How do we judge this Fine Gael government?

LeeMajors

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No they weren't.
If people were prepared to accept pain then there would have been no rise is the support for the populist clap trap that the likes of SF dole out.
No matter what is done people will never be pleased.
This govt has carried out reforms, they tried to abolish the upper house, they done away with a lot of local councils, they have tightened up on waste in the public sector and welfare fraud.
But of course it will never be enough for some.

And I don't think that they are just doing what FF would have done.
One thing that was a constant in the GE was FFs insistence that the terms of the bailout could not be changed.
Since then the interest rates, term of the loans, and the promissory notes have all been changed.
FF would not even have tried to get any of the above concessions

Hmmmmm

Godge

ardmacha wrote: »

The question is, what has the present government done that a FF government under the Troika would not have done?
Not a great deal, I would say.

For a start, the FF government was about to cut the minimum wage by €1, this government did not do so.

Do you want more?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

joe912

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'd give them a 'C minus' grade.

- Budgetary recovery is fine, but dealt disproportionate harm due to Labour.

- Tax policy is fine imo.

- PS reform, minuscule, thanks to labour.

- Political reform, good considering the zero amount that went before it.
Senate abolishment
Children's court
Giving real power to oireachtas committees.
Reducing size of Dáil
Judges pay.
Reducing councillors by several hundred.
SSM/protection of life..... bill.

Some succeeded, some the people voted down, but the intention deserves credit..... FG still pathologically addicted to cute hoorism though.


Others:
Defence..... For all the hate he got, Shatter did actually give a sh*t about the brief, they have left things in better nick than they found it.
Hopefully the procurement of an MPV for the navy & expanded missions in the gulf of Aden will expand the scope of our DF.

Environment.... Aside from the long awaited septic tank initiative & IW, not good.....

Agriculture..... Good, Coveny proved an able negotiator with the EU.

Education.... No difference really... Stasis.

Transport: poor.... Labour protecting sacred cows devastated unnecessarily the capital investment budget.....

Health.... No change really,
still underfunded.... Likely to remain same for a while.

Jobs: pretty good but appears to be trailing off slightly.

presumably this is vetted by senior members of finegael first. you are saying that the country has been ruined by labour and that if finegael had been allowed to carry out all the terms agreed by fianna fail and the troika the country would be a better place.

joe912

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No they weren't.
If people were prepared to accept pain then there would have been no rise is the support for the populist clap trap that the likes of SF dole out.
No matter what is done people will never be pleased.
This govt has carried out reforms, they tried to abolish the upper house, they done away with a lot of local councils, they have tightened up on waste in the public sector and welfare fraud.
But of course it will never be enough for some.

And I don't think that they are just doing what FF would have done.
One thing that was a constant in the GE was FFs insistence that the terms of the bailout could not be changed.
Since then the interest rates, term of the loans, and the promissory notes have all been changed.
FF would not even have tried to get any of the above concessions

leo varadker (f.g) not another red cent
enda Kenny (f.g) we never asked for a write down

LeeMajors

joe912 wrote: »

leo varadker (f.g) not another red cent
enda Kenny (f.g) we never asked for a write down

Ah, but if you put the two of them together you get 'we never asked for a write down, not another red cent'

And that's what happened.

joe912

Godge wrote: »

For a start, the FF government was about to cut the minimum wage by €1, this government did not do so.

Do you want more?

You are right those on job bridge took a much bigger hit.

Good loser

howiya wrote: »

People voted to change the government. Change doesn't have to be a move from far right to far left. Often the difference is the detail.

Enda Kenny and others in FG talked about a change in culture. That's what people voted for. It's clearly yet to happen. I'm sure the Labour manifesto talked about the same but the topic here is Fine Gael.

The events of 2010/2011 brought about a whole new interest in Irish politics, many of whom would have been far too young to remember FG in government. You can argue that the electorate was naive but its certainly not a cop out. People are right to ask questions about broken election promises.

Imo only the naive, the pedantic and the gullible.

Remember Sean Lemass - fifty years in politics and onetime Taoiseach; he said promises should be cancelled as soon as the election was over. He was a practical man.

I voted FF in the last election for balance - knowing full well FG/LAB were going to run away with it. Had no interest in manifestoes, pledges, promises and all that shyte.

hfallada

LeeMajors wrote: »

FG's budgets since they took office have been regressive.

The ESRI have done studies on this and shown how FG budgets hit the poorest in the country the most.

