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Woman asked to move from pre-booked seat calls Gardai

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    #62
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You are wrong, this is ALL that matters!

    The seat is not reserved until such time that Irish Rail place a notice on or above the seat to notify all passengers that the seat is reserved either from the departure station or reserved from X Y or Z station en route.

    It would also appear from Irish Rail tweets to a twitter user who might be the person on the train that she was inviting Irish rail to have staff check her seat and see that there was no notification of any reservation!

    If the seat was indeed not reserved this unfortunate woman will have a definite case against Irish Rail!

    Foggy, is this law? Why are you so insistent on this?

    The Irish Rail charter states
    Discounts if we fail to give you the service you pay forIf the seat you reserved is not available and there is no other available seat of the same standard on the same train, we will refund you the fare of your single journey in travel vouchers.

    this is the only reference I can find to their reservations policy on the charter and it's pretty unclear as to what the procedure is when there are seats of the same standard available - is it up to the person who booked the seat to take one of the available seats are is that onus on the person sitting in the booked seat.

    Cinemas and theatres don't have to let customers know that seats are reserved is it a travel thing only?


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    #63
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    You are wrong, this is ALL that matters!

    The seat is not reserved until such time that Irish Rail place a notice on or above the seat to notify all passengers that the seat is reserved either from the departure station or reserved from X Y or Z station en route.

    It would also appear from Irish Rail tweets to a twitter user who might be the person on the train that she was inviting Irish rail to have staff check her seat and see that there was no notification of any reservation!

    If the seat was indeed not reserved this unfortunate woman will have a definite case against Irish Rail!

    This is utter drivel. The reservation exists from the point in time that the passenger makes it online as part of their booking. Bearing in mind that Irish Rail charges people on FTPs for the privilege of reserving a seat, you are saying they are charging people for nothing in the event that a seat map is not loaded on to a train. You can only assume a seat is not booked if some bookings are shown on the train but this seat does not have a name or ticket number against it. If no bookings at all are shown, then you cannot assume this. My guess is that no bookings at all were shown owing to a system issue on the train. But specific seats were still sold on that train in advance and passengers in general have proof of those reservations, proof issued by Irish Rail, as it happens.

    I've had one incident where a train was changed leading to a missing carriage. I'm inclined to be understanding in that case as it's unusual. I don't have a lot of understanding for people who don't book, in the face of being shown proof of reservation on the part of someone who did book, calling the gardai. The train staff should be the first port of call.

    I'm not getting the vibe that she's unfortunate in any respect.

    I'd also like to see evidence that people with reserved seats have to take them up 20 minutes in advance. The only comment I see on the matter with the Irish Rail site is that all passengers for mainline intercity should be there 30 minutes in advance.

    The irony is I really think that recently, there is evidence that Irish people are handling train travel a bit better than was the case 20 years ago. There is no tendency to massive queues out the doors of the station, and far fewer trains where people are standing for a whole intercity journey, for example.


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    #64
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    it's common sense really, how are people to know NOT to sit in a seat if it is NOT marked in some way as reserved?

    snip image as not requoting

    Well if someone has a booking, that's usually a clue and most reasonable people would accept that, particularly if they recognise that, perhaps, the seatmap was not loaded for the train, a rare but not impossible event.

    I don't have an issue with giving up my seat to someone who has a ticket demonstrating that they've booked it.

    Are you telling me you would?


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    #65
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    it's common sense really, how are people to know NOT to sit in a seat if it is NOT marked in some way as reserved?

    also ftrom the horses mouth
    338084.PNG

    I'd take the conditions of carriage over a tweet interpreting something potentially out of context.

    What you keep stating as a fact appears to be more of a personal opinion.


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    #66
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Graham wrote: »
    I'd take the conditions of carriage over a tweet interpreting something potentially out of context.

    What you keep stating as a fact appears to be more of a personal opinion.

    I think it's on the assumption that the full reservation records were loaded successfully to the train. Which is not always a case. Typically, if they are loaded, you can assume a seat is unreserved if there's no name for it. If they're not, I'd usually assume some sort of system problem.


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    #67
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    From reading Irish Rail's replies to tweets from a twitter user who may be the person from the train it does appear that there is doubt over whether the names were actually displayed over the seats and if that is the case she has every right to sit in any free seat.

