Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

PTH2009

KevIRL wrote: »

Dublin will be missing Cuala players for the game this day week

Good news for us. Also good that all our lads got through the Fitzgibbon weekend uninjured

Looking forward to next Saturday and hopefully we put a side eager to win

PTH2009

Wex 1-3- Wat 0-6 HT

Wexford playing into a strong wind in the second half

match on South east fm

KevIRL

PTH2009 wrote: »

Wex 1-3- Wat 0-6 HT

Wexford playing into a strong wind in the second half

match on South east fm

Other way around I believe. Wexford have the wind advantage next half

KevIRL

Wex 1-9 Wat 0-10 FT

PTH2009

Wexford 1-9- Waterford 0-10 full time

3ships

Wat 11 wex 4 ht hurling according to wex gaa twitter

3ships

No more tweets from wexford so Waterford must have won

Dublin Dave 2014

Anyone attend the hurling challenge v Wexford ?

IanVW

Taking this from hogan stand site. Score was 0-22 1-13

Was at the game.Waterford deserved their win and taught us a lesson on how to use the sweeper properly. Waterford had a lot stronger team than wexfotd. They had 10 to 12 first team regulars by the end of the game on the pitch. Wexford team that started. Oliver o Leary, Andrew Kenny, Willie devereux, eoin Conroy, shane o Gorman, Aaron maddock, Anthony roche, eanna martin, Damien reck, Kevin Foley, Jack guiney, David Dunne, cathal Dunbar, Gary more , Nicky kirwan. Subs liam Ryan cane on fir devereux after 20 min. Podge Doran for kirwan, Harry kehoe fir liam Ryan at half time, Jack o Connor for Roche

Giveitfong

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final. This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

And what does he do? Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers. This is sheer lunacy. A couple of examples of what ensued:

In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth. When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing. Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed. James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half. Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two. Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal. In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up. A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards. The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards. To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield. You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark. Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way. Dublin and Cork also try to do this.

Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards. This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball. They also win All-Irelands.

Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability. However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages. In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light. Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on. Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think. Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30. Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny. It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row. Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level. If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10). Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny. The full tally of player possessions is given below.

Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute. His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal. This was a player with the number 15 on his back. It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath. In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year. Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured. In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points. He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett). He deserves better.

One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

robopaddy2

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

 Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final.  This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

 And what does he do?  Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers.  This is sheer lunacy.  A couple of examples of what ensued:

 In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth.  When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

 In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing.  Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed.  James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line.  Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

 James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half.  Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two.  Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

 By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal.  In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up.  A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards.  The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards.  To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

 An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield.  You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark.  Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way.  Dublin and Cork also try to do this.  

 Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards.  This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball.  They also win All-Irelands.

 Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability.  However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages.  In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

 One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light.  Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on.  Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

 Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think.  Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30.  Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

 And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny.  It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row.  Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level.  If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

 Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10).  Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny.  The full tally of player possessions is given below.

 Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute.  His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal.  This was a player with the number 15 on his back.  It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

 It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath.  In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year.  Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured.  In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points.  He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett).  He deserves better.

 One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

 Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

Very interesting stuff Giveitfon. Good that you back your opinions up with hard solid facts. Not enough of that on here.

Deise_2012

That is true, he does back himself very well with facts but I think it's too early to judge Mcgrath on this season's tactics...I mean he's still missing a few lads, I really do think he's not showing the full deck yet and I don't think we're gonna see it in this years league. He's not a fool, he knows well that the lads he has are more than ready to play an orthodox system. We've performed well in the league the last 2 years but just couldn't get past the semi final in August.....so what if we don't perform in March/April this year as long as we get the job done in August/September

I just think it's absolutely useless complaining about tactics already...wait until June, if we're still doing this one man ff line then, I'll be the first to admit we're playing the totally wrong style. He saw how we performed in the first game against KK last August....that's not just gone out of his head altogether...I like Mcgrath, the lads seem to respect him a lot...I'm not saying a word til we get to Championship time. But I believe he's going about things the right way, just be patient lads!

hardybuck

Giveitfong is probably one of the most respected and valuable posters on this thread. Thanks so much for your ongoing analysis, but I'd like to pick up on one of your main KPIs that you're very focused on - possessions.

Possessions gives you some indication of how busy a player is, but what the player does with that possession is much more relevant in my opinion.


How many times does a player get turned over in possession? How many turnovers did they make themselves? How many times to they make complete v incomplete passes? How many possession result in a score?

