HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

kub

It sounds to me like that installer is incompetent when it comes to inertia shock sensors. He has specified a system whereby someone can smash the glass on one of your vulnerable windows or doors and enter your home.
Granted yes you have 2 beams, but by the time that they detect the intruder he is already in your home.

Get yourself some quotes from competent installers please.

fred funk }{

kub wrote: »

It sounds to me like that installer is incompetent when it comes to inertia shock sensors. He has specified a system whereby someone can smash the glass on one of your vulnerable windows or doors and enter your home.
Granted yes you have 2 beams, but by the time that they detect the intruder he is already in your home.

Get yourself some quotes from competent installers please.

Also, the beams will be more than likely off on Part set so even more vulnerable.

John Kelly of

The lads are correct and you should have shock sensors on some places at least.
Also the annual fee for the gsm-sc sim is 60 euro so he is charging you another 46 euro on top of it so shop around as other people do it for 60 euro

fred funk }{

Shop around indeed but I don't see anything wrong with the installer adding a margin on. He's more than likely offering a remote service for the extra.

KoolKid

Truth wins wrote: »

Hey guys

Quick question if you can please give your input on this.

I am getting the below but M/C contacts only and not the sensors as have been advised by the installer that sensors give false alarms so they dont put it. Should I go with the below. All for €650 plus €96 annual charge for SIM. Is this a competitive price?

3 No. Combined hard-wired contacts for doors

13 No. Combined hard-wired contacts for windows

2 No. PIR

1 No. Deltabell external siren & strobe

1 No. Internal siren

1 No. HKC Securewave 1070

1 No. HKC Securewave RKP

1 No. Battery & spur

1 No. HKC GSM-SC

Yes he's having you on on a couple of matters.
Inertia sensors should be installed on all accessible points of entry. A PiR is useless on its own as it will only tell you after someone has broken into your house.
On the monitoring/app side of it shop around . There are free options & there are cheaper options available. Look back through this thread & you will get a lot of good information.

Truth wins

Thank you all. Very informative.

Truth wins

The installer also mentioned that he doesnt need to survey the house and will come straight to install. I found that quite weird.

kub

Truth wins wrote: »

The installer also mentioned that he doesnt need to survey the house and will come straight to install. I found that quite weird.

As i mentioned, incompetent.
As per EN50131-1, which he as i am assuming is a PSA licensed installer, has to abide by. He is supposed to do a thing called a Risk Assessment which means looking at your house before proposing a system

fred funk }{

Truth wins wrote: »

The installer also mentioned that he doesnt need to survey the house and will come straight to install. I found that quite weird.

Most installers will try to do a site visit but, for example, it was a pre-wired house all we would need to know is amount of points etc. Our risk assessment can be amended on the day of install. No biggie but in my experience people like someone to come out and explain things and show them how it'll work.

Truth wins

Hey folks

In a bit of a dilemma here.

Been to few good companies and 3 companies in a row now have said that shock sensors are useless and contact are the only way to go.

They have explained that during the test mode shock sensor has a very very high sensitivity so if you bang on a window, it may go off. However, during the full mode, you can punch the glass loud and it wont go off.

Burglars dont break the glass to avoid attracting attention and instead pull the glass with screwdriver or enter through the patio or front door and if contacts are there, the alarm will go off.

My question is, if is this true , would Pyronix system would suffice the requirement? It has no yearly charge once installed and has an app to control.

Thanks

KoolKid

This is another classic example of a company who wants you to install what they want not what you require or need.
He also neglected to tell you that shock sensors also have a pulse setting that can detect someone tampering with a window or door or trying to force open.
An alarm activation after the intruder has gained entry is useless.
Shop elsewhere is my advice.

John Kelly of

Truth wins wrote: »

Hey folks

In a bit of a dilemma here.

Been to few good companies and 3 companies in a row now have said that shock sensors are useless and contact are the only way to go.

They have explained that during the test mode shock sensor has a very very high sensitivity so if you bang on a window, it may go off. However, during the full mode, you can punch the glass loud and it wont go off.

Burglars dont break the glass to avoid attracting attention and instead pull the glass with screwdriver or enter through the patio or front door and if contacts are there, the alarm will go off.

My question is, if is this true , would Pyronix system would suffice the requirement? It has no yearly charge once installed and has an app to control.

