Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

foggy_lad

Calina wrote: »

I see.

That's quite obnoxious behaviour, demanding compensation from another passenger who has evidence that they reserved the seat. I hope I never meet you on a train.

Not demanding anything from any other passenger but if IR have sold a person the seat I am sitting in and have failed to mark the seat as sold or reserved then they will have to buy it from me if they want to give it to the other person.

I rather like the TGV set up. The more I read your posts, the more I'm thinking may be we need it. All seats require reservations.

They manage to do this even for walk up on the day ticket purchases. Buy a ticket, get an assigned seat.

End of confusion and no need for you to dance the fandango you've outlined above about demanding to be compensated for moving from your non-prebooked seat.

This type of system would be fantastic and would sort out all the overcrowding on intercity trains but many people will be left on the platforms and Can you ever see IR managing to do this without daily Hourly screw-ups?

foggy_lad

Calina wrote: »

I'm an extremely reasonable person and take the view that if someone shows me their seat reservation, I will accept they have a reserved seat and will vacate it accordingly. This is what reasonable people do.

Reasonable people assume that once you've actually made a seat reservation, the seat is reserved.

In other words, I don't think you're being reasonable here.

I feel it is reasonable to expect that if I board a train (especially a longer distance train) and take a seat which is not reserved or in any way marked as booked or sold that I should be allowed to enjoy the comfort of that seat for the duration of my journey without being turfed out and told to find another seat or stand by a stranger with a piece of paper or any staff member.

This is an issue we will have to disagree on but an issue that would disappear altogether if the company were to get their house/trains in order and fix their broken reservations system or scrap it altogether.

end of the road

neckedit wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.

and right there is the problem......Not Irish Rail, not the guy/girl with the ticket,
This attitude.....absolutely horrible and ridiculous!

it is irish rails problem for not bothering to ensure that there is clear proof of a seat reservation, either by bothering to ensure the electronic displays are working properly or putting a piece of written paper on the window with the relevant details.

Calina

foggy_lad wrote: »

I feel it is reasonable to expect that if I board a train (especially a longer distance train) and take a seat which is not reserved or in any way marked as booked or sold that I should be allowed to enjoy the comfort of that seat for the duration of my journey without being turfed out and told to find another seat or stand by a stranger with a piece of paper or any staff member.

It is not reasonable if someone has clear evidence that they have booked the seat.

foggy_lad wrote: »

This is an issue we will have to disagree on but an issue that would disappear altogether if the company were to get their house/trains in order and fix their broken reservations system or scrap it altogether.

Probably you should just not travel by Irish Rail as you don't appear to rate it as an experience. I've never had issues with their reservation system, and I've only once had an issue with a train replacement. As a service, it is a monumental improvement in the last 10 years, and, just to pick up on another of your posts, they do not have hourly or daily screw ups. The vast majority of their intercity trains are on time.

ezra_pound

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not demanding anything from any other passenger but if IR have sold a person the seat I am sitting in and have failed to mark the seat as sold or reserved then they will have to buy it from me if they want to give it to the other person.
This type of system would be fantastic and would sort out all the overcrowding on intercity trains but many people will be left on the platforms and Can you ever see IR managing to do this without daily Hourly screw-ups?

Sorry but if you want that exclusive claim over a seat on a service which provides reservations, you must reserve that seat. If you want that degree of exclusivity, then reserve a seat.

ezra_pound

foggy_lad wrote: »

whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.
all trains should have all reserved seats from their departure station marked clearly with the persons name or initials etc also all other reservations from other stations en route must be marked from the departure station as "reserved from" and the station the reservation is valid from.

Why should you compensated? You didn't reserve a seat. The reserver should be able to seek compensation from you if you wish to deprive them of the seat which they have an exclusive right to for that specific duration.

You didn't pay for reservation so you have no right to that seat.

end of the road

ezra_pound wrote: »

The reserver should be able to seek compensation from you if you wish to deprive them of the seat which they have an exclusive right to for that specific duration.

no they shouldn't. it should be only from irish rail as its their fault the seat wasn't clearly marked as reserved

Wang King

foggy_lad wrote: »

whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.
all trains should have all reserved seats from their departure station marked clearly with the persons name or initials etc also all other reservations from other stations en route must be marked from the departure station as "reserved from" and the station the reservation is valid from.

