How do we judge this Fine Gael government?

jimmycrackcorm

I think the arguments on political reform are weak. We were given an opportunity to get rid of a practically useless seanad and the people rejected it. John Perry having his wife as his personal assistant is a non issue in my view as I suspect every TD has a personal assistant that they know through some connection.

frankbrett

howiya wrote: »

And what about the money given to the rest of the banks?

Are you referring to the post-PCAR recapitalisations in 2011?

micosoft

emo72 wrote: »

greece a basically fooked, and are agitating for a better deal. i mentioned them because they are trying to get a better deal. we had 4 changes to the bailout, but prolonging the loan isn't always a better deal.

oh and we were promised recapitalisation of the banks. The "Game changer". where that gone? Greece aren't making things worse for their people, the rest of europe is. Enda is praying they dont get a deal because he will then then look ridicuous. and there he is twisting the knife tonight. odious behaviour in fairness.

But that's simply untrue. The current Government of Greece is making things worse. Greece was on a growth trajectory. Now it's not. Greeks are taking their money out of the country. Tax take is massively down. Greece had many sympathisers in Europe - now they have no friends. All of this can firmly be put at the feet of the current Government.

micosoft

emo72 wrote: »

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

either way this thread is about how do we judge FG? i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt, and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in! sorry lads ze rulez dont apply to you. new rules from now on. whoever was negotiating for us fooked us over big time.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us, basically FF did a lot of adjustments, then FG just kept to the same script from our buddies in the troika.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

sorry its a big fat fail from me.

Why should the German taxpayer pay for the stupidity of the average Irish Voter who elected Fianna Fail in three times to guarantee the Irish economy would be destroyed?

One of the big challenges in this country is around the received wisdom on a lot of topics such as the idea some nasty external entity caused us to lose our heads during the boom. It's simply not true.

I for one miss the Troika who actually who spoke the truth because they weren't subject to the vagaries of a large section of the Irish electorate such as yourself with simplistic populist slogans (such as "if they could get rid of some banking debt - just like that!) and a refusal to accept that having a democratic state means the electorate have to be accountable for who they vote in and the consequence's of same.

The question of me is..... regardless of what Fine Gaels success or otherwise has been (and they had very limited scope) could we describe the success of the Irish Electorate over the past 4 years? Have they shown an increased maturity and reflection on where we went wrong as a nation? Or are we sliding back to our populist ways with the people who voted FF last time moving over to SF. Protests against a water charging system viewed as normal in most developing countries let alone every other developed country? We'll know soon enough at the next election I guess.

howiya

frankbrett wrote: »

Are you referring to the post-PCAR recapitalisations in 2011?

In short yes. People are saying his comments only related to Anglo which is incorrect if you read what he said.

Central Bank identified capital shortfalls in the banks in 2011 and I would like the apologists for Leo to explain what was obtained from the junior and senior bondholders in return for providing this capital to the banks.

Tombo2001

For Reals wrote: »

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

Don't mean to single out this post, but its a frequently voiced sentiment.

Personally, I just think its a cop out to say you expected change from Fine Gael. Its an establishment party, historically the next biggest after Fianna Fail, frequently in government over the years....

Why would you think they would deliver a material change in the way things are run. There was no reason to believe they would deliver change.

I'm not blaming Fine Gael here, they are what they are and they do it relatively well.

I'm blaming the electorate for not really knowing what it wants.

howiya

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Don't mean to single out this post, but its a frequently voiced sentiment.

Personally, I just think its a cop out to say you expected change from Fine Gael. Its an establishment party, historically the next biggest after Fianna Fail, frequently in government over the years....

Why would you think they would deliver a material change in the way things are run. There was no reason to believe they would deliver change.

I'm not blaming Fine Gael here, they are what they are and they do it relatively well.

I'm blaming the electorate for not really knowing what it wants.

I think that's nonsense to be fair. People wanted change and voted overwhelming for change and FG/Labour have not delivered on that.

This is what Enda Kenny wrote as his foreword in the Fine Gael manifesto for the 2011 general election, which by the way doesn't seem to be available on the FG website. At least I couldn't find it there…

wrote:

Behind the wreckage of our banking system, our health service, our public finances and the jobs market, lies a cosy culture of cronyism and low standards that infiltrated the top of our political and public service systems under recent Governments.

It is a culture that abandoned the principles underpinning the Republic that Fine Gael founded in 1949 by distorting the power and resources of the State for the benefit of the few, not the many. It allowed special interests to crowd out the public interest. It pushed the interests of citizens behind those of powerful elites.

The next Government must pick up the pieces. It must steer the country away from bankruptcy by solving the debt crisis in a way that protects the most vulnerable and distributes the burden fairly. It must also broaden the tax base in a way that keeps Ireland an attractive location to work, raise a family, invest and create jobs.

None of this will be easy. It could take a decade to fix many of Ireland’s problems. But it must be done.

