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Gardai and bystanders injured as teenagers go on a crime rampage

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    #182
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    We can deport them under public policy.

    yeah. i'm sure

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #183
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Re open Spike Island.
    no, no, no, its reopen spike island rabel rabel. of course people fail to realize spike island isn't reopening ever. it was closed for a reason

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #184
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Quite misleading stuff is being posted here about what happened with that Australian deportation. It's not collective punishment at all.

    From what I have read it may have been for breeching the terms of their visas, not because their families committed crimes. Although, individuals who did would face the justice system as well as the Department of Immigration and Border Protection rules. Their family members' activity simply brought them to the attention of authorities who checked for visa compliance.

    They had lawfully held visas, but had 'no work' restrictions on them.

    Australia follows rule of law, just like we do. They did not and will not deport random family members for something that some other family member did.

    What simply happened was the actions of their family members resulted in all their visas being checked as part of a police and Department of Immigration and Border Protection raid.

    That is a *very* different scenario to suggestions that Australian authorities threw out a whole family because of what some of them did. They didn't collectively punish anyone, they simply enforced the T&Cs of their visas which were being breeched, even if the scam hadn't happened you can be deported for working on a visa that specifies 'no work'.

    http://www.irishecho.com.au/2015/01/23/mass-deportation-of-irish-nationals-from-wa/33481

    This crime rampage in Lucan needs to be dealt with. My concern is that the juvenile courts here won't deal with it in a serious enough way given the severity of what happened.
    Regardless of where they're from it's actually a problem with our justice system being unable to hold teens to account for serious crimes in general that is at issue here rather than immigration law.
    That same pattern repeats in most Western / Northern European countries too - teens are almost immune from serious prosecution thus can behave abysmally without any serious threat of sanctions in most countries from what I can see.

    I'm not sure anybody implied this was a case of collective punishment. This case was referenced as part of the argument FOR deporting criminals. I think you've lumped one part of the argument in with the other and assumed we were highlighting this mass deportation as the pinnacle of collective punishment which Ireland should aspire to. I would ask one question though, 7 males are involved in this scam so why are the 21 women and children being deported too?!


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    #185
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    end of the road wrote: »
    yeah. i'm sure

    You are sure of what?


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    #186
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    prizefighter wrote: »
    I'm not sure anybody implied this was a case of collective punishment. This case was referenced as part of the argument FOR deporting criminals. I think you've lumped one part of the argument in with the other and assumed we were highlighting this mass deportation as the pinnacle of collective punishment which Ireland should aspire to. I would ask one question though, 7 males are involved in this scam so why are the 21 women and children being deported too?!

    Living off proceeds of crime. Aussies frown on that kinda carry on. And if you deport the mothers the kids have to go too.


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    #187
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Living off proceeds of crime. Aussies frown on that kinda carry on. And if you deport the mothers the kids have to go too.

    Where does it state that? Also the burden of proof would be on the DIBP to show these women were knowingly using the proceeds of crime to sustain their lifestyle , and feed and clothe their kids etc.


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    #188
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    prizefighter wrote: »
    Where does it state that? Also the burden of proof would be on the DIBP to show these women were knowingly using the proceeds of crime to sustain their lifestyle , and feed and clothe their kids etc.

    Not really you have to have money to move to Aus to support yourself. They can then work out the time you have been there. Then tie that to the lads working and scamming. All against the Visa agreement.


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    #189
    AlanS181824
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭AlanS181824


    Cut their Dole off.

    Disgraceful.


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    #190
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    AlanS181824 wrote: »
    Cut their Dole off.

    Disgraceful.

    16 year olds aren't on the dole.


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    #191
    Tugboats
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭Tugboats


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    16 year olds aren't on the dole.

    And we have the cheek to call ourselves one of the biggest welfare states in the world?. That's a joke I'm writing a letter to the Gov


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    #192
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Not really you have to have money to move to Aus to support yourself. They can then work out the time you have been there. Then tie that to the lads working and scamming. All against the Visa agreement.
    well, if your agenda is to make up stuff to get rid of someone you can. but other then that, its not proof enough

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #193
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    well, if your agenda is to make up stuff to get rid of someone you can. but other then that, its not proof enough

    Read the terms and conditions of visas for Australia esp none working ones. I have lived there for many years so please get your facts straight. And i'm sure the Aussies have plenty of proof their quite good at catching illegals and all that.


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    #194
    reprise
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭reprise


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Read the terms and conditions of visas for Australia esp none working ones. I have lived there for many years so please get your facts straight. And i'm sure the Aussies have plenty of proof there quite good at catching illegals and all that.

    end of the road doesn't really do facts. They're are something of an optional extra to his rants.


