How do we judge this Fine Gael government?

For Reals

I find it odd there are so many threads on Sinn Fein, 'the left' (various independents) and Lucinda Creighton etc. How everybody not connected to the status quo are ruining the country and will be the death of us should they ever get in, but let's hear Lucinda out...

We'd months of debate on Gilmore and his Wife selling a house to the local VEC, (but they were in opposition then).
So today we've this...

'Former minister appoints wife to €38k position'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0319/688129-john-perry/

And there was this....
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-td-hires-wife-as-aide-after-council-bid-fails-26716863.html

On this topic Kenny says,

'Asked about a number of Fine Gael TDs who were reported to have hired family after the election of March 2011 he said: "I've made a point of saying that it's not good practice to appoint family members.
But I have to say these are personal appointments, they are not Government appointments, they don't have to be approved by Government."

He promised us a cleaning of the house, a new look at things etc. etc....but he lied on record and seems to dismiss any wrong doing like the usual politician we are sadly so accustomed to.

Like Thatcher's terms, is it a case of balance the books and if homelessness and suicide rates or child poverty increases, what of it?
What is the point of balancing the books if it does not serve the public. Who are we serving here?
You work, pay tax and bear the brunt of any miscalculation or ineptitude on the part of those living and gambling on a different plain.
I don't think taxing the rich is any kind of answer, we need look at the entire system and rebuild. It doesn't work as it stands. The last decade has once again proven this. Shuffling money around to keep things as is is lunacy from any viewpoint, except the top tier, who basically can do no wrong as the tax payer has their back.

I feel we've seen nothing new from Fine Gael this jant on the merry-go-round despite what Kenny sold the great unwashed.
To paraphrase Monty Python, apart from appeasing the international money syndicates, what has this FG government done for us?
It might be good for the big business money men, but I guarantee it will not make a blind bit of difference to the average worker.

I would really appreciate a low level of 'what if's' as regards the chicken little community on the right. The country is what it is due to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, with a little input from some side players. If you've issues with unions or public sector workers, let's discuss it but any issues are on the back of current or previous governments....hey, maybe it's them you don't like? But I guess you didn't die in the civil war to go off and join up with some pinkos....

Baggy Trousers

I would like Enda to explain how this fits in with "New Politics"

gandalf

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Baggy Trousers

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Great post. And to be honest I think they got lucky on the economy.

On the Seanad reform - where is that now?

Completely agree on HSE and HSE Mark II (Irish Water)

Grade F for me.

gandalf

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Great post. And to be honest I think they got lucky on the economy.

They probably did because imho they should have been far more decisive and we have seen very little real reform of the PS as well. Again it was promised but once they went in coalition with Labour you just knew it was never going to be delivered on.

On the Seanad reform - where is that now?

Dead in the water I reckon. If it's being kept the voting needs to be opened to all. I'd even include people who have been resident in Ireland for over five years as well to give them some say in how their tax money is spent. Having the current closed shop is not acceptable at all where a small number of people get a vote because they attended X University over Y college.

Completely agree on HSE and HSE Mark II (Irish Water)

Grade F for me.

Being a glass half full sort of fellow I tend to be over generous

BoJack Horseman

I'd give them a 'C minus' grade.

- Budgetary recovery is fine, but dealt disproportionate harm due to Labour.

- Tax policy is fine imo.

- PS reform, minuscule, thanks to labour.

- Political reform, good considering the zero amount that went before it.
Senate abolishment
Children's court
Giving real power to oireachtas committees.
Reducing size of Dáil
Judges pay.
Reducing councillors by several hundred.
SSM/protection of life..... bill.

Some succeeded, some the people voted down, but the intention deserves credit..... FG still pathologically addicted to cute hoorism though.


Others:
Defence..... For all the hate he got, Shatter did actually give a sh*t about the brief, they have left things in better nick than they found it.
Hopefully the procurement of an MPV for the navy & expanded missions in the gulf of Aden will expand the scope of our DF.