Changing the politicians around the cabinet table is necessary to restore confidence in Ireland’s Government, but that alone will not be enough to put the country back on track. What are also needed are fundamental changes in the structures and systems of the State itself to improve the quality of governance experienced by the country. It is these fundamental changes that form the basis of this manifesto, all linked together by a 5-Point Plan that will:

1. Help protect and create jobs
2. Keep taxes low while fixing the deficit;
3. Deliver smaller, better government;
4. Create a completely new, fairer, more efficient health system; and
5. Overhaul the way our political system works to stamp out cronyism and low standards.

Is it wrong for people to want politicians to say what they mean, mean what they say and be held accountable? Naive perhaps but not wrong.

Tombo2001

howiya wrote: »

I think that's nonsense to be fair. People wanted change and voted overwhelming for change and FG/Labour have not delivered on that.

This is what Enda Kenny wrote as his foreword in the Fine Gael manifesto for the 2011 general election, which by the way doesn't seem to be available on the FG website. At least I couldn't find it there…




Is it wrong for people to want politicians to say what they mean, mean what they say and be held accountable? Naive perhaps but not wrong.

Well I'd have to completely disagree with you there. Its all very well to say you want change. What the people actually voted for was a safe pair of hands. They couldn't vote for establishment party 1. So they voted for establishment party 2 and 3.

They could have put Sinn Fein in power. They could have voted in many more independents or People Before Profit candidates. They didn't.

And you could argue that real change wasn't on the menu, save for unpalatable lefties. But surely that is a reflection of the electorate.

Phoebas

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

Tombo2001

Phoebas wrote: »

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

Recovery of confidence in the euro, dramatic declines in bond yields throughout the euro-zone, record highs in international stock markets, the austerity program and institutions (Nama etc) already in place when they were elected, strict controls imposed by the troika.......I could go on....

I wouldn't over egg that one. They've gone with the flow on the economy.

Name one thing they did that has made a material incremental difference to the economy.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I think they've done a good job on the economy. But to say that they are responsible for the economic recovery......ah here.

Phoebas

^^ I can tell where this is going - everything good was going to happen anyway. Everything bad was their doing.

Tombo2001

Phoebas wrote: »

^^ I can tell where this is going - everything good was going to happen anyway. Everything bad was their doing.

I didn't say that. I'd say they have done quite well. However the international economic environment has improved hugely since they came to power. That's a fact. And Ireland has benefitted hugely in response. That's a fact. Am I wrong?

Phoebas

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I didn't say that. I'd say they have done quite well. However the international economic environment has improved hugely since they came to power. That's a fact. And Ireland has benefitted hugely in response. That's a fact. Am I wrong?

Almost every single thing that happens is influenced by external factors, and certainly a favourable economic environment has helped Ireland.

I agree with you - they have done quite well. That's what I posted!

howiya

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Well I'd have to completely disagree with you there. Its all very well to say you want change. What the people actually voted for was a safe pair of hands. They couldn't vote for establishment party 1. So they voted for establishment party 2 and 3.

They could have put Sinn Fein in power. They could have voted in many more independents or People Before Profit candidates. They didn't.

And you could argue that real change wasn't on the menu, save for unpalatable lefties. But surely that is a reflection of the electorate.

People voted to change the government. Change doesn't have to be a move from far right to far left. Often the difference is the detail.

Enda Kenny and others in FG talked about a change in culture. That's what people voted for. It's clearly yet to happen. I'm sure the Labour manifesto talked about the same but the topic here is Fine Gael.

The events of 2010/2011 brought about a whole new interest in Irish politics, many of whom would have been far too young to remember FG in government. You can argue that the electorate was naive but its certainly not a cop out. People are right to ask questions about broken election promises.

johnnyskeleton

MOD: Ok, before this gets out of hand, Phoebas says that the economy has recovered during their time and Tombo2001 agrees, but has asked whether there are any specific measures that FG positively did which encouraged this increase, or otherwise were good for the economy.

Let's either answer that question or debate whether being in power as the economy improved (a sort of steady hand at the tiller argument) is enough to judge them by.

But let's not have a back and forth of one liners or the thread will be closed

ardmacha

The question is, what has the present government done that a FF government under the Troika would not have done?
Not a great deal, I would say.

Phoebas

ardmacha wrote: »

The question is, what has the present government done that a FF government under the Troika would not have done?
Not a great deal, I would say.

You could add in any of the other possible configurations to that question. We can have a good idea from looking over to Greece what the outcome might have been if we had taken the kind of line they are taking right now.

On the question of the positive measures that the government did take - I'd rank their general insistence that we would work positively with the trioka to get through the bailout programme as being important for stability; this being very important for investment decisions, especially FDI. For specific measures, I'd point to some of the debt repayment concessions they agreed.