Thanks

No he is straight up lying, let me guess his name starts with P and his 'company' begins with an S?:)

Truth wins

John Kelly of wrote: »

No he is straight up lying, let me guess his name starts with P and his 'company' begins with an S?:)

Haha.. Yes, thats correct.

Truth wins

KoolKid wrote: »

This is another classic example of a company who wants you to install what they want not what you require or need.
He also neglected to tell you that shock sensors also have a pulse setting that can detect someone tampering with a window or door or trying to force open.
An alarm activation after the intruder has gained entry is useless.
Shop elsewhere is my advice.

Koolkid...I have sent you a PM re siemens and if you could get back on that please. Thank you

KoolKid

Got that back you. If you have any questions come back to me.

John Kelly of

not at all, why would they install different systems if they think that hkc is great quality, meets every conceivable requirement and never gives trouble? why bother like?

Fatmeathman

Truth wins wrote: »

Koolkid...I have sent you a PM re siemens and if you could get back on that please. Thank you

Hi Truth what system did you go with in the end, I am looking to get a self monitored wired alarm for a new build I never thought there would be so many options. My old place was phone watch I find it expensive for what you get

John Kelly of

Fair enough but I am an installer and I reckon that having no subscription for an app over wifi is not the only thing to take into consideration.
There are plenty of other attributes that hkc is better on which outweigh that.
I have found that you can't sell 2 competing products at the same time so you have to pick the best overall and go with that.

Drifter50

John Kelly of wrote: »

not at all, why would they install different systems if they think that hkc is great quality, meets every conceivable requirement and never gives trouble? why bother like?

Good point, it always bemuses me why some people try to reinvent the wheel, the HKC system works, support is available, why bother looking elsewhere

bk

Drifter50 wrote: »

Good point, it always bemuses me why some people try to reinvent the wheel, the HKC system works, support is available, why bother looking elsewhere

- Charging for app self monitoring, that most people want for free and can get for free elsewhere.
- Polling of 5 hours when others offer less then 5 minutes.
- Lack of integration with modern home automation systems (e.g. Philips Hue, Alexa, Google Home, etc.) that people increasingly want and expect.
- Seem to have missed the boat completely on integrating CCTV cameras into their tech which is an area that has become very important in the security market.
- Quantum panel looks poorly designed.

To be honest, while they seem to make solid hardware, they do feel like they are falling far behind where the market is heading.

Looking at professionally installed systems in the US market, from the likes of Visionic/DSC and ADT. All modern touch screen screen systems with apps and extensive home automation integration, etc.

Also Visionics frequency hopping technology and use of AES encryption on their PowerG wireless gear looks seriously impressive. I don't know for a fact, but I can't find any indication if HKC Securewave does any of that.

John Kelly of

granted Hkc do charge 60 euro per annum but for that you get 2 paths, gsm and wifi so it's less likely to go down.
last time I checked visonic shock sensors didn't have pulse setting to detect multiple small vibrations and you would need to hit them with a sledgehammer to activate the alarm, granted that was a good while ago perhaps they have got out new ones? If not then I found that system is inadequate for window/door protection.
You can connect lights and gates to the hkc app if you wish and soon they will have a wireless product for connecting heating systems.
Also you can now integrate most brands of cctv cameras with the hkc app.

bk

John Kelly of wrote: »

granted Hkc do charge 60 euro per annum but for that you get 2 paths, gsm and wifi so it's less likely to go down.

That is good, at least it is dual path. Though I've seen a lot of single path GSM only models installed and charging the same. Less justification for that.

Ideally IMO in this day and age all new panels should come with wifi built in with self monitoring for free out of the box. GSM backup channel can then be a paid optional extra.

John Kelly of wrote: »

last time I checked visonic shock sensors didn't have pulse setting to detect multiple small vibrations and you would need to hit them with a sledgehammer to activate the alarm, granted that was a good while ago perhaps they have got out new ones? If not then I found that system is inadequate for window/door protection.

This seems to suggest that the Visionic Shocks have the same features:
http://dsc.com/alarm-security-products/PG9935%20-%20Wireless%20PowerG%20Shock%20Detector/2477

John Kelly of wrote: »

You can connect lights and gates to the hkc app if you wish and soon they will have a wireless product for connecting heating systems.

I consider this sort of integration with Home Automation what I might call old fashioned. I don't think most people want this. What I think most want is integration at the software/cloud services level.