Like Robin Hood in reverse as someone once put it.

http://www.socialjustice.ie/content/budget/2015/esri-report-confirms-budget-2015-regressive

They have been mildly regressive. Its hard to agree that the 'high-income earners' havent been hit hard with tax. USC has a marginal rate of 8% on high income earners(while if you earn under 12k, there is zero USC). The Government abolished the PRSI ceiling, which has also destroyed high income earners. If you earn €300k a year, you get the same pension as someone earning €15k a year. While the person on €15k a year will have paid little or no PRSI(their employer pays a bit). Also CGT is now 33% from 20%.The wealthy tend to make most of their income from the sale of assets.

The budget were probably regressive as the Government was getting rid of some of the excessive budget give aways from FF eg the Christmas bonuses, fuel bonuses. The budgets have had minimal impact on incomes of OAPs. I believe the 'high income earners' have suffered the most from FG budget policies

LeeMajors

hfallada wrote: »

http://www.socialjustice.ie/content/budget/2015/esri-report-confirms-budget-2015-regressive

They have been mildly regressive. Its hard to agree that the 'high-income earners' havent been hit hard with tax. USC has a marginal rate of 8% on high income earners(while if you earn under 12k, there is zero USC). The Government abolished the PRSI ceiling, which has also destroyed high income earners. If you earn €300k a year, you get the same pension as someone earning €15k a year. While the person on €15k a year will have paid little or no PRSI(their employer pays a bit). Also CGT is now 33% from 20%.The wealthy tend to make most of their income from the sale of assets.

The budget were probably regressive as the Government was getting rid of some of the excessive budget give aways from FF eg the Christmas bonuses, fuel bonuses. The budgets have had minimal impact on incomes of OAPs. I believe the 'high income earners' have suffered the most from FG budget policies

Regressive nonetheless, as in affecting the less well off the most.
And that report is in reference to to the 2015 budget.
FG have now inflicted 4 regressive budgets since 2011.

LeeMajors

Phoebas wrote: »

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

The economic recovery that's mainly in the Dublin area, according to The Nevin Economic Research Institute?

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CFcQqQIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Feconomy%2Feconomic-recovery-almost-exclusively-concentrated-around-dublin-1.2144575&ei=uzENVcjZH4aBU6DQgfgN&usg=AFQjCNEXs0AVfrft3q45cIr-Ks7qX8Xg7g

There is some recovery elsewhere ok, but I wouldn't be over-egging the pudding just yet......

LeeMajors

Ah yes, begging in Europe to be allowed buy the electorate back home....
How very, very FFailish.

http://iti.ms/1MWY5C5

frankbrett

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ah yes, begging in Europe to be allowed buy the electorate back home....
How very, very FFailish.

http://iti.ms/1MWY5C5

Ha, a few successive posts from yourself bemoaning harsh budgets and not standing up to the EU followed by a post giving out about begging the EU to allow the government to offer a giveaway budget.

Incidentally, I don't think a giveaway budget is a good idea.

LeeMajors

frankbrett wrote: »

Ha, a few successive posts from yourself bemoaning harsh budgets and not standing up to the EU followed by a post giving out about begging the EU to allow the government to offer a giveaway budget.

Incidentally, I don't think a giveaway budget is a good idea.

Ha.
There's a difference between standing up to the EU and FG begging them to allow them buy the electorate.

BTW, it's March so how can kenny start talking about tax cuts etc when the exchequer figures needed to frame a budget aren't available?

Let the vote buying commence and the shallowness of Paddy come to the fore once again.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ah yes, begging in Europe to be allowed buy the electorate back home....
How very, very FFailish.

http://iti.ms/1MWY5C5

Oh look


I see the Irish times is back in favour again, it never ceases to amaze me how people can one day claim that articles from the Irish Times or Independent cannot be trusted as they are (pro FG/FF/LAB) productions yet will then (with no sense of irony whatsoever) go on to link articles from those papers when it paints their position in a good light. Seriously lads make up your minds will ya because the hypocrisy is laughable at this stage.:rolleyes:

frankbrett

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ha.
There's a difference between standing up to the EU and FG begging them to allow them buy the electorate.

BTW, it's March so how can kenny start talking about tax cuts etc when the exchequer figures needed to frame a budget aren't available?

Let the vote buying commence and the shallowness of Paddy come to the fore once again.

There are different ways to deal with the EU. The Syrzia method, which you favour, which has been an unmitigated disaster or the Irish way, of cooperation and Gradual easing of terms over a period of time. You may have heard that €18bn of IMF loans have now been repaid and rolled into low yielding government bonds, saving €1.5bn, part of that financed by proceeds from the BOI sale.