    Until such time as the person claiming its their seat shows here the ticket with the number on it, at which point she should promptly fup off out of it.

    Much like if the cinema has assigned seating, you don't just sit there saying "I don't see your name on it"


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    #68
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Calina wrote: »
    I'd usually assume some sort of system problem.

    Same here and would have no problem vacating a seat if another passenger could clearly demonstrate they had a reservation for the seat I occupied.


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    #69
    FunLover18
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    it's common sense really, how are people to know NOT to sit in a seat if it is NOT marked in some way as reserved?

    also ftrom the horses mouth
    338084.PNG

    Twitter isn't exactly a detailed bye-law, is it?

    Common sense is that if one person has a seat number on their ticket and another person doesn't then the first person clearly has more right to sit in said seat regardless of whether IR have made it known the seat is booked.


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    #70
    Hrududu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    foggy_lad wrote: »

    What happens in other places where seats are on a first up best dressed basis unless you specifically reserve a seat? it is up to the management and staff to mark seats as reserved and failure to do that means the seats can be used by any other person?

    I've never been in a cinema where this could happen. Either the screen is general admittance for every seat or all seats are assigned. If someone shows up with a ticket with a seat number on it and asks you to move then your ticket will also have a seat number on it and you can move there.


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    #71
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    No no no, you are not seeing the problem!

    The seat has not been reserved! The seat has only been reserved when irish rail give notice to passengers that this seat is reserved, they do this be the electronic signs or by placing a paper sign on the seat or sometimes by closing off a carriage(for groups like Railtours). ?

    The seat is reserved as soon as the person buys and reserves it. They can come or go from that seat whenever suits them, its their seat.


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    #72
    Pretzill
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭Pretzill


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    Twitter isn't exactly a detailed bye-law, is it?

    Common sense is that if one person has a seat number on their ticket and another person doesn't then the first person clearly has more right to sit in said seat regardless of whether IR have made it known the seat is booked.

    Exactly and it's only a matter of the ticket checker from Irish Rail confirming it - if someone is beligerant enough not to believe you with ticket in hand. I don't understand why people get so gaurded over their seat as in most cases and I know the 17;05 train on Sligo may be an exception - Sligo/Dublin train has normally available seats.


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    #73
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    it's common sense really, how are people to know NOT to sit in a seat if it is NOT marked in some way as reserved?
    ]

    They cant. So the proper thing to do is when someone turns up and shows you their ticket with the seat number on it is to say "ok, no problem , here you go" and move.

    Should someone be able to just take your seat when you go to the toilet if the name isn't there and that's just tough?


    If the electronic system isn't working (electronics have been known to occasionally fail) , is it then a free for all? cage rules apply?


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    #74
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Calina wrote: »
    far fewer trains where people are standing for a whole intercity journey, for example.

    because the trains are so short that many have left for other alternatives due to being squashed in like sardines. or maybe thats just the waterford line

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #75
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    FunLover18 wrote: »
    Foggy, is this law? Why are you so insistent on this?

    The Irish Rail charter states



    this is the only reference I can find to their reservations policy on the charter and it's pretty unclear as to what the procedure is when there are seats of the same standard available - is it up to the person who booked the seat to take one of the available seats are is that onus on the person sitting in the booked seat.

    Cinemas and theatres don't have to let customers know that seats are reserved is it a travel thing only?
    To reserve
    1. To keep back, as for future use or for a special purpose: The hospital reserves certain drugs for the most serious cases.
    2. To set or cause to be set apart for a particular person or use: reserved a seat on the next flight out. See Synonyms at book1.
    So a reservation involves keeping something aside or set apart from the rest which IR are failing to do on some trains.

    Yes it is up to the person who booked a seat to seek another seat and if none are available they will get a refund for that leg of their journey, this would only be the case where seats were not marked as reserved though, otherwise the person should seek out a member of staff and have the trespasser removed from their reserved seat.

    Calina wrote: »
    Well if someone has a booking, that's usually a clue and most reasonable people would accept that, particularly if they recognise that, perhaps, the seatmap was not loaded for the train, a rare but not impossible event.

    I don't have an issue with giving up my seat to someone who has a ticket demonstrating that they've booked it.