I'm afraid not, the contract is with the booking customer and the company...you are not involved.
if you sit in a seat that has been prebooked, whether it is displayed or not is irrelevant, a pre-existing contract exists and you have to move ,

Pretzill

And if you book online (as I'm sure many do now as the costs are less) you have no alternative but to prebook a seat - you must.

Personally I'd rather take an available seat when boarding to me there is little benefit to having my seat as in most cases I travel offpeak on quieter routes.

But it's simple name/number above your seat noone will sit on it or move when you approach - in the event of the system not showing and few seats available politely ask the person to move - show ticket. I'm sure most people won't eject others if their name isn't shown and there are other seats available. I also find most people are courteous on the trains I travel on.

To demand reimbursement because you've been asked to vacate a seat you did not prebook is ludicrous. To ring the gardai as the lady in the OP did is extreme - had the man been in anyway agressive I would say fairplay to her but that doesn't seem to be the case which makes it time wasting and sourgrapes.

Losty Dublin

Calina wrote: »

I'm an extremely reasonable person and take the view that if someone shows me their seat reservation, I will accept they have a reserved seat and will vacate it accordingly. This is what reasonable people do.

Reasonable people assume that once you've actually made a seat reservation, the seat is reserved.

In other words, I don't think you're being reasonable here.

Just by way of reference in relation to pre booking seats on trains.

A ticket booked on line assures you the reservation of a seat on a specified journey. A ticket booked at a station merely gets you from A to B on the day. This has always been the case on trains, even before the days of online bookings. Unless you actually booked a seat then you don't have the right to any seat.

While the displays should work, the fact that they may not work doesn't mean that somebody else hasn't booked that seat. It certainly doesn't mean that you get priority over them; if anything the opposite is the case as they reserved and the walk on passenger didn't.

neckedit

end of the road wrote: »

neckedit wrote: »

it is irish rails problem for not bothering to ensure that there is clear proof of a seat reservation, either by bothering to ensure the electronic displays are working properly or putting a piece of written paper on the window with the relevant details.

Irish rails problem yes ultimately, But the ticket holder will have proof.....ON THE TICKET!! but with this attitude Foggy makes it his problem very very quickly,can you imagine being so obtuse to some one,

Ticket Holder " Hey, excuse me, you seem to be in my seat
Foggy "There was no piece of paper or name on the seat"
TH " Ok, sign thing must be broke, anyway..here is my ticket"
Foggy "don't care your name wasn't on it"
TH " Eh....**Sniggers abit** okay...I booked it and its clearly printed on my ticket"
Foggy "|This seat was not reserved when I boarded the train, so irish Rail have failed us both!! I demand compensation before I give you this seat"
TH "mmmm ok......Good luck with that, and with the rest of your life......."

ezra_pound

end of the road wrote: »

no they shouldn't. it should be only from irish rail as its their fault the seat wasn't clearly marked as reserved

No. The offending sitter is depriving the entitled reserved seat ticket holder of their exclusive right to the seat in question.

end of the road

Wang King wrote: »

I'm afraid not, the contract is with the booking customer and the company...you are not involved.
if you sit in a seat that has been prebooked, whether it is displayed or not is irrelevant, a pre-existing contract exists and you have to move ,

he doesn't have to move at all. doesn't matter who the contract is with. if irish rail refuses to make clear that a seat is reserved they are the ones who have broken the contract as they haven't ensured the reserved seat is occupied. they can easily resolve this by bothering to ensure the electronic displays are working and maintained properly, or having a written piece of paper with the details. as irish rail refuse to take responsibility for almost everything then foggys viewpoint is legitimate

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Just by way of reference in relation to pre booking seats on trains.

A ticket booked on line assures you the reservation of a seat on a specified journey. A ticket booked at a station merely gets you from A to B on the day. This has always been the case on trains, even before the days of online bookings. Unless you actually booked a seat then you don't have the right to any seat.