As I said, I don't think a giveaway budget is a good idea but it is inevitable in the last year of an a Irish electoral cycle as its proven that paddy can be bought. After many years of opponents of Kenny slinging mud about austerity, if he has any fiscal ammunition to fight back, and given exchequer returns have been impressive and QE and low bond yields are bringing down debt service cost he has, then it would be incredibly politically naive to offer anything other than a giveaway budget.

Paddy's fickleness when it comes to his pocket can't be decried if he swings back to establishment parties on the one hand while simultaneously claiming that the rise of the left during 'austerity' was due to anything ideological and not simply anger that his pocket was depleted.

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ninja edit.
Very good.

What is it with you lads and your obsession with the newspapers people read?

Would you like me to get you a different source for enda's begging?

Is that it, it's the messenger not the actual message that you have a problem with?

Either way, isn't this jawgap's line you're trotting out?

Ninja edit?


Clearly states underneath that I have edited,


You on the other hand deleted your post :rolleyes:


Couldn't care less what you read I just find the hypocrisy laughable as SF supporters flip flop between slating the "Endapendent" and the Irish Times and 5 minutes later are quoting from those same sources.

LeeMajors

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ninja edit?


Clearly states underneath that I have edited,


You on the other hand deleted your post :rolleyes:

Yes,

Timberrrrrrrr

LeeMajors wrote: »

Yes, I couldn't be arsed to be honest.

Or you realized where you were posting

I find it best here to converse with posters who are capable of forming their
own opinions and don't rely on others to provide their views for them.

Oh I am more than able to form my own opinions, I just don't do it in a hypocritical fashion by slating a source in one post and then quoting that source in the next.

I'll use whatever source I decide to use in my posts here and won't be told by you or anyone else which source to use. You're not a mod yet.

No one is telling you what sources to use, i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of a certain group of posters when it comes to quoting sources.

<snip>

Banjo String

frankbrett wrote: »

Ha, a few successive posts from yourself bemoaning harsh budgets and not standing up to the EU followed by a post giving out about begging the EU to allow the government to offer a giveaway budget.

Incidentally, I don't think a giveaway budget is a good idea.

You have to admit, Noonan begging for some relaxing of rules he helped draft up is a bit sad tbh.

micosoft

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ha.
There's a difference between standing up to the EU and FG begging them to allow them buy the electorate.

The difference being that you perceive every possible action that FG do in Europe as begging regardless of what is actually happening (or despite).

Meanwhile in the real world the Govt. is getting results by working with our European partners, not against them.

Greece is now providing the evidence that people like you destroy countries. Luckily your opinion is a tiny minority in this country and ignored by the majority of our politicians. This will be even more so over the next couple of months.

For Reals

micosoft wrote: »

The difference being that you perceive every possible action that FG do in Europe as begging regardless of what is actually happening (or despite).

Meanwhile in the real world the Govt. is getting results by working with our European partners, not against them.

Greece is now providing the evidence that people like you destroy countries. Luckily your opinion is a tiny minority in this country and ignored by the majority of our politicians. This will be even more so over the next couple of months.

Our European 'partners' are a Cash for Gold operation. They are not our friends. They are loaning us money to keep their system intact. A system which doesn't work for common people as proven time and time again. But sure 'We took one for the team' as Noonan quipped with a wink and a smile.

Good loser

For Reals wrote: »

Our European 'partners' are a Cash for Gold operation. They are not our friends. They are loaning us money to keep their system intact. A system which doesn't work for common people as proven time and time again. But sure 'We took one for the team' as Noonan quipped with a wink and a smile.

Ever the conspiracist!

Surely they only loan us money if we ask for it, so it is in our 'interest' to get it.

Are there not as many 'common people' in those countries as here. The 'common people' in Germany think we are robbing them!

jank

There are 3 things that matter to me when this government took over.

The economy.
Political reform
Public Sector reform

They have done well regarding the economy. They have held firm regarding corporation tax against pressure from European partners, created a stable political environment and heavily marketed Ireland abroad given the chance. Unemployment tumbling to below 10% and the fastest growing economy in the EU is nothing to be sneezed at. The tax based is broadened and a future crash in tax revenue is less likely because of this. Deserve credit here.

Political reform. Mixed bag. There was a half hearted attempt to get rid of the Seanad which marginally failed. Reduced TD numbers. Constitutional convention has brought about the same sex marriage referendum due to be held in the next few months and a reduction in the age of presidential candidates. OK not the sexist reforms in the world but somehow still disappointing. Given the gravity of the situation in 2011 people wanted and demanded more. Talks of a new Republic, a new politics and Constitution fit for the 21st century was all the rage. In many ways we still have the same broken system in choosing and electing candidates.
Quite a bit has been done in local government though. Local authorities have been merged and reduced. The property tax has given local government some method of taxing their locality which is necessary for local government to work properly. We could see a situation soon where the central methods of grants is cut for good and central authorities look after themselves.