So, I think some of your points have relevance, e.g. Devine's first second half possession in the 70th minute definitely tells you something. But I don't think it's fair to say that de Burca is the best performer because he touched the ball 17 times. His 17 possessions potential could have led to a lot of Tipperary scores for example.

mountgomery burns

We literally could not have been closer to winning back to back league titles under McGrath. That would have doubled the total number of leagues we had previously won. That doesn't happen if your manager is conpletely clueless at inter county level.

Giveitfongs analysis is very detailed, far too detailed for a league match in February. Over analysis I would call it.

TheScoringGoal

I think the analysis is extremely interesting and league game or not I always enjoy it. I stand open to correction, but I think the possessions are to be viewed as their own stat and not as a performance rating? As I would agree that Tadgh De Burca won some good ball but used it poorly. The lack of forwards may have been an issue for him.

I would disagree on waterfords transition into attack being weak, I'd say the opposite. Waterford are normally good at scoring after winning possession and moving the ball quickly. While Jamie Barron was a massive loss in this regard, Gavin O Brien and Shane McNulty were both involved in this type of play.

I'd hope that there was a touch of keeping our powder dry as we set up extremely defensively. As another poster said, I'd rather judge later in the year.

One concern I would have is the form of some of our players. To be fair to Shane Bennett I can't remember when he would have last had a break between club, college and county. I'd like to see him sit out a couple of games and bring him back in. I wasn't too disappointed with Austin Gleeson. He won some good ball, although he had a few wides. I'd rather him do that than not win the ball at this time of year. Paidi Mahony has also had a quiet start to the year outside of frees.

I've been a fan of O Halloran since 2008(?) when he burned players for the minors in Walsh park against Cork before being bizzarely substituted. I'd hope he gets his chance this year but I'm not sure you can play him Shane Bennett and Colin Dunford in the same side.

PTH2009

If we lose Saturday than were going down a tough road, Even if we lose and then beat Cork the next week it still may not be enough as Ennis is a tough place too get result and Clare may need to win that game too

R3
Dublin vs Waterford
Kilkenny vs Cork
Tipperary vs Clare

expect Kilkenny too try and make a point vs Cork but Cork have too prove something too. Tipp could aim too win this game too deff secure there QF

R4 (Sat 11/Sun 12 Mar)
Tipperary vs Kilkenny
Waterford vs Cork
Clare vs Dublin

R5 (Sun 26 Mar)
Clare vs Waterford
Dublin vs Kilkenny
Cork vs Tipperary

Finishing 1st in 1A means an easy QF against either Kerry or Laois
2nd/3rd/4th 1A means a harder QF against either Limerick/Galway or Wexford. Wexford look to have 1st place in 1B secured

robopaddy2

Deise_2012 wrote: »

That is true, he does back himself very well with facts but I think it's too early to judge Mcgrath on this season's tactics...I mean he's still missing a few lads, I really do think he's not showing the full deck yet and I don't think we're gonna see it in this years league. He's not a fool, he knows well that the lads he has are more than ready to play an orthodox system. We've performed well in the league the last 2 years but just couldn't get past the semi final in August.....so what if we don't perform in March/April this year as long as we get the job done in August/September

I just think it's absolutely useless complaining about tactics already...wait until June, if we're still doing this one man ff line then, I'll be the first to admit we're playing the totally wrong style. He saw how we performed in the first game against KK last August....that's not just gone out of his head altogether...I like Mcgrath, the lads seem to respect him a lot...I'm not saying a word til we get to Championship time. But I believe he's going about things the right way, just be patient lads!

I'd admire your optimism. But I think how were setting up now is a fair indicator of how we'll set up in the championship. I think we'll see more of the same. That first game against KK last year people forget we didn't exactly go toe to toe with them. The vast majority of our scores would have come from way out the field. We crowded the middle third and outfought them in those areas. Not forgetting Austin Gleeson was just in-sane that day. It was one of the few big days the system actually clicked for us, but we still didn't have it in the tank to see it out. We hit a rake of wides that day too, which comes with the territory of the type of game we play. You might see us a little bit more orthodox at certain stages, but the sweeper and a vacant full forward line is here to stay, as long as McGrath is in charge anyway. The question is whether there is another level to it that we haven't seen yet, and whether it can take us any further than we already have.

tomwaterford

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I'd admire your optimism. But I think how were setting up now is a fair indicator of how we'll set up in the championship. I think we'll see more of the same. That first game against KK last year people forget we didn't exactly go toe to toe with them. The vast majority of our scores would have come from way out the field. We crowded the middle third and outfought them in those areas. Not forgetting Austin Gleeson was just in-sane that day. It was one of the few big days the system actually clicked for us, but we still didn't have it in the tank to see it out. We hit a rake of wides that day too, which comes with the territory of the type of game we play. You might see us a little bit more orthodox at certain stages, but the sweeper and a vacant full forward line is here to stay, as long as McGrath is in charge anyway. The question is whether there is another level to it that we haven't seen yet, and whether it can take us any further than we already have.