They don't want their alarm directly controlling lights. They want them to work in-conjunction with their Philips Hue lights at a software level.

They want to be able to say: "Hey Google, Arm Alarm"

John Kelly of wrote: »

Also you can now integrate most brands of cctv cameras with the hkc app.

Great! Though I assume that doesn't include the more modern cloud IP type cameras, Nest, Arlo, etc.

John Kelly of

bk wrote: »

This seems to suggest that the Visionic Shocks have the same features:
http://dsc.com/alarm-security-products/PG9935%20-%20Wireless%20PowerG%20Shock%20Detector/2477



I consider this sort of integration with Home Automation what I might call old fashioned. I don't think most people want this. What I think most want is integration at the software/cloud services level.

They don't want their alarm directly controlling lights. They want them to work in-conjunction with their Philips Hue lights at a software level.

They want to be able to say: "Hey Google, Arm Alarm"



Great! Though I assume that doesn't include the more modern cloud IP type cameras, Nest, Arlo, etc.

Of course I agree a free app over wifi would be great however hkc are charging and the customers don't mind paying so they can get away with it I suppose, can you blame them? At least they provide 2 paths.
If I started pushing another system I would lose business I reckon as I find the customers actually demand hkc most of the time, I just give the people what they want and never hear any complaints back either.

I couldn't open the link on the visonic shocks.

For people looking for a simple domestic alarm system which is the vast majority of hkc sales I don't see much if any demand for the things you speak of anyway and I am sure hkc have considered the potential returns and decided they don't justify investing in those things yet.

bk

John Kelly of wrote: »

Of course I agree a free app over wifi would be great however hkc are charging and the customers don't mind paying so they can get away with it I suppose, can you blame them? At least they provide 2 paths.

Is is that customers don't mind paying or is it because it is offered to them as their only option by most installers?

I mean this forum seem to be full of many posts from people looking for an alarm system with free monitoring. I've no proof, but I believe that is actually what most people want.

The danger for HKC is that over the next year or so the market is likely to be hit with a number of systems with free monitoring from some very big brand companies, Google Nest, Amazon, Samsung ADT, etc.

There is a great danger that they could lose lots of customers to those companies, if those companies are giving people what they actually want.

John Kelly of wrote: »

If I started pushing another system I would lose business I reckon as I find the customers actually demand hkc most of the time, I just give the people what they want and never hear any complaints back either.

I'm not saying you shouldn't offer HKC, not at all or even "push" another system.

But in my experience a true professional can offer a range of products and solutions, explain the pros and cons, listen to what their customers wants and their requirements and make a recommendation, but of course give them in the end what they want.

Just offering HKC to everyone doesn't sound like offering choice to your customer to me or giving people what they want IMO.

What would be so wrong with saying I can offer two options, HKC with monitoring at €70 per year or GSD/Siemens/whatever with free monitoring and here are the pros and cons.

You aren't "pushing" anything on anyone, you are giving them more choices.

John Kelly of wrote: »

For people looking for a simple domestic alarm system which is the vast majority of hkc sales I don't see much if any demand for the things you speak of anyway and I am sure hkc have considered the potential returns and decided they don't justify investing in those things yet.

And that is why I think HKC stagnated, failed to crack the UK market and are very much falling behind the market and in the end have now been bought by ASSA Alboy.

Go read the Home Automation fourm, HA tech is exploding, smart thermostats for heating with free apps are very quickly becoming the norm with everyone around the country. Smart lighting too is very popular. cloud IP cameras are becoming very popular. Google Home, Alexa super popular.

And then they look at their very expensive alarm system and wonder why it doesn't have the same connectivity? Why they have to pay €70 for far less sophisticated connectivity? It doesn't make sense.

Look at Climote, another Irish company who made a similar mistake. They have a smart thermostat that uses SIM card and requires a sub. Then the market got flooded with the likes of Nest, Netatmo, Hive, Tado, etc. with their free apps and before you know it Climote was wiped out. It just wasn't what people wanted after all.

I worry that the same will happen to HKC in the next 2 years or so if they aren't careful and all those new Smart connected alarm systems that were launched in the US in the past few months start coming to Ireland too.

With ASSA Alboy at least they will hopefully gain tech and ideas from their partner companies like Yale.