Environment.... Aside from the long awaited septic tank initiative & IW, not good.....

Agriculture..... Good, Coveny proved an able negotiator with the EU.

Education.... No difference really... Stasis.

Transport: poor.... Labour protecting sacred cows devastated unnecessarily the capital investment budget.....

Health.... No change really,
still underfunded.... Likely to remain same for a while.

Jobs: pretty good but appears to be trailing off slightly.

For Reals

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

JustTheOne

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Do you think given the mess the HSE was in when ff were voted out, fg could turn it around in a few years?

These things takes time, it's a huge task.

JustTheOne

For Reals wrote: »

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

Godge

Firstly, it is not a Fine Gael government it is a coalition of FG/Labour.

Secondly, they achieved their primary goal, get us out from under the Troika and regain control of our own finances.

Thirdly, they have broadened the tax base with the introduction of the LPT and water charges.

Fourthly, they have kept public expenditure in check, particularly public service pay.

I am actually surprised that they achieved that much. For all that they had a bad year last year, there is a significant record of achievement. If the SSM referendum passes, they will also be able to point to a solid record of positive constitutional change.

emo72

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

JustTheOne

emo72 wrote: »

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

We have had 4 changes to the bailout terms all better and all under fg.

Greece are making things worst for their people, so why the comparison?

johnnyskeleton

For Reals wrote: »

I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

Is that not something good in itself? When they came to power and for the first few years we were in bailout mode, since then they have kept a steady hand on the tiller, alhough to what extent that is their doing or just ordinary market forces having effect is hard to tell.

I voted independent followed by labour last time. Im tempted to go independent followed by FG this time around because Im not convinced the other parties will do a better job. A lot can happen in a year though, and i wouldnt want to see a giveaway budget this year just to buy votes.

Celly Smunt

Isn't it FG job to fix the foundation for the country to boom and for FF to run it back into the ground?,this might take two terms to fix the economy this time but you can bet in 5 years time FF will inherit a nice country to ruin.

emo72

JustTheOne wrote: »

We have had 4 changes to the bailout terms all better and all under fg.

Greece are making things worst for their people, so why the comparison?

greece a basically fooked, and are agitating for a better deal. i mentioned them because they are trying to get a better deal. we had 4 changes to the bailout, but prolonging the loan isn't always a better deal.

oh and we were promised recapitalisation of the banks. The "Game changer". where that gone? Greece aren't making things worse for their people, the rest of europe is. Enda is praying they dont get a deal because he will then then look ridicuous. and there he is twisting the knife tonight. odious behaviour in fairness.

ezra_pound

emo72 wrote: »

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

emo72

ezra_pound wrote: »

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

i've been voting long enough to know that nothing ever really changes unfortunately.

edit... well nothing will ever change if people think solutions lie with FF/FG/LAB.

For Reals

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

Agreed. And I do, believe me. That's the point.
It was a wasted opportunity. More people were aware and interested in how the country was run than in living memory.

Godge wrote: »

Firstly, it is not a Fine Gael government it is a coalition of FG/Labour.

...
I am actually surprised that they achieved that much. For all that they had a bad year last year, there is a significant record of achievement. If the SSM referendum passes, they will also be able to point to a solid record of positive constitutional change.

Greasing the wheels is all.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is that not something good in itself? When they came to power and for the first few years we were in bailout mode, since then they have kept a steady hand on the tiller, alhough to what extent that is their doing or just ordinary market forces having effect is hard to tell.

......

We were sinking, now we have cups to scoop out the water and stay afloat, but there's still massive ****ing holes, (quangos, job for boys/wives etc) in the boat.

.

Zubeneschamali

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive.

In fairness, that was not Fine Gael's fault - they would have liked 2:1 cuts to tax rises, but had to negotiate with Labour, who wanted 1:2 cuts to tax rises, and protection for pensions, welfare and PS pay.