Waterford played with varying between 4 and 6 forwards v kk the first day???
As opposed the 1 man forward rubbish they attempted in the munster final



The fact the scores came from the middle thrid surly comes from the fact they targeted the kk half back and midfield??

robopaddy2

tomwaterford wrote: »

Waterford played with varying between 4 and 6 forwards v kk the first day???
As opposed the 1 man forward rubbish they attempted in the munster final



The fact the scores came from the middle thrid surly comes from the fact they targeted the kk half back and midfield??

I never said we didn't... but how many scores came from inside forward line? very few if I remember. Did we even come close to scoring a goal that day?

tomwaterford

robopaddy2 wrote: »

I never said we didn't...

You said we didnt exactly gp toe to toe with them....when its patently unture (particulary compared to the game plan last day)?


I had great optimism after them two games last year that we were going to push on and play to our strengths this year....

but tbh...im somewhat disillusioned by what ive seen now


TBH i think weve gone as far as we can with this system...its not as if we havnt the players to push on and put up big scores/exploit space of a more expansive game style

robopaddy2

tomwaterford wrote: »

You said we didnt exactly gp toe to toe with them....when its patently unture (particulary compared to the game plan last day)?


I had great optimism after them two games last year that we were going to push on and play to our strengths this year....

but tbh...im somewhat disillusioned by what ive seen now


TBH i think weve gone as far as we can with this system...its not as if we havnt the players to push on and put up big scores/exploit space of a more expansive game style

Fair enough, but there's a bit of a myth about that game (and the subsequent game) that we hurled with free spirit and abandon, maybe in comparison to some of the other performances but it was still very structured. Bottom line is we weren't good enough to get over the line over those 2 games.
I totally agree about the system aswell, I also believe its only going to get us so far.  I cannot see how we can beat Tipp this year, maybe Kilkenny we might eventually be able to get past them as they do not have the quality they once had, but Tipp, with the quality of their forwards, the open gameplan they deploy, they made a mockery of our defensive system last year. They are a team we need to go toe-to-toe with. Its a pity because I feel after Tipp, we have the most talented group of forwards in the country. The like of Gleeson, Mahony, Shanahan, Curran, 2 Bennetts, O'Halloran, Dunford, Dillon, mikey Kearney etc,  throw in the likes of Moran, Brick, Devine, DJ Foran, monsters of men whoule would run through walls. , we have incredible options. We should have a lethal forward line that defences should fear. Not a non-existent one

cul beag

The most skillful game in the world and McGrath has dragged it down to a mixture of rugby and gaelic football played with sticks. We have the nucleus of a fantastic side if the proper players are chosen and left play more naturally and freely instead of being tied to defensive sh**e that was ripped apart by Tipp last year. I'm fed up of saying that he has brought this wonderful game of ours into disrepute with the tactics he employs instead of utilising the RIGHT players in a system that sees us going for the juggler in a more positive approach. The fact that it's still being discussed 3 YEARS after he implemented it tells us all we need to know about its failings. So far in this time we have seen the rucking and mauling lead us to one national title in winter months and nothing else. That alone should tell you that in the heat of championship in summer months this tripe doesn't work. But as long as we are competitive as he says and these lads are given time to develop it's fine and it buys him more time to destroy these naturally gifted hurlers. You don't see Michael Ryan in Tipp destroying Callinane,Bubbles and McGrath by sending them back to their own 45 metre line with scrum caps and telling them to create a maul and drive forward from there! Die with your boots on instead of hiding behind the wall waiting for the inevitable to happen anyway!

JesusRef

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s defeat to Tipperary in last week’s National Hurling League game has demonstrated more forcibly than ever that Derek McGrath is not at the races as a senior intercounty manager.

Waterford were playing at home, before a large and potentially enthusiastic crowd, playing with a strong wind in the first half against a Tipperary team with just six of the players who started last year’s All-Ireland final. This was a perfect opportunity both to lay down a marker against Tipp and gain the victory that would secure our Division IA place for next year.

And what does he do? Once again, he decides to withdraw all but one of his players out the field, leaving Shane Bennett to battle it out alone against two markers. This is sheer lunacy. A couple of examples of what ensued:

In the 16th minute, Conor Gleeson picked up a loose ball in the Waterford half back line and sent a long ball into the Tipperary goalmouth. When he hit the ball, there was not a single Waterford player inside the Tipperary 65 metre line.