While the displays should work, the fact that they may not work doesn't mean that somebody else hasn't booked that seat. It certainly doesn't mean that you get priority over them; if anything the opposite is the case as they reserved and the walk on passenger didn't.

a written pice of paper with the details on the window like old times and someone actually on the train rather then expecting the driver to deal with peoples issues would solve all this

feelgoodinc27

foggy_lad wrote: »

I feel it is reasonable to expect that if I board a train (especially a longer distance train) and take a seat which is not reserved or in any way marked as booked or sold that I should be allowed to enjoy the comfort of that seat for the duration of my journey without being turfed out and told to find another seat or stand by a stranger with a piece of paper or any staff member.

This is an issue we will have to disagree on but an issue that would disappear altogether if the company were to get their house/trains in order and fix their broken reservations system or scrap it altogether.

Irish Rail have alot to answer for sure, but thats no excuse for ignorance. If someone asks you to move from a reserved seat, especially for a long journey, they should not have to put up with any intimidating behaviour or childish nonsense like "its mine cos I got to the seat first".

end of the road

neckedit wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

Irish rails problem yes ultimately, But the ticket holder will have proof.....ON THE TICKET!! but with this attitude Foggy makes it his problem very very quickly,can you imagine being so obtuse to some one,

Ticket Holder " Hey, excuse me, you seem to be in my seat
Foggy "There was no piece of paper or name on the seat"
TH " Ok, sign thing must be broke, anyway..here is my ticket"
Foggy "don't care your name wasn't on it"
TH " Eh....**Sniggers abit** okay...I booked it and its clearly printed on my ticket"
Foggy "|This seat was not reserved when I boarded the train, so irish Rail have failed us both!! I demand compensation before I give you this seat"
TH "mmmm ok......Good luck with that, and with the rest of your life......."

well, a piece of written paper on the window with the details would help in the event the electronic displays don't work. irish rails misshandling of this means foggy does have a legitimate point

Wang King

end of the road wrote: »

he doesn't have to move at all. doesn't matter who the contract is with. if irish rail refuses to make clear that a seat is reserved they are the ones who have broken the contract as they haven't ensured the reserved seat is occupied. they can easily resolve this by bothering to ensure the electronic displays are working and maintained properly, or having a written piece of paper with the details. as irish rail refuse to take responsibility for almost everything then foggys viewpoint is legitimate

I'm afraid not.
The persons ticket is the proof of binding contract. If your ticket doesn't show the seat number, you don't have the right to sit there.

end of the road

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. The offending sitter is depriving the entitled reserved seat ticket holder of their exclusive right to the seat in question.

no . its irish rails fault for not displaying the seat as reserved that someone has sat in it meaning the reserver can't. if irish rail displayed clearly that the seat was reserved then there wouldn't be an issue

Wang King

end of the road wrote: »

no . its irish rails fault for not displaying the seat as reserved that someone has sat in it meaning the reserver can't. if irish rail displayed clearly that the seat was reserved then there wouldn't be an issue

Irrelevant

end of the road

Wang King wrote: »

I'm afraid not.
The persons ticket is the proof of binding contract. If your ticket doesn't show the seat number, you don't have the right to sit there.

i'm afraid yes. if irish rail don't ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved, then foggy sitting there occupying the seat is irish rails fault

end of the road

Wang King wrote: »

Irrelevant

not irrelevant. its relevant. its irish rails fault for not bothering to ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved.

Mrsmum

I have been on both sides of the argument. I live in Dublin and regularly travel with two youngish children by train to Killarney to visit my family. Mostly I book prepaid tickets and have often arrived on the train to be told a carriage is missing and therefore it's free for all. On other occasions for example during the summer hols I prefer to have some flexibility as to when i'm returning so tend not to prebook the tickets. Many times I have chosen a seat that gave no indication it belonged to anyone else, my children and I will then settle down and spread out our books, food, laptops etc. We arrive at Mallow or worse Thurles and a couple get on telling us we are in their seats. Their names may or may not have suddenly appeared above our heads. My problem with this is that we have now to move but all available three seats together are taken so not only do we have the hassle of moving all our stuff but we are now in a far worse situation than we were in Killarney where we had lots of choice. (hope people understand this scenario). I don't think that is really fair considering it costs around €150 for the privilage. I understand the prebooked ticket holder has first dibs but think it should definately be clear to everyone else that the seat has a prior clain on it from the start. This has happened so many times that I now feel edgy wondering will I be aked to move on any journey. It's especially difficult with children.

Wang King

end of the road wrote: »

not irrelevant. its relevant. its irish rails fault for not bothering to ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved.

The contract is between the purchaser of the ticket and Irish rail. Everything else is! irrelevant, be it somebody ignoring the sign, or the sign malfunctioning .

Slutmonkey57b

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not demanding anything from any other passenger but if IR have sold a person the seat I am sitting in and have failed to mark the seat as sold or reserved then they will have to buy it from me if they want to give it to the other person.

So you "own" the seat you're sitting in? Have you got proof of ownership, such as... I don't know... The seat number printed on your ticket?

No?

It's a free for all for seats, anyone who barges their way on first at the first station gets the seat, then they auction it off?

You get up to go to the toilet, someone takes the seat and you've "lost" it, have you?

Sorry but "nya nya I'm selfish" isn't much of an argument in this situation and you come off looking like a fool, much like the lady in the op.

feelgoodinc27

Mrsmum wrote: »

I have been on both sides of the argument. I live in Dublin and regularly travel with two youngish children by train to Killarney to visit my family. Mostly I book prepaid tickets and have often arrived on the train to be told a carriage is missing and therefore it's free for all. On other occasions for example during the summer hols I prefer to have some flexibility as to when i'm returning so tend not to prebook the tickets. Many times I have chosen a seat that gave no indication it belonged to anyone else, my children and I will then settle down and spread out our books, food, laptops etc. We arrive at Mallow or worse Thurles and a couple get on telling us we are in their seats. Their names may or may not have suddenly appeared above our heads. My problem with this is that we have now to move but all available three seats together are taken so not only do we have the hassle of moving all our stuff but we are now in a far worse situation than we were in Killarney where we had lots of choice. (hope people understand this scenario). I don't think that is really fair considering it costs around €150 for the privilage. I understand the prebooked ticket holder has first dibs but think it should definately be clear to everyone else that the seat has a prior clain on it from the start. This has happened so many times that I now feel edgy wondering will I be aked to move on any journey. It's especially difficult with children.

If you don't have a booking head to the end of the train, for Cork-Dublin the last carriage (maybe more) is open seating. I don't know if that applies to the Tralee-Dublin train.

end of the road

Wang King wrote: »

The contract is between the purchaser of the ticket and Irish rail. Everything else is! irrelevant, be it somebody ignoring the sign, or the sign malfunctioning .

no its not irrelevant. irish rail have broken the contract by not bothering to ensure the seat wasn't occupied. its irish rails duty to ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved, if they don't and someone sits in it thats irish rails fault.

poeticmakaveli

by the sounds of it,the person who pays more money at the station has less rights & benefits so!!
it's a funnly old country!!

Calina

end of the road wrote: »

no its not irrelevant. irish rail have broken the contract by not bothering to ensure the seat wasn't occupied. its irish rails duty to ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved, if they don't and someone sits in it thats irish rails fault.

It's your responsibility to vacate a seat when it is pointed out to you that it is pre-booked by someone else. Irish Rail ask you to do this. Hiding behind "but it's not marked" when someone has a ticket with the seat number in their hands is actually irresponsible and makes it your fault, not Irish Rail's fault.

Wang King

end of the road wrote: »

no its not irrelevant. irish rail have broken the contract by not bothering to ensure the seat wasn't occupied. its irish rails duty to ensure the seat is clearly marked reserved, if they don't and someone sits in it thats irish rails fault.

No, im afraid once again you are incorrect

Any contract of sale is between the purchaser and the seller. Nothing more

When boarding an airplane, where is your name printed? on your seat ? On the window?... Eh?

Mrsmum

Thanks for that, Feelgood. Will check into it.