    Are you telling me you would?
    If I have a flier for SuperValu stating that all roast beef is only €1/kg today and I go to the store and there is no roasts marked at that price then I don't eat a roast for my supper, I have a promise of a roast just as the passenger has a promise or invitation to sit in a reserved seat but until such time as the roast is marked down or the seat marked as reserved on the train then no offer or reservation exists.


    From the conditions of carriage,
    http://www.irishrail.ie/media/conditionsoftravel1.pdf?v=ge3dnca
    43. Reservations of seats on trains.
    43.1 Iarnród Éireann (in addition to its rights by common law, statute, contract or
    otherwise) reserves the right to assign to passengers the seats, which they
    are to occupy.
    43.2 A passenger shall not occupy a seat reserved for or assigned by Iarnród
    Éireann     to another passenger.
    The bolded part is important as it means that the reservation does not exist until such time as Iarnród Éireann reserve the actual seat for the passenger.


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    #76
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Until such time as the person claiming its their seat shows here the ticket with the number on it, at which point she should promptly fup off out of it.

    Much like if the cinema has assigned seating, you don't just sit there saying "I don't see your name on it"
    this is not a cinema. so its irrelevant. the trains have electronic displays. they should be working at all times. if not a written paper with the name stuck to the window that the seat is reserved. up to irish rail to take some responsibility for this as well as the person who reserved the seat. all well and good having a ticket as proof but if irish rail have nothing to prove it from their side then its not surprising people don't move.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #77
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Hrududu wrote: »
    I've never been in a cinema where this could happen. Either the screen is general admittance for every seat or all seats are assigned. If someone shows up with a ticket with a seat number on it and asks you to move then your ticket will also have a seat number on it and you can move there.
    again, what goes on in the cinema is irrelevant. to completely different things with different systems to carry out seat reservations

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #78
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    They cant. So the proper thing to do is when someone turns up and shows you their ticket with the seat number on it is to say "ok, no problem , here you go" and move.

    Should someone be able to just take your seat when you go to the toilet if the name isn't there and that's just tough?


    If the electronic system isn't working (electronics have been known to occasionally fail) , is it then a free for all? cage rules apply?
    or stay where you are until a person of authority from irish rail proves the seat is reserved

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #79
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    end of the road wrote: »
    or stay where you are until a person of authority from irish rail proves the seat is reserved

    Why? Can you not read the ticket yourself?

    Whats the point of a ticket at all if you need an employee to show you everything? Do you do that on planes? Just sit where you want till a member of cabin crew comes and makes you move?


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    #80
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    end of the road wrote: »
    this is not a cinema. so its irrelevant. the trains have electronic displays. they should be working at all times. if not a written paper with the name stuck to the window that the seat is reserved. up to irish rail to take some responsibility for this as well as the person who reserved the seat. all well and good having a ticket as proof but if irish rail have nothing to prove it from their side then its not surprising people don't move.

    I see foggy has thanked your post. Cinema analogies seemed fine for him (and you presumably seeing as you thanked his) when he didn't think cinemas used assigned seating. Those goalposts will leave a lot of holes in the ground if they are moved any more times.


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    #81
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The bolded part is important as it means that the reservation does not exist until such time as Iarnród Éireann reserve the actual seat for the passenger.

    Eh, that's your interpretation of that bolded piece. However, I don't think it does actually mean the physical seat uniquely. The seat is reserved from the time the booking is created.

    Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


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    #82
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    end of the road wrote: »
    or stay where you are until a person of authority from irish rail proves the seat is reserved

    So are we agreed that calling the Garda Siochana first is not the appropriate response to someone asking you to vacate the seat for which they have proof they reserved?


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    #83
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Often they are only shown AFTER the train has left the station the reservation starts from, so reserve from Maynooth and your reservation doesn't show till train leaves Maynooth station en route to Enfield

    The 20 minute rule harks back to the days of porters and people arriving with large carriage trunks etc which needed to be loaded in the guards van for the journey as they were shown to their reserved First or Second class seats.

    Absolute rubbish...that is not still applicable

    No no no, you are not seeing the problem!

    The seat has not been reserved! The seat has only been reserved when irish rail give notice to passengers that this seat is reserved, they do this be the electronic signs or by placing a paper sign on the seat or sometimes by closing off a carriage(for groups like Railtours).

