The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

Billy86

Putin wrote: »

That make no sense at all. You say what if Brady losses Gronk? That's the same as saying what if Rodgers losses Cobb? Same difference.

I don't know how you could forget that Brady got to the AFC title game in 2013 after starting the season missing an entire offense.:eek:

Then of course let's not forget that Brady has played in 4 super bowls and won 3 of them without ever having a Gronk on the team or an elite WR.

Statistically speaking Bray is the best QB in the league right now, he's averaging a superhuman 32 completions per game for 370 yards at 72% for 3 TD's a game and 0 int's.

Rodgers is second averaging 22 completions per game for 248 yards at 72% for 2.75 TD.s and 0 int's.

Brady is throwing 10 more passes for game, for 122 more yards per game and for a higher TD average.

Afaic, Rodgers and Brady are always out on their own in the league, but stats wise Brady edges it.

To be fair, it would not be like Rodgers missing Cobb - it would be like Rodgers missing Nelson. Which he has been all season.

It bares mentioning that Rodgers has never had a weapon like 2007 Moss or Gronk, I think Nelson last year was the first WR or TE to get named all pro in Rodgers' career... and we dont have him this season.

And Rodgers has likewise played without an offense in 2012, where he had an atrocious offensive line, a very poor running game (apart from two guys who combined for 70-odd carries all season in Harris and Grant, nobody averaged over 3.6 YPC, while the leading rusher on the team had less than 500 yards on 3.4 YPC), his #1 target out for over half the year, and his other targets placing 5th (Cobb), 6th (Nelson) and 7th (Finley) for drops in the league over 45 catches. The line was so bad that they could not contain 3 or 4 man rushes... all game long, allowing the other 7-8 players drop into coverage. And he did not have a defense playing lights out in the games where he was missing more players. He still kept the highest passer rating in the league, was 3rd in accuracy, 5th in YPA, 2nd in TDs, and first in TD:INT ratio. He also led the packers to the division title and an 11-5 record, and the NFC Divisional Game, which GB lost... while putting up 31 points. Much like last season against Seattle, you can't blame that loss at all on Rodgers unless he was part of the defense that gave up 45 points and an all time record 181 scrambling yards to Kaepernick.

Not a shot at Brady, just pointing it out since I still think 2012 might well be Rodgers best year of his career because of this. He was as close to a one man offense as I've probably ever seen since watching the league... and I forgot to mention he was GB's second leading rusher and highest in YPC (4.8) that season, also.

nerd69

to be honest i think rodgers is playing better than brady right now but if we take both at there peaks its almost a pointless debate as both where/are insane and both at there peak are top tier of all time.

i think rodgers obviously has way more mobility outside the pocket but bradys mobility within the pocket is unmatched also i think brady has the ability to get the ball out/get through his reads quicker but i would argue rodgers has the better natural arm talent.

i think both where all time great at there peak rodgers probably just has to do it for a few more years before you can really consider him an all time great (an i know thats not the argument that was being made)

nerd69

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Brady in 2013. Lost just about all weapons from the previous season. He had Tompkins, Edelman (who hadn't done much to that point), a non performing (and injured) Amendola, Boyce, Collie, Hoomanawanui, Vereen/Gronk missing half the season......
A few of those names will be unrecognizable to most people.
They go 12:4, lose the AFC title game by just 10pts (and would IMO have given a better game than the Bronco's did in the SB).

Brady, stats wise, did not have a good season. But he won games, and got close to getting his team to another SB. Brady (2007) and Manning (2013) had record breaking seasons, but didn't win it all. Regular season stats and performances are great, but winning when it counts most of all is a different level IMO.

i hate the rings argument to be honest there are far more things that a qbs play that count towards that rings are a terrible way to judge any player

Billy86

nerd69 wrote: »

i hate the rings argument to be honest there are far more things that a qbs play that count towards that rings are a terrible way to judge any player

Wait, you mean Brandon Bostick's inability to catch an onside kick, or the defense giving up touchdowns in three consecutive drives to end the game (one of which was the game ender, in OT) were not Rodgers fault? Surely if he was as good as billed he would be calling the defensive plays and contirbuting on special teams though, right!? :eek:

j8wk2feszrnpao

nerd69 wrote: »

i hate the rings argument to be honest there are far more things that a qbs play that count towards that rings are a terrible way to judge any player

Who's making a 'rings argument'? This line has been trotted out before.

The vast majority of my post went through Brady's receiving corps in 2013 and showed the limited lineup he had and he still did the business and got to the AFC game.
I only had one line about Brady/Manning's amazing record seasons not winning the SB, I never discounted them, I actually said they were great seasons.

My guess is that if Rodgers had another 2 rings, they'd somehow become a lot more relevant than QBR.

JCTO

This thread proves how pointless the debate of QB vs QB is. Revolving door arguments.