Public Sector reform. Not much to see here. Much of it is cosmetic like reduced salaries for the upper echelon, pension levy. Still the same inefficient work practices where the public and tax payer has to pay for useless quangos. Irish water would be an illustration of this culture withing the public sector of rewarding itself over and above their peers in the private sector (and I say that as someone that agrees water has to be paid for). The reforms carried out under Labour led departments has been mainly a joke. For many it still pays to claim money off the state rather then take up a job. This has been identified for years yet the same situation continues never mind Christmas bonus and all that coming back into the fold.


Overall, given the context of the times, the situation we have come from in 2011. I suppose its OK. An over all C grade. Could have been a lot worse (see Cowen) but lots of disappointments and lots of room for improvement.

The future? FG to be in the next government, probably with FF. Kenny to be leader again and will step down half way through to take up some plumb job in the EU. Leo to take over as Taoiseach (will be the youngest ever) which will usher in a generational change in the Dail and wider government. The current dail looks old. Many from FF, FG and Labour have been there for decades and I can see huge changes with new faces, new ideas in the coming election or two. Of course a proper right left divide will emerge leaving civil war politics hopefully in the dustbin of history.

LuckyLloyd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Even if I disagree with the Conservative approach I couldn't claim that they lack a vision for UK society and aren't putting their own stamp on the country.

What does this current FG / Labour government stand for? What are their economic / social policies? What political risks have they taken with their strong electoral platform to change the country?

They'll stand on the economy and unfortunately people won't be smart enough to distinguish policy decisions from bailout prerequisites.

LuckyLloyd

FG and FF going into government together would be incredibly welcome and represent a breath of fresh air for national level politics.

Zubeneschamali

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

FG and FF going into government together would be incredibly welcome and represent a breath of fresh air for national level politics.

It would also be utter suicide for FF, so don't hold your breath.

LuckyLloyd

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It would also be utter suicide for FF, so don't hold your breath.

Well both parties would surely fail to exist long term if it happened. There is no difference between them except a banner tbh. They inhabit the same ground on policy and national vision (or lack thereof). Two leopards arguing over who has more spots. The day they join together as a 'Christian Coalition' will be a great day for Irish politics.

Zubeneschamali

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The day they join together as a 'Christian Coalition' will be a great day for Irish politics.

But that isn't ever going to happen. FG have no reason to allow FFers to walk away from their parties unpopularity and grab some of FGs votes.

If FF go in as a junior partner in a FG led government, they'll take all the blame. See Labour, PDs, Greens for how that works.

Their voters will quit, either for SF (the four green fields faction) or FG (the whoever is in power, who cares about policies faction). Their TDs will go to SF, or pursue their personality votes as Independents, or we might see Real FF, Continuity FF etc. declaring Micheáls FF as traitors to the True FF Way.

Lukker-

They just about scrape a D for me.

They implemented economic reform, but the Troika held their hand for the majority of this, small changes were made here and there due to our high level of compliance but essentially any party that was in power and followed Troika guidelines would have achieved the same result.

They tip toed around any real reform they should have made with the Seanad, which ultimately led to it's failure. This had been a feature of their time in government really, too much flip flopping around and lack of a clear mandate on many issues.

The HSE is a big a mess as it ever was, so no improvement there.

Irish Water is also a total mess, more jobs for the boys, it was doomed from the outset. We've dodged this problem for years in Ireland and we went about it in such a way that you wouldn't have been surprised if it was a FF led government who set it up. I actually think if it was implemented earlier with Troika oversight it would have resulted in a more functional service. Sad reflection on Irish politics really.

It's no suprise Labour held back any Public Sector reforms, as they are inherently linked with our bloated system and the protectionism culture it has.

Quangoism and the 'jobs for the boys' culture isn't as blatant as it was in the dark days of FF led government but it is just as prevalent. It's possibly too ingrained in our culture and society for it ever to be properly removed.

The SSM referendum is the only progressive surprise from this government and for that I commend them, I certainly didn't think Enda had the balls.

Overall they did the bare minimum, but the worst of all? There is absolutely no alternative. I'll emigrate before I see another FF government. Labour hopefully go the way of the PD's after the next GE.

Shinners are the only other alternative and they are blatant populists, although I highly doubt they are stupid enough to actually implement any of their pre-election policies if they got into power. See Northern Ireland for proof.

I don't really see the point in voting anymore, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving my vote to any party as I don't think any of them come close to representing me . I'm not an idealist but all I want is a competent party that at least reflects some of my values.