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    #195
    AlanS181824
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭AlanS181824


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    16 year olds aren't on the dole.

    Their families I mean.

    Chances are they aren't picking this behaviour out of nowhere.


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    #196
    AndonHandon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭AndonHandon


    Lucan is hardly part of the city; more like the greater Dublin region.


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    #197
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    AlanS181824 wrote: »
    Their families I mean.

    Chances are they aren't picking this behaviour out of nowhere.

    So what, just have their potentially innocent families starve or freeze to death. Ok, that's real civilized. Would you take the same attitude to families of Irish scumbags?


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    #198
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Don't you mean Criminals home, And their family that turn a blind eye to that criminality. At 16 I was not car jacking or punching police. The parents obviously don't care a dam. But i'm waiting to see them on tv going on about butter wont melt. And your right only extends to being in EU countries when you follow the law. Read the EU legislation on this and of grounds to be deported.

    You are just showing your ignorance. Kids can come from perfect homes and still become the worst offenders. You are making an assumption about the family with nothing to back it up.


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    #199
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,411 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, no, no, its reopen spike island rabel rabel. of course people fail to realize spike island isn't reopening ever. it was closed for a reason

    Seems like a good idea to me.


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    #200
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You are just showing your ignorance. Kids can come from perfect homes and still become the worst offenders. You are making an assumption about the family with nothing to back it up.

    You mean just like you ? Are you saying parents are not responsible for the actions of children in their care ?


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    #201
    Tugboats
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭Tugboats


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Read the terms and conditions of visas for Australia esp none working ones. I have lived there for many years so please get your facts straight. And i'm sure the Aussies have plenty of proof their quite good at catching illegals and all that.

    The lad has never left the village. I don't think he will be reading up on visa T&Cs


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    #202
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Read the terms and conditions of visas for Australia esp none working ones. I have lived there for many years so please get your facts straight. And i'm sure the Aussies have plenty of proof their quite good at catching illegals and all that.
    no, they are good if they can catch them. anyone can have proof if they have an agenda

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #203
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    AlanS181824 wrote: »
    Their families I mean.

    Chances are they aren't picking this behaviour out of nowhere.
    cutting off their dole won't change that. it will make the kids turn to more crime costing us more in the long run. if the criminal is in prison and the dole is cut off, then the family will either starve or turn to crime again, costing us even more in the long run. cheeper to keep them on the dole

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #204
    prizefighter
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭prizefighter


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Read the terms and conditions of visas for Australia esp none working ones. I have lived there for many years so please get your facts straight. And i'm sure the Aussies have plenty of proof their quite good at catching illegals and all that.

    I still live in Australia and would wager I've had many more dealings with DIBP than you have, but what I'm trying to figure out is what sort of visa lets 28 people including children into the country with no work rights. If the adult males didn't have work rights how could they bring their families over? If they are on tourist visas then they would have to show substantial financial assets to sustain 28 people. This is the crux of my argument, if they were allowed into oz on a tourist visa they would be assumed not to be working and have money to live, so just because the 7 men were caught scamming doesn't necessarily mean the women and children lived off the proceeds of their crimes.


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    #205
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Seems like a good idea to me.
    well, its not happening. it was closed because it was difficult to run and costly and it was to remote and on an island. its a non runner

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #206
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    end of the road wrote: »
    no, they are good if they can catch them. anyone can have proof if they have an agenda

    What does that even mean ? If they have legally requested and been supplied bank statements and alike and have proven for example this came from the proceeds of crime how is that an agenda.


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    #207
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    AlanS181824 wrote: »
    Their families I mean.

    Chances are they aren't picking this behaviour out of nowhere.

    Any proof their families are claiming benefit?


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    #208
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    end of the road wrote: »
    well, its not happening. it was closed because it was difficult to run and costly and it was to remote and on an island. its a non runner

    Hence the name

    SPIKE ISLAND :rolleyes:


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    #209
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,027 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Hence the name

    SPIKE ISLAND :rolleyes:
    yeah, it was still closed for a reason though

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #210
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,457 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    end of the road wrote: »
    yeah, it was still closed for a reason though


    Easy to reopen


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    #211
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    You mean just like you ? Are you saying parents are not responsible for the actions of children in their care ?

    Depends. If you are talking about a 9 year old then yeah. If you are talking about a 16 or 17 year old then it's easier said than done. Like I said, the best parents can still have a bad child.


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