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

My guess is that if Rodgers had another 2 rings, they'd somehow become a lot more relevant than QBR.

Can't speak for everyone, but I've been saying it's a terrible argument for years. It was always telling that the majority who use it a lot had a strong tendency to throw in the disclaimer of "oh except Marino, that's different..."

JCTO

I think a new thread is needed for QB debates:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057505901

Realt Dearg Sec

Billy86

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Jay Cutler; in a league of his own!!

Knex*

Rodgers is on pace to reach 400 TDs at something like over 1000 fewer pass attempts than the current record - Brady.

Brady took over 7000, Rodgers on pace for just over 6000.

Pherekydes

Knex. wrote: »

Rodgers is on pace to reach 400 TDs at something like over 1000 fewer pass attempts than the current record - Brady.

Brady took over 7000, Rodgers on pace for just over 6000.

Yeah, but he'll never beat Favre's interception record.

Putin

HigginsJ wrote: »

Taking a slightly longer look, going on last season and to start this year

Rodgers 49 Td's - 5 Int's 72.4% this year 65.6% last
Brady 42 Td's - 9 Int's 72.2% this year 64.1% last

Rodgers is the better stats wise QB in the last year and a half, frankly he is playing at a level that few QB's have reached. Brady is phenomenal to be playing this well at this stage of his career.

I agree that Rodgers and Brady are in a league of their own, but with-in that mini league Rodgers is the best in the business right now.

Keeping it short, Rodgers did nothing against the Seahawks in 2 games last season. Brady did more in just one game, the biggest game of them all - the superbowl. He destroyed one of the best defenses of all time in the 4th quarter the kind of drives Rodgers or Manning couldn't put together against the Seahawks and with Chancellor on the field.

If Rodgers can play at the lever Brady is playing at at 38, maybe he might enter the discussion. But right now the GOAT debate is just between Montana & Brady. And Rodgers would need to seriously improve where it really matters - the postseason.

nerd69

Putin wrote: »

Keeping it short, Rodgers did nothing against the Seahawks in 2 games last season. Brady did more in just one game, the biggest game of them all - the superbowl. He destroyed one of the best defenses of all time in the 4th quarter the kind of drives Rodgers or Manning couldn't put together against the Seahawks and with Chancellor on the field.

If Rodgers can play at the lever Brady is playing at at 38, maybe he might enter the discussion. But right now the GOAT debate is just between Montana & Brady. And Rodgers would need to seriously improve where it really matters - the postseason.

nobody has claimed that rodgers has a better legacy than brady that would be insane but the argument that he is playing better right now or even that he is playing better right now than brady did at his peak is a valid argument

Vandango

nerd69 wrote: »

nobody has claimed that rodgers has a better legacy than brady that would be insane but the argument that he is playing better right now or even that he is playing better right now than brady did at his peak is a valid argument

But these stats prove that Brady is the best QB in the league right now.....

Putin wrote: »

Statistically speaking Bray is the best QB in the league right now, he's averaging a superhuman 32 completions per game for 370 yards at 72% for 3 TD's a game and 0 int's.

Rodgers is second averaging 22 completions per game for 248 yards at 72% for 2.75 TD.s and 0 int's.

Brady is throwing 10 more passes for game, for 122 more yards per game and for a higher TD average.

And more worrying for rivals Brady at 38, is playing better than ever.

Realt Dearg Sec

Please, someone make it stop.

adrian522

Since when is completions per game the stat that dictates which QB is best? Seems a bit arbitrary to me.

Seems like you can pick a stat for whichever side of the argument you are on, TD, TD:INT ratio, completion %, TD's, Wins, Passer Rating, QBR, Yards Per Attempt, etc, etc.

nerd69

Vandango wrote: »

But these stats prove that Brady is the best QB in the league right now.....



And more worrying for rivals Brady at 38, is playing better than ever.

but they are playing with completely different pieces around them. i think the fact that brady is doing it at his age to be insane (and a kick in the face for people like myself who though his arm strenght would wain with age it has not ) but gronk in particular is a massive part of the pats offence right now and probably the biggest weapon in the entire league

Vandango

Billy86 wrote: »

.It bares mentioning that Rodgers has never had a weapon like 2007 Moss or Gronk

Let's not forget that Moss was in the twilight of his career when he became a Pat. His season record of 23 TD's might have been 30, if Brady got Moss when he was in his peak.

As for Gronk, Brady only had a healthy Gronk in 2010 and in 2014.

Billy86 wrote: »

.And Rodgers has likewise played without an offense in 2012

I don't ever remember Rodgers ever starting a season with his top 6 WR's gone which = 94% of his pass catchers gone from the offense. How many 7th rd draft picks has Rodgers turned into stars? I know Brady has done it a lot.