Fine Gael on their own would have cut the deficit faster and gotten us back to growth faster. I think this means Labour did a good job of protecting their voters, personally, but you can't blame FG for it.

Baggy Trousers

ezra_pound wrote: »

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

That's an ignorant post. If you don't agree, argue the points.

Zubeneschamali

emo72 wrote: »

edit... well nothing will ever change if people think solutions lie with FF/FG/LAB.

If only we had a government like Syriza - man, is there going to be change in Greece!

emo72

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If only we had a government like Syriza - man, is there going to be change in Greece!

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

either way this thread is about how do we judge FG? i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt, and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in! sorry lads ze rulez dont apply to you. new rules from now on. whoever was negotiating for us fooked us over big time.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us, basically FF did a lot of adjustments, then FG just kept to the same script from our buddies in the troika.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

sorry its a big fat fail from me.

BoJack Horseman

emo72 wrote: »

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

Ireland wasn't paid any.

i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt,

They got a deal, it just wasn't the one people wanted.

and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in!

That stung alright.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us

Thankfully so, otherwise things would be much worse.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

They did though.
The Anglo promissory note doesn't get paid till 2038.
By then it will probably be inflated away to nothing.
The state has either already gotten or will get its money back from the other banks.

Good loser

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

That's an ignorant post. If you don't agree, argue the points.

Some 'points' are so hopelessly inept they don't merit a serious response.

howiya

For Reals wrote: »

Agreed. And I do, believe me. That's the point.
It was a wasted opportunity. More people were aware and interested in how the country was run than in living memory.

This is the point I will judge FG against. The country having to call in the IMF and the subsequent general election generated an interest in politics I've never seen in my life time in this country.

People voted for Leo's famous "Not another red cent" speech as unrealistic as it was. They voted for an end to stroke politics etc.

FG have squandered that massive opportunity and have continued to embroil themselves in story lines that show that the old politics will always prevail in this country regardless of the party that governs.

Today's headline that a former minister is essentially taking what he can from the taxpayer by "employing his wife" to maximise his income while in office is just the latest in a long line of examples.

Chips Lovell

Economic policy and fiscal discipline: not bad.

Political reform: Almost non-existent aside from the half hearted Seanad abolition referendum.

Water charges: Absolute disaster. Will take years to get a decent system in place now.

Cronyism and strokes: Far too much of it.

The next year will be telling. There'll be an urge to start spending like drunken sailors in a bid to get re-elected.

El_Duderino 09

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

I agree. The best government in the world would probably only get 4/10 of their election promises through. I'm surprised how quickly everyone seems to have forgotten how close the state came to completely disaster.

Now we have 3% anual growth so people are asking why they weren't focusing on reforming the health service. The answer is that they were busy making the bread we have already forgotten eating.

JustTheOne

howiya wrote: »

This is the point I will judge FG against. The country having to call in the IMF and the subsequent general election generated an interest in politics I've never seen in my life time in this country.

People voted for Leo's famous "Not another red cent" speech as unrealistic as it was. They voted for an end to stroke politics etc.

FG have squandered that massive opportunity and have continued to embroil themselves in story lines that show that the old politics will always prevail in this country regardless of the party that governs.

Today's headline that a former minister is essentially taking what he can from the taxpayer by "employing his wife" to maximise his income while in office is just the latest in a long line of examples.

That report shows every party has a family member employed not just fg.

The red cent was in relation to Anglo, and they stuck to that.

howiya

JustTheOne wrote: »

That report shows every party has a family member employed not just fg.

The red cent was in relation to Anglo, and they stuck to that.

The only article I read yesterday was on rte.ie and solely mentioned John Perry. I don't agree with the practice of employing family members full stop unless they have been appointed after a competition ran by the Public Appointments Service during which they have shown to be the best candidate.

