

The lorry driver and a 43-year-old man, thought to be the tractor driver, were both subsequently arrested.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/two-quizzed-following-fatal-smash-in-tyrone-30385642.html

ps passed a tractor with a low loader causing havoc at Cobh Cross this morning at about 8.25 or so. The first thing I thought was 'look at all these idiot drivers who don't know how to overtake properly. Loads of them. Everywhere. Dozens of them. idiots the lot of them'.

j8wk2feszrnpao

twowheelsonly wrote: »

To the guys that support the tractor drivers/are tractor drivers....Would you be quite unperturbed to come up behind some guy travelling at 30kmh or cycling on that road (N40/N25) with no way for you to overtake him or would it frustrate you?

It's nothing to do with supporting tractor drivers; as long as they obey the rules of the road, then they are entitled to drive on those roads.

Frustrate? Not particularly. It's not that long a stretch of road. I drive it each day. It's rare to encounter a tractor. Even rarer to encounter a cyclist (who I've only seen cycle in the hard shoulder). The odd time I've been held up, it's never taken more than a minute to move out and pass.

The case in Castlebar, I've no sympathy for the tractor driver. Failed to pay the fine and failed to appear in court; summed up the type of individual he is.
The case in Tyrone has no details of what occurred.

cantdecide, you clearly have an issue sharing the road with tractors. Not sure if you have some agenda or not, but for someone who asked the question about being "impartial and unbiased", you show neither.

cantdecide

munstermagic11 wrote: »

cantdecide, you clearly have an issue sharing the road with tractors. Not sure if you have some agenda or not, but for someone who asked the question about being "impartial and unbiased", you show neither.

You're 100% right. I'm not impartial. When it comes to sharing the road with tractors at rush hour, to me it's open and shut and nothing I've read has made me reconsider my position (not even the but we're allowed posts). Common sense (or at least common sense from my perspective) tells me it's dangerous each and every time. Other countries view things similarly and have even forbidden it but not us. The laws of the land and clearly the laws of physics must be different in Ireland.

I don't believe anyone has posted a pro-tractor post that could declare that they have no connections with the agriculture and plant/ machinery world past or present. This makes certain suggestions to me.

ganmo

cantdecide wrote: »

You're 100% right. I'm not impartial. When it comes to sharing the road with tractors at rush hour, to me it's open and shut and nothing I've read has made me reconsider my position (not even the but we're allowed posts). Common sense (or at least common sense from my perspective) tells me it's dangerous each and every time. Other countries view things similarly and have even forbidden it but not us.

so what you want are farmers etc to get their work started earlier and later? seeing as though you're so concerned about safety im sure you're aware of the dangers of working long hours

cantdecide wrote: »

The laws of the land and clearly the laws of physics must be different in Ireland.

never hear of magic roads?

cantdecide wrote: »

I don't believe anyone has posted a pro-tractor post that could declare that they have no connections with the agriculture and plant/ machinery world past or present. This makes certain suggestions to me.

argue the point don't invalidate our opinions just because we know what its like to actually drive machinery

cantdecide

ganmo wrote: »

so what you want are farmers etc to get their work started earlier and later? seeing as though you're so concerned about safety im sure you're aware of the dangers of working long hours

Ah now

ganmo wrote: »

never hear of magic roads?

Are they as fun as magic mushrooms?

ganmo wrote: »

argue the point don't invalidate our opinions just because we know what its like to actually drive machinery

So maybe a little Stockholm might creep in? Equally you can't exclude the opinion of other road users.

If I drove to work tomorrow at 45km/h I would have tinnitus from the horn blaring by the time I got to work. Of course I'm entitled to do it and technically there's an overtaking lane but I couldn't deny that it would completely disruptive to traffic at its heaviest....

mordeith

I live in the country and work in the city. If I meet a tractor on the roads around home, which are almost impossible to overtake safely on, I go "ah well, nothing to be done, he won't be going far anyway."
If I'm on my way into or home from work at peak times and there's a tractor on the N25 causing delays I'm like " ah for f***s sake!

j8wk2feszrnpao

cantdecide wrote: »

You're 100% right. I'm not impartial.

Fair enough. I can fully respect that.

cantdecide wrote: »

Common sense (or at least common sense from my perspective) tells me it's dangerous each and every time.

I would suggest that a lack of common sense (and not obeying the rules of the road) leads to dangerous situations.
I've passed a number of accidents on that road, and never once has it involved a tractor. Overtook a lady this morning; she was doing 70kmph at most, while looking at her phone in one hand (that also held the steering wheel) and the other hand held a travel mug. There's bigger safety issues on that road than the odd tractor on it.

cantdecide wrote: »

I don't believe anyone has posted a pro-tractor post that could declare that they have no connections with the agriculture and plant/ machinery world past or present. This makes certain suggestions to me.

I would suggest paranoia :P
If they changed the rules suit your view, it would have zero impact upon me. I just have the view that if they are entitled to use the road, then there isn't an issue.

Shenshen

mordeith wrote: »

I live in the country and work in the city. If I meet a tractor on the roads around home, which are almost impossible to overtake safely on, I go "ah well, nothing to be done, he won't be going far anyway."
If I'm on my way into or home from work at peak times and there's a tractor on the N25 causing delays I'm like " ah for f***s sake!

I'd be very much the same.
I've always attributed to my background - I'm not from Ireland originally, and in my home country tractors would not be allowed on roads with spped limits over 80kph. So I've got no problem with them on a small road, but I do find them irritating and dangerous on dual carriageways with limits of 120kph. I feel that the difference in speed between the tractor and traffic coming up behind is just too great to be considered safe.

SpaceTime

That being said I nearly had a pile up incident yesterday. An old guy doing about 45 in the overtaking lane on the 120kph section of the N25 and he was getting angry with people who were flashing at him and actually belligerently driving slower! This wasn't a tractor.

All of the traffic was undertaking him in the left lane.