In the 33rd minute, Shane Fives hit a long ball from defence up the left wing. Shane Bennett (as usual) was the only Waterford player inside the Tipperary 45 metre line and was nowhere near where the ball landed. James Barry came out to collect the ball and drive it back into the Waterford half where Shane McNulty gathered and hit a long crossfield ball to the right wing with Bennett still the only Waterford player inside the 45 metre line. Bennett came out to the ball but lost possession to his dual markers with James Barry again effecting the clearance.

James Barry and Donagh Maher were the players who double-marked Bennett in the first half. Between them they got twelve possessions in that half; Bennett only got two. Waterford are going nowhere with a game plan where – even playing with the wind – they only have one forward consistently operating inside the 45 metre line and he gets two possessions in 36 minutes of hurling.

By contrast, even playing against the wind in the first half, Tipperary always kept two players close to the Waterford goal. In the All-Ireland final last year they played three full forwards from start to finish and won pulling up. A poster here has said that Waterford don’t have scoring forwards. The problem is that Waterford don’t have any forwards. To be more accurate they have one forward most of the time and no forward some of the time.

An even bigger problem than McGrath’s defensive formation is the fact that he has no system to create scoring opportunities when Waterford win the ball in defence or midfield. You can see the way Clare use pop passes and support runners to bring the ball out of defence and create openings to shoot for points from around the 50 metres mark. Tony Kelly gets a lot of scores this way. Dublin and Cork also try to do this.

Waterford do manage to get some scores from out the field, but too often they just give away hard-won possession by hitting long balls to no one in particular or to double-marked forwards. This has been the case since McGrath took over the Waterford job. Tipperary and Kilkenny, of course, just focus on getting early ball into the full forwards whom they know will be there and who are able to win their own ball. They also win All-Irelands.

Throughout McGrath’s period in charge, Waterford have been able to make up for the deficiencies of their defensive system on many occasions through sheer hard work and commitment, thereby containing their opponents’ scoring ability. However, this is never going to work in the championship where they will be matched for commitment as one gets to the closing stages. In this situation they need to score more than their opponents, and you need forwards to do this.

One would have thought that last year’s semi-final in Croke Park would have shown McGrath the light. Playing a relatively orthodox formation, Waterford got into a winning position only to throw it away by withdrawing into defence late on. Two weeks ago in Nowlan Park, Waterford again dominated the game for 45 minutes playing an orthodox formation, but suddenly switched into defensive mode and only managed to win in the end due to Kilkenny’s poor shooting.

Despite all this, last week’s game in Walsh Park was not nearly as one-sided as some people seem to think. Tipperary just edged the possession count by 143-135 and the shots at goal count by 34-30. Admittedly, Tipp hit a series of sloppy late wides when they had the game in the bag, but were it not for Austin Gleeson’s (first half) and Shane Bennett’s (second half) series of terrible wides, the game could have gone down to the wire.

And this was without Waterford bringing the same intensity to bear as they had the previous week against Kilkenny. It may be that Waterford were unable to reach the same level of intensity two weeks in a row. Or perhaps the players took on board Derek McGrath’s repeated – and ridiculous – assertion that Waterford are currently not up to Tipperary’s level. If Waterford had upped their intensity, or even used a couple of more forwards, they could well have won this game and sent their supporters home happy, rather than frustrated and despondent, as was the case last Sunday.

Not surprisingly, Tadhg de Búrca was Waterford’s top performer with 17 possessions (the same as against Kilkenny), followed by Austin Gleeson (13), Kevin Moran (11) and Conor Gleeson (10). Contrary to what appears to be a common view, Moran put in quite a good shift, especially in the first half, and had more possessions than against Kilkenny. The full tally of player possessions is given below.

Jake Dillon got his first possession in the 23rd minute. His second, a minute later, was 35 metres from his own goal. This was a player with the number 15 on his back. It is hard to fathom what his role is supposed to be in Derek McGrath’s game plan but it is rarely effective.

It is also difficult to figure out what Brian O’Halloran has to do to get a start from McGrath. In my recollection, he has always made an impact when introduced over the last year. Last Sunday he was only brought on when Colin Dunford, who had previously replaced Gavin O’Brien (who did well in the first half with seven possessions), got injured. In just eleven minutes on the pitch he managed seven possessions, including three shots at goal and two points. He has the priceless facility (which Jake Dillon doesn’t) to get on the ball, has skill and pace and protects the ball well when he runs with it (which cannot be said of Shane Bennett). He deserves better.