In the instance of Mr. Perry though it is clear he is a man with his nose firmly in the trough. He is a man in deep financial trouble and is clearly using his position as a TD to maximise the amount of money he can obtain from the taxpayer to go towards solving his financial problems. You only have to look at his expense claims to see this. Now that he has been demoted from junior minister he is employing his wife to make up for the lost income.

In relation to your second point I suggest you listen to Leo's interview from 2011 because you are factually incorrect.

Here's a quote from the interview sourced from http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/not-a-cent-more-for-the-banks-vows-fg-144826.html

"“Any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they are going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders, and on other creditors before they come looking to us for any more money. Not another cent.”

BoJack Horseman

howiya wrote: »

Here's a quote from the interview sourced from http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/not-a-cent-more-for-the-banks-vows-fg-144826.html

Any monies transfered to Anglo/IBRC subsequently were already committed.

Leo was technically right.... But disingenuous.

howiya

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Any monies transfered to Anglo/IBRC subsequently were already committed.

Leo was technically right.... But disingenuous.

And what about the money given to the rest of the banks?

jimmycrackcorm

I think the arguments on political reform are weak. We were given an opportunity to get rid of a practically useless seanad and the people rejected it. John Perry having his wife as his personal assistant is a non issue in my view as I suspect every TD has a personal assistant that they know through some connection.

frankbrett

howiya wrote: »

And what about the money given to the rest of the banks?

Are you referring to the post-PCAR recapitalisations in 2011?

micosoft

emo72 wrote: »

greece a basically fooked, and are agitating for a better deal. i mentioned them because they are trying to get a better deal. we had 4 changes to the bailout, but prolonging the loan isn't always a better deal.

oh and we were promised recapitalisation of the banks. The "Game changer". where that gone? Greece aren't making things worse for their people, the rest of europe is. Enda is praying they dont get a deal because he will then then look ridicuous. and there he is twisting the knife tonight. odious behaviour in fairness.

But that's simply untrue. The current Government of Greece is making things worse. Greece was on a growth trajectory. Now it's not. Greeks are taking their money out of the country. Tax take is massively down. Greece had many sympathisers in Europe - now they have no friends. All of this can firmly be put at the feet of the current Government.

micosoft

emo72 wrote: »

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

either way this thread is about how do we judge FG? i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt, and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in! sorry lads ze rulez dont apply to you. new rules from now on. whoever was negotiating for us fooked us over big time.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us, basically FF did a lot of adjustments, then FG just kept to the same script from our buddies in the troika.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

sorry its a big fat fail from me.

Why should the German taxpayer pay for the stupidity of the average Irish Voter who elected Fianna Fail in three times to guarantee the Irish economy would be destroyed?

One of the big challenges in this country is around the received wisdom on a lot of topics such as the idea some nasty external entity caused us to lose our heads during the boom. It's simply not true.

I for one miss the Troika who actually who spoke the truth because they weren't subject to the vagaries of a large section of the Irish electorate such as yourself with simplistic populist slogans (such as "if they could get rid of some banking debt - just like that!) and a refusal to accept that having a democratic state means the electorate have to be accountable for who they vote in and the consequence's of same.

The question of me is..... regardless of what Fine Gaels success or otherwise has been (and they had very limited scope) could we describe the success of the Irish Electorate over the past 4 years? Have they shown an increased maturity and reflection on where we went wrong as a nation? Or are we sliding back to our populist ways with the people who voted FF last time moving over to SF. Protests against a water charging system viewed as normal in most developing countries let alone every other developed country? We'll know soon enough at the next election I guess.

howiya

frankbrett wrote: »

Are you referring to the post-PCAR recapitalisations in 2011?

In short yes. People are saying his comments only related to Anglo which is incorrect if you read what he said.

Central Bank identified capital shortfalls in the banks in 2011 and I would like the apologists for Leo to explain what was obtained from the junior and senior bondholders in return for providing this capital to the banks.