LeeMajors

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

To be fair, FG and Labour have carried out the FFail/Troika deal almost to the letter.
This government's problems started in December 2013 when they informed us they'd shown the same troika the door and regained Irish sovereignty (LOL).
It's been downhill since then.

bobbysands81

They paid back junior bondholders at the expense of every single community and citizen in Ireland - that's unforgivable in my book.

FreudianSlippers

I have found them quite lacklustre but I can't say that Labour aren't also to blame.

Considering all they did was implement the Troika programme (and not even in full I'll remind everyone) which could have been done by trained monkeys. All they had to do was ignore the ignorant calls for burning bondholders and "showing balls" to the EU and we'd still be where we are IMO.

taking that into consideration they have had a very poor record of promptly legislating or implementing any real reform - and what they have implemented they have ****ed up on a large scale, reverting immediately to populist and not thought out course corrections.

For me the government gets a straight 5/10; FG 6/10; Lab 4/10

LuckyLloyd

Phoebas wrote: »

They delivered well on by far the most important issue facing them.

Anyone thinking we'd be in a drastically different position if FF had retained power aren't paying attention tbh. This government did what they were told mostly and a policy of their own like jobs bridge is frankly an embarrassment to the history of the state.

They have no vision beyond power retention.

Baggy Trousers

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Anyone thinking we'd be in a drastically different position if FF had retained power aren't paying attention tbh. This government did what they were told mostly and a policy of their own like jobs bridge is frankly an embarrassment to the history of the state.

They have no vision beyond power retention.

Yes indeed and that is why they will do nothing of substance during their last year of power. They don't want to rock the boat in any way. It's all propaganda from here until GE2016.

LeeMajors

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Yes indeed and that is why they will do nothing of substance during their last year of power. They don't want to rock the boat in any way. It's all propaganda from here until GE2016.

They'll re-hash a few spending plans, restore the welfare Christmas bonus, maybe bring income tax down a bit (only the higher rate mind!) and a few various 'goodies' over the next 12 months in an attempt to buy the electorate.

They'll have studied previous FFail governments to work out the best way to do this.

Baggy Trousers

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

They have no vision beyond power retention.

When you think of the opportunity they had in their 1st year, it's very very disappointing. A once in a lifetime opportunity. People were prepared to accept 'pain' once they knew they believed a better government, public service and society would result.

LeeMajors

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

When you think of the opportunity they had in their 1st year, it's very very disappointing. A once in a lifetime opportunity. People were prepared to accept 'pain' once they knew they believed a better government, public service and society would result.

I gave FG my no.1 myself on their solemn promise of delivering the above.

I'd now rather that we had left FFail in place to sort out the mess they made, and I never, never thought I'd say that.

For Reals

howiya wrote: »

This is the point I will judge FG against. The country having to call in the IMF and the subsequent general election generated an interest in politics I've never seen in my life time in this country.

People voted for Leo's famous "Not another red cent" speech as unrealistic as it was. They voted for an end to stroke politics etc.

FG have squandered that massive opportunity and have continued to embroil themselves in story lines that show that the old politics will always prevail in this country regardless of the party that governs.

Today's headline that a former minister is essentially taking what he can from the taxpayer by "employing his wife" to maximise his income while in office is just the latest in a long line of examples.

Exactly. Instead of any historic game changing we got the usual. Kenny and chums could have really made something of themselves and for our system, but it seems it was all bluster just to get in. It's just sad.

FYI: as mentioned, they had my support, so no 'Shinner' nonsense from the right wing gallery please.

Van.Bosch

As posted above if FF had regained power do people think the country would be very different to how it is now?

LeeMajors

Van.Bosch wrote: »

As posted above if FF had regained power do people think the country would be very different to how it is now?

FG's budgets since they took office have been regressive.

The ESRI have done studies on this and shown how FG budgets hit the poorest in the country the most.

Like Robin Hood in reverse as someone once put it.

flutered

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Ireland wasn't paid any.


They got a deal, it just wasn't the one people wanted.


That stung alright.


Thankfully so, otherwise things would be much worse.


They did though.
The Anglo promissory note doesn't get paid till 2038.
By then it will probably be inflated away to nothing.
The state has either already gotten or will get its money back from the other banks.

take a decco at the repayments due 2017-2020

Fr Tod Umptious

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

When you think of the opportunity they had in their 1st year, it's very very disappointing. A once in a lifetime opportunity. People were prepared to accept 'pain' once they knew they believed a better government, public service and society would result.

No they weren't.
If people were prepared to accept pain then there would have been no rise is the support for the populist clap trap that the likes of SF dole out.
No matter what is done people will never be pleased.
This govt has carried out reforms, they tried to abolish the upper house, they done away with a lot of local councils, they have tightened up on waste in the public sector and welfare fraud.
But of course it will never be enough for some.

And I don't think that they are just doing what FF would have done.
One thing that was a constant in the GE was FFs insistence that the terms of the bailout could not be changed.
Since then the interest rates, term of the loans, and the promissory notes have all been changed.
FF would not even have tried to get any of the above concessions