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Kelly hits out at Irish domestic scene
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Juan More Time wrote: »Personally I think Sean Kelly should put some of his money where his mouth is, and spend some of his millions on a fund or outreach program to provide equipment and coaching to youngsters from less well off back rounds. Otherwise we loose these tough kids to sports like boxing and mixed martial arts/ cage fighting..
Sorry but thats Absolute and utter tosh!
Sean Kelly has done an incredible amount of work in this country for cycling. Even just his involvement alone in the an post team as an example. Go down to dungarvan to the SKT and say that and see where it gets you....
Also from your posts on this u seem to think that all the juniors need to harden up a bit and blame it all on them taking the easy life and get college degrees etc, nonsense. Young fellas either like the bike or they don't if they don't they often play other sports instead. I dunno where your getting all this class based pseudo socialist nonsense from. You advocate cutting CI licence fees and want "millionaires"like Sean Kelly to fund getting working class young people into cycling? Nonsense0 -
Juan More Time wrote: »Well I have seen Kelly's castle and it's a large mansion surrounded by high walls and electric gates. The garage/trophy room alone is considerably larger than yer average executive type residence.. I guess it's a house befitting a former international sports star.. Suffice to say Sean isn't short of a few bob:rolleyes:
And he was the best cyclist in the world I think he is entitled to it.0 -
pedro_colnago wrote: »Juan More Time wrote: »Personally I think Sean Kelly should put some of his money where his mouth is, and spend some of his millions on a fund or outreach program to provide equipment and coaching to youngsters from less well off back rounds. Otherwise we loose these tough kids to sports like boxing and mixed martial arts/ cage fighting0
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Juan More Time wrote: »Maybe Sean Kelly is right, and the younger generation with the exception of Eddie Dunbar are a bunch of ambition less wussies who spend far too much time on facebook instead of riding their bikes in the rain....
There's lots of juniors hammering themselves on crappy roads, in crappy weather - if you were in a good club you would know this and know some of them0 -
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Juan More Time wrote: »Maybe Sean Kelly is right, and the younger generation with the exception of Eddie Dunbar are a bunch of ambition less wussies who spend far too much time on facebook instead of riding their bikes in the rain....
You're clearly a wind up merchant. Good luck. Can't be listening to your pseudo socialist nonsense anymore.0 -
pedro_colnago wrote: »pedro_colnago wrote: »Juan More Time wrote: »Personally I think Sean Kelly should put some of his money where his mouth is, and spend some of his millions on a fund or outreach program to provide equipment and coaching to youngsters from less well off back rounds. Otherwise we loose these tough kids to sports like boxing and mixed martial arts/ cage fighting
Sorry but thats Absolute and utter tosh!
Sean Kelly has done an incredible amount of work in this country for cycling. Even just his involvement alone in the an post team as an example. Go down to dungarvan to the SKT and say that and see where it gets you....
Also from your posts on this u seem to think that all the juniors need to harden up a bit and blame it all on them taking the easy life and get college degrees etc, nonsense. Young fellas either like the bike or they don't if they don't they often play other sports instead. I dunno where your getting all this class based pseudo socialist nonsense from. You advocate cutting CI licence fees and want "millionaires"like Sean Kelly to fund getting working class young people into cycling? Nonsense0 -
Join Date:Posts: 70397
If you have a problem with a post or poster, report the post and leave the modding to the modspedro_colnago wrote: »You're clearly a wind up merchant. Good luck. Can't be listening to your pseudo socialist nonsense anymore.
Any questions, PM me - do not respond to mod instructions in-thread
Thanks
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1. Sean Kelly earned every cent the hard way through sheer guts, determination and talent, and he deserves every moment of the affluent lifestyle he enjoys today. He lives in a mansion as lots of retired international sports stars do. I find it quite bemusing why people become uncomfortable when I point this out?
2. Competitive cycling has changed totally as a sport since 1994 (the year Sean Kelly retired) Nowadays it's all about the numbers, sports science, power meters, aero wheels, wind tunnels and bikes made from composite cutting edge materials. Yes one still has to be an incredible athlete to win the big races... I remember Greg Lemond once said in an interview, that Sean Kelly would have been impossible to beat if he had a decent riding position on his bike... I know people revere Sean Kelly because of all those races he won, but his ideas on cycling are thirty years out of date...0 -
There are plenty of strong Juniors in the country and as WAV1 said its easy for him to name a local lad he knows well, all due respect to the same young lad, he's a great rider. The names the other 3 irish first year juniors who finished the junior tour 2014 in the top 10 don't roll as easily off the tongue and Sean can be forgiven for not knowing anything about them. Some work needs to be done to interrogate the results sheets to appreciate their achievements. None of the three were protected riders and two of them finished that high on GC despite them being active and aggressive throughout the 5 RR stages. The stats for that race show how stong and committed these young lads are. There are not many guys racing in the country who could cover 605Km at an average speed of 44.5kph. Only 8K or so of that was TT btw. The other stages were all above 100K and far from flat.
The talent is there but there is no focused development taking place on a national level. CI's focus is on results not development. its all down to individual commitment or initiatives like the Belgian project or NRPT to get these guys some