One final fact: Tom Devine’s first possession in the second half came in the 70th minute, which means he played 35 minutes without getting on the ball once.

Possession count: Regan, I (3); Fives S (7); Coughlan B (2); Connors N (7); Gleeson C (10); de Búrca T (17); McNulty S (6); O’Brien G (8); Moran K (11); Kearney M (8); Mahony P (6); Gleeson A (13); Bennett Shane (8); Devine T (9); Dillon J (6); Lyons D (3); Bennett Stephen (1); Dunford C (1); O’Halloran B (7); Shanahan M (2).

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

tomwaterford

JesusRef wrote: »

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

Practice makes perfect?


Why not have tried out the plan for 40 mins or so and see will it work?

It's a bit naive to build your whole year around a certain gameplan and not try it out beforehand?



I was genuinely looking forward to this league after the 2 semis last year v kk....taught Ya, fcuk it....we'll push on,use the skill set of players we have at our disposal and possibly make the games enjoyable


Do yoy think he's gettin the most out the players he has at his disposal.....do you think they are playing to the strong points of the team


There's no reason a half forward line of mahoney, shane Bennett and maurices shanahan couldn't at least break even with the tipp half back line?




We only had to look at the munster final last year where tipp just simply by passed the congestion of midfield to see that the way to destroy the system was astonishing in its simplicity

Fred C Dobbs

Agree with previous comments regarding Brian O'Halloran (re Tipp match) ; even allowing for fact that the game was breaking up when he came on, he showed plenty of energy in showing for the ball and took his scores well. Indeed, what does he have to do to start a match. 
With the biggest crowd in the 'sports field' for many a day, that match was diabolical, definitely not helped by the length of the grass. The possession stats can be misleading, as someone else pointed (there was one player in particular who got plenty of possession but fumbled with it or lost possession more often than not). 
Croke Park this Saturday should be a good occasion (you never get tired of going to see Waterford play there) ; at least the grass will be shorter than the last day ; pity the Cuala lads are not available as that would ensure a sterner test and truer measure of where we are.

tomwaterford

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Agree with previous comments regarding Brian O'Halloran (re Tipp match) ; even allowing for fact that the game was breaking up when he came on, he showed plenty of energy in showing for the ball and took his scores well. Indeed, what does he have to do to start a match. 
With the biggest crowd in the 'sports field' for many a day, that match was diabolical, definitely not helped by the length of the grass. The possession stats can be misleading, as someone else pointed (there was one player in particular who got plenty of possession but fumbled with it or lost possession more often than not). 
Croke Park this Saturday should be a good occasion (you never get tired of going to see Waterford play there) ; at least the grass will be shorter than the last day ; pity the Cuala lads are not available as that would ensure a sterner test and truer measure of where we are.

Would we be correct in saying waterford seniors havnt won in croke park sInce 08?

Be good to stop that monkey from building

JesusRef

tomwaterford wrote: »

Practice makes perfect?


Why not have tried out the plan for 40 mins or so and see will it work?

It's a bit naive to build your whole year around a certain gameplan and not try it out beforehand?



I was genuinely looking forward to this league after the 2 semis last year v kk....taught Ya, fcuk it....we'll push on,use the skill set of players we have at our disposal and possibly make the games enjoyable


Do yoy think he's gettin the most out the players he has at his disposal.....do you think they are playing to the strong points of the team


There's no reason a half forward line of mahoney, shane Bennett and maurices shanahan couldn't at least break even with the tipp half back line?




We only had to look at the munster final last year where tipp just simply by passed the congestion of midfield to see that the way to destroy the system was astonishing in its simplicity

We made the last 2 league finals, winning one - we were probably the fittest team in the country in April both times, whats the point in doing that again?

I would be saying dont invest much in the league this time around, be at you best for 6-7 months time

PTH2009

JesusRef wrote: »

We made the last 2 league finals, winning one - we were probably the fittest team in the country in April both times, whats the point in doing that again?

I would be saying dont invest much in the league this time around, be at you best for 6-7 months time

Creates a winning mentality. Fair play to the lads to be fully fit so early in the season I'd be gone after 1 training session I'd say lol

Next year the season will only be from Jan-Aug (normally is bar 2 teams) meaning the league will be run off a lot quicker and less time too experiment

hurler on de ditch

JesusRef wrote: »

If McGrath does have a plan to beat Tipp, or if he is to try somwthing different this year, why would he be doing it in February?

Jesus wept

enoughtaken

Could see us having a strong team out Saturday. Would like to see Brian O'Halloran given the full match. Interesting to see who will be in goal. We should be to strong for the dubs. Nice to able to play in Croke Park and I think it's important we get the win.