Tombo2001

For Reals wrote: »

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

Don't mean to single out this post, but its a frequently voiced sentiment.

Personally, I just think its a cop out to say you expected change from Fine Gael. Its an establishment party, historically the next biggest after Fianna Fail, frequently in government over the years....

Why would you think they would deliver a material change in the way things are run. There was no reason to believe they would deliver change.

I'm not blaming Fine Gael here, they are what they are and they do it relatively well.

I'm blaming the electorate for not really knowing what it wants.

howiya

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Don't mean to single out this post, but its a frequently voiced sentiment.

Personally, I just think its a cop out to say you expected change from Fine Gael. Its an establishment party, historically the next biggest after Fianna Fail, frequently in government over the years....

Why would you think they would deliver a material change in the way things are run. There was no reason to believe they would deliver change.

I'm not blaming Fine Gael here, they are what they are and they do it relatively well.

I'm blaming the electorate for not really knowing what it wants.

I think that's nonsense to be fair. People wanted change and voted overwhelming for change and FG/Labour have not delivered on that.

This is what Enda Kenny wrote as his foreword in the Fine Gael manifesto for the 2011 general election, which by the way doesn't seem to be available on the FG website. At least I couldn't find it there…

wrote:

Behind the wreckage of our banking system, our health service, our public finances and the jobs market, lies a cosy culture of cronyism and low standards that infiltrated the top of our political and public service systems under recent Governments.

It is a culture that abandoned the principles underpinning the Republic that Fine Gael founded in 1949 by distorting the power and resources of the State for the benefit of the few, not the many. It allowed special interests to crowd out the public interest. It pushed the interests of citizens behind those of powerful elites.

The next Government must pick up the pieces. It must steer the country away from bankruptcy by solving the debt crisis in a way that protects the most vulnerable and distributes the burden fairly. It must also broaden the tax base in a way that keeps Ireland an attractive location to work, raise a family, invest and create jobs.

None of this will be easy. It could take a decade to fix many of Ireland’s problems. But it must be done.

Changing the politicians around the cabinet table is necessary to restore confidence in Ireland’s Government, but that alone will not be enough to put the country back on track. What are also needed are fundamental changes in the structures and systems of the State itself to improve the quality of governance experienced by the country. It is these fundamental changes that form the basis of this manifesto, all linked together by a 5-Point Plan that will:

1. Help protect and create jobs
2. Keep taxes low while fixing the deficit;
3. Deliver smaller, better government;
4. Create a completely new, fairer, more efficient health system; and
5. Overhaul the way our political system works to stamp out cronyism and low standards.

Is it wrong for people to want politicians to say what they mean, mean what they say and be held accountable? Naive perhaps but not wrong.

Tombo2001

howiya wrote: »

I think that's nonsense to be fair. People wanted change and voted overwhelming for change and FG/Labour have not delivered on that.

This is what Enda Kenny wrote as his foreword in the Fine Gael manifesto for the 2011 general election, which by the way doesn't seem to be available on the FG website. At least I couldn't find it there…




Is it wrong for people to want politicians to say what they mean, mean what they say and be held accountable? Naive perhaps but not wrong.

Well I'd have to completely disagree with you there. Its all very well to say you want change. What the people actually voted for was a safe pair of hands. They couldn't vote for establishment party 1. So they voted for establishment party 2 and 3.

They could have put Sinn Fein in power. They could have voted in many more independents or People Before Profit candidates. They didn't.

And you could argue that real change wasn't on the menu, save for unpalatable lefties. But surely that is a reflection of the electorate.

Phoebas

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

Tombo2001

Phoebas wrote: »

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

Recovery of confidence in the euro, dramatic declines in bond yields throughout the euro-zone, record highs in international stock markets, the austerity program and institutions (Nama etc) already in place when they were elected, strict controls imposed by the troika.......I could go on....