And RE: O lines, over the last 5 seasons, Rodgers has been sacked on avg 33 times a year. For Brady it's been an avg of 29 times a year. So when you consider that Rodgers holds onto the ball much longer and Brady is always very fast at making his reads and releasing the ball. Then Brady's sack ratio is worse whiich also suggests his O line isn't the best.

We've also have 3 rookies playing in the interior line this year and while some have praised them. They're only doing well because Brady is lighting fast in getting rid of the ball. If Brady moved around like Rodgers or held the ball for as long, I've no doubt he probably be murdered on the field.

JCTO

Ah come on move it to the other thread at this point.

Vandango

nerd69 wrote: »

Gronk in particular is a massive part of the pats offence right now and probably the biggest weapon in the entire league

Nobody's disputing the Brady-Gronk connection and what a weapon it is. The point I and others are making is, regardless of Gronk, regardless of Moss, Brady has been doing it all his career, no matter who he has had on the field.

Billy86

Vandango wrote: »

But these stats prove that Brady is the best QB in the league right now.....

Not necessarily, no. Brady is 0.1 ahead in YPA while Rodgers is 0.2 ahead in completion percentage. Brady has about 120 more yards in 10 more passing attempts, while Rodgers has 2 more TDs in 10 less passing attempts. Neither has been intercepted.

Brady has played one less game but also picked up a lot of pointless junk yards against the Jags when the game was long over (30-3 five minutes into the 3rd quarter), a situation where the Packers always pull Rodgers as they did multiple times last season. Rodgers is playing this without his no.1 WR, who has been replaced by a guy that both the Giants and Raiders deemed not good enough, while his no.3 (D. Adams) has not been 100% and has also missed time.

Basically, it`s splitting hairs between the two of them at this point.

Vandango

Billy86 wrote: »

Not necessarily, no. Brady is 0.1 ahead in YPA while Rodgers is 0.2 ahead in completion percentage.

When one guy is 72.2% and the other is 72.4%, you tend to round it down to the nearest whole number. If it was above .5 you would round it up ect. But work away and make a big deal about a 0.2% difference if you want. Afaic, they're both at 72%.

Billy86 wrote: »

Not necessarily, no. Brady is 0.1 ahead in YPA while Rodgers is 0.2 ahead in completion percentage. Brady has about 120 more yards in 10 more passing attempts, while Rodgers has 2 more TDs in 10 less passing .

Rodgers has 2 more TD's and I'm guessing because he's played one more game than Brady. Rodgers stats are brilliant, but the stats tell us that Brady is completing 10 more passes a game more than him, for the same completion ratio and for more yards and with 0 int's.

bruschi

you know what's weird and wacky? seeing pages and pages of the same bi annual debate, except substitute Manning with Rodgers for the last couple of years. JCTO has set up a thread for this, like every time this thread gets derailed by these debates, and like every other thread that has to be set up to do these debates.

Billy86

Vandango wrote: »

Nobody's disputing the Brady-Gronk connection and what a weapon it is. The point I and others are making is, regardless of Gronk, regardless of Moss, Brady has been doing it all his career, no matter who he has had on the field.

Diverted to the other thread.

AbusesToilets

Putin wrote: »

Keeping it short, Rodgers did nothing against the Seahawks in 2 games last season. Brady did more in just one game, the biggest game of them all - the superbowl. He destroyed one of the best defenses of all time in the 4th quarter the kind of drives Rodgers or Manning couldn't put together against the Seahawks and with Chancellor on the field.

If Rodgers can play at the lever Brady is playing at at 38, maybe he might enter the discussion. But right now the GOAT debate is just between Montana & Brady. And Rodgers would need to seriously improve where it really matters - the postseason.

That 4th Quarter is one, if not the greatest performances from a QB and offense ever, considering the situation, opposition and the intensity.

raze_them_all_

AbusesToilets wrote: »

That 4th Quarter is one, if not the greatest performances from a QB and offense ever, considering the situation, opposition and the intensity.

just so we are clear, brady beat the seahawks, the st and defence did nothing

Billy86

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

just so we are clear, brady beat the seahawks, the st and defence did nothing

That is what I mean about it being a team sport - Brady to be fair played amazing in that fourth quarter and lets not take anything away from that, but the Seahawks went 3-and-out, 3-and-out, interception in their last three drives. Two weeks previous against GB, they went TD, TD (+2pt conversion), TD. Comebacks by absolute definition, have to be a team effort.

Realt Dearg Sec

Lads, ****ing hell, please go to the other thread, this is totally tedious. I keep clocking in expecting to hear something wild or wacky only to find another boring account of who is 70.004% and who is 70.0034% in their completions to people born in February since the reduction in the size of thigh pads or whatever.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

this is totally tedious.

Then stop checking it. Either that or report it to a mod (or become a mod and then tell people what to do).