KoolKid

bk wrote: »

Is is that customers don't mind paying or is it because it is offered to them as their only option by most installers?

I mean this forum seem to be full of many posts from people looking for an alarm system with free monitoring. I've no proof, but I believe that is actually what most people want.

From an installer you are spot on there. People aren't told there is any other options. Even if they wan't GSM as a second paid option they are not told there are cheaper options with massively superior poll times as you mentioned earlier.
Not to mention HKCs service was severely disrupted for long periods again today.

bk wrote: »

The danger for HKC is that over the next year or so the market is likely to be hit with a number of systems with free monitoring from some very big brand companies, Google Nest, Amazon, Samsung ADT, etc.

There is a great danger that they could lose lots of customers to those companies, if those companies are giving people what they actually want.

And I think they know it, hence the good time to sell.

bk wrote: »

I'm not saying you shouldn't offer HKC, not at all or even "push" another system.

But in my experience a true professional can offer a range of products and solutions, explain the pros and cons, listen to what their customers wants and their requirements and make a recommendation, but of course give them in the end what they want.

Just offering HKC to everyone doesn't sound like offering choice to your customer to me or giving people what they want IMO.

I agree here 100%. I don't get the argument that you cant sell competing products.Every retailer, wholesaler & trade in the country do it.
Regardless of the industry in question,I would be very suspicious of any individual or company who are only interested in selling me what they want.
If Harvey Normans sold only one brand their shops would be empty I'd imagine.

bk wrote: »

What would be so wrong with saying I can offer two options, HKC with monitoring at €70 per year or GSD/Siemens/whatever with free monitoring and here are the pros and cons.

Again thats the professional way to go. Unfortunately there are also company's/individuals whose experience is limited to one or 2 systems & they are not willing to do anything else.
I regularly come across jobs being refused because the customer won't buy HKC.

bk wrote: »

Look at Climote, another Irish company who made a similar mistake. They have a smart thermostat that uses SIM card and requires a sub. Then the market got flooded with the likes of Nest, Netatmo, Hive, Tado, etc. with their free apps and before you know it Climote was wiped out. It just wasn't what people wanted after all.

A very good example.
However the thing is the security industry is not that brand orientated from the end users perspective . In 30 years I could count on my hands how many times a customer has said to me they want a particular system.
Most are looking for more information and guidance.

davidconroy46

I had it out about 3 yrs ago with Hkc about the App never mind the €60 per year. I was told by one of the main men about both. I was told basicly, the Gsm-q qas a thing of the past in which i said they had thousands out there in which i still use myself. I said they could do something in software upgrade so that the app could be used. I was told it couldnt be done. I kive the Hkc system but that really annoyed me. They got into the uk market so they dont care.

KoolKid

They always had that arrogance about them & the attitude to backward compatibility was to upgrade, upgrade upgrade.
My last straw was the contempt they treated Astec customers with when they bought that brand.
We might be seeing that come full circle after recent events.

davidconroy46

The sold off ever bote of the astec products to somebody in the uk i believe. Astec 2 wire ok. Anybody could fit them. But for them yo find a faulty sensor on the zone bus, they hadnt got a clue. Hkc could have held onto some parts but only wanted rid off. Didnt care about anybody who was still using astec.

John Kelly of

bk wrote: »

Is is that customers don't mind paying or is it because it is offered to them as their only option by most installers?

Most installers recommend hkc that is true well spotted. Why do you think that is the case? simple because of 2 factors, they are the most reliable and don't give trouble and they are high quality and actually work properly.
And yes they are easy to install and extremely user friendly for fault diagnoses etc which is great too.
Those are the most important factors from the installer point of view.
Hkc products are not cheap there are plenty of far cheaper products like the Visonic you were on about earlier. I could install and push Visonic if I liked for wireless situations and would make a lot more money for the same price quoted than hkc. In fact I did it for a while but stopped because I didn't think the quality was good.

KoolKid

John Kelly of wrote: »

Most installers recommend hkc

Looking over the installers Facebook group and listening at the trade counters will give you a more balanced view than here.
There are also plenty who know nothing else so they obviously only recommend what they are able to install. These are usually the ones you hear complaining about HKC at the trade counters.
To slag off other brands is more sales speel than anything else. After all, all these other makes have to conform to the same EN standard.
No system out there is perfect and no system does it all. That's why users should be given choices based on their wants and requirements, not the installers.