I wouldn't over egg that one. They've gone with the flow on the economy.

Name one thing they did that has made a material incremental difference to the economy.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think they've done a good job on the economy. But to say that they are responsible for the economic recovery......ah here.

Phoebas

^^ I can tell where this is going - everything good was going to happen anyway. Everything bad was their doing.

Tombo2001

Phoebas wrote: »

^^ I can tell where this is going - everything good was going to happen anyway. Everything bad was their doing.

I didn't say that. I'd say they have done quite well. However the international economic environment has improved hugely since they came to power. That's a fact. And Ireland has benefitted hugely in response. That's a fact. Am I wrong?

Phoebas

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I didn't say that. I'd say they have done quite well. However the international economic environment has improved hugely since they came to power. That's a fact. And Ireland has benefitted hugely in response. That's a fact. Am I wrong?

Almost every single thing that happens is influenced by external factors, and certainly a favourable economic environment has helped Ireland.

I agree with you - they have done quite well. That's what I posted!

howiya

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Well I'd have to completely disagree with you there. Its all very well to say you want change. What the people actually voted for was a safe pair of hands. They couldn't vote for establishment party 1. So they voted for establishment party 2 and 3.

They could have put Sinn Fein in power. They could have voted in many more independents or People Before Profit candidates. They didn't.

And you could argue that real change wasn't on the menu, save for unpalatable lefties. But surely that is a reflection of the electorate.

People voted to change the government. Change doesn't have to be a move from far right to far left. Often the difference is the detail.

Enda Kenny and others in FG talked about a change in culture. That's what people voted for. It's clearly yet to happen. I'm sure the Labour manifesto talked about the same but the topic here is Fine Gael.

The events of 2010/2011 brought about a whole new interest in Irish politics, many of whom would have been far too young to remember FG in government. You can argue that the electorate was naive but its certainly not a cop out. People are right to ask questions about broken election promises.

johnnyskeleton

MOD: Ok, before this gets out of hand, Phoebas says that the economy has recovered during their time and Tombo2001 agrees, but has asked whether there are any specific measures that FG positively did which encouraged this increase, or otherwise were good for the economy.

Let's either answer that question or debate whether being in power as the economy improved (a sort of steady hand at the tiller argument) is enough to judge them by.

But let's not have a back and forth of one liners or the thread will be closed

ardmacha

The question is, what has the present government done that a FF government under the Troika would not have done?
Not a great deal, I would say.

Phoebas

ardmacha wrote: »

The question is, what has the present government done that a FF government under the Troika would not have done?
Not a great deal, I would say.

You could add in any of the other possible configurations to that question. We can have a good idea from looking over to Greece what the outcome might have been if we had taken the kind of line they are taking right now.

On the question of the positive measures that the government did take - I'd rank their general insistence that we would work positively with the trioka to get through the bailout programme as being important for stability; this being very important for investment decisions, especially FDI. For specific measures, I'd point to some of the debt repayment concessions they agreed.

LeeMajors

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

To be fair, FG and Labour have carried out the FFail/Troika deal almost to the letter.
This government's problems started in December 2013 when they informed us they'd shown the same troika the door and regained Irish sovereignty (LOL).
It's been downhill since then.

bobbysands81

They paid back junior bondholders at the expense of every single community and citizen in Ireland - that's unforgivable in my book.

FreudianSlippers

I have found them quite lacklustre but I can't say that Labour aren't also to blame.

Considering all they did was implement the Troika programme (and not even in full I'll remind everyone) which could have been done by trained monkeys. All they had to do was ignore the ignorant calls for burning bondholders and "showing balls" to the EU and we'd still be where we are IMO.

taking that into consideration they have had a very poor record of promptly legislating or implementing any real reform - and what they have implemented they have ****ed up on a large scale, reverting immediately to populist and not thought out course corrections.

For me the government gets a straight 5/10; FG 6/10; Lab 4/10