    Say No as much as you want...you are still wrong....the seat is reserved once i pay for it online.my tickets tells me it is prebooked.
    If the person sitting in my seat was unaware of that...no panic, Just move if and when asked and don't make a pissy scene about it.


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    #84
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    I see foggy has thanked your post. Cinema analogies seemed fine for him (and you presumably seeing as you thanked his) when he didn't think cinemas used assigned seating.

    no . me thanking his post doesn't mean i find the cinema analogy fine.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #85
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Calina wrote: »
    So are we agreed that calling the Garda Siochana first is not the appropriate response to someone asking you to vacate the seat for which they have proof they reserved?
    yes. unless the person asking her to move was acting in an extreme or threatening manner meaning waiting for an irish rail staff member wouldn't be appropriate

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #86
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Calina wrote: »
    I think it's on the assumption that the full reservation records were loaded successfully to the train. Which is not always a case. Typically, if they are loaded, you can assume a seat is unreserved if there's no name for it. If they're not, I'd usually assume some sort of system problem.
    whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Until such time as the person claiming its their seat shows here the ticket with the number on it, at which point she should promptly fup off out of it.

    Much like if the cinema has assigned seating, you don't just sit there saying "I don't see your name on it"
    all trains should have all reserved seats from their departure station marked clearly with the persons name or initials etc also all other reservations from other stations en route must be marked from the departure station as "reserved from" and the station the reservation is valid from.


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    #87
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.

    I see.

    That's quite obnoxious behaviour, demanding compensation from another passenger who has evidence that they reserved the seat. I hope I never meet you on a train.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    all trains should have all reserved seats from their departure station marked clearly with the persons name or initials etc also all other reservations from other stations en route must be marked from the departure station as "reserved from" and the station the reservation is valid from.

    I rather like the TGV set up. The more I read your posts, the more I'm thinking may be we need it. All seats require reservations.

    They manage to do this even for walk up on the day ticket purchases. Buy a ticket, get an assigned seat.

    End of confusion and no need for you to dance the fandango you've outlined above about demanding to be compensated for moving from your non-prebooked seat.


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    #88
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Calina wrote: »
    Eh, that's your interpretation of that bolded piece. However, I don't think it does actually mean the physical seat uniquely. The seat is reserved from the time the booking is created.

    Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

    I believe and feel any reasonable person will feel the same that the seat can not be considered reserved until such time that Irish Rail inform all passengers that the seat is reserved! how else are passengers going to know that it is reserved? we are not psychic.


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    #89
    poeticmakaveli
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭poeticmakaveli


    foggy_lad wrote:
    The passenger who has the reservation then has the opportunity to seek redress from Irish Rail for failing to reserve their seat, they have no gripe or case to take against an innocent passenger who has sat in a free seat!


    Exactly! The person who reserved it should simply contact Irish rail staff and let them deal with it!
    I mean its Irish rail who are giving these online reservations offer so why should they let others to fight it out!
    I think its unfair too,that if my mother (who can't use a computer or phone proper) decides to go to Dublin via train and pays the full fare at the station, but the clever younger more up to date person with this kind of thing can pre book at a cheaper rate from the leisure of their phone and take her seat and probably embarass her at the same time of getting out of it!
    The expensive fares Irish rail are charging people,they should have a full time escort employed to sort out these situations very quickly!
    Myself and the girlfriend went on the train from longford to dublin last week to see a concert, we were staying over night but we have to get a monthly return at €40 each! let me tell you,if I was told to get out of that chair for that money they would have a job doing it!!
    They need a better approach about this!


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    #90
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I believe and feel any reasonable person will feel the same that the seat can not be considered reserved until such time that Irish Rail inform all passengers that the seat is reserved! how else are passengers going to know that it is reserved? we are not psychic.

    I'm an extremely reasonable person and take the view that if someone shows me their seat reservation, I will accept they have a reserved seat and will vacate it accordingly. This is what reasonable people do.

    Reasonable people assume that once you've actually made a seat reservation, the seat is reserved.

    In other words, I don't think you're being reasonable here.


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    #91
    neckedit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭neckedit


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    whether the system works partly or not at all if I board a train and take a seat which is not marked as reserved from that station or any point on my journey I will not be moved by anyone without them compensating me for the loss of the seat.

    and right there is the problem......Not Irish Rail, not the guy/girl with the ticket,
    This attitude.....absolutely horrible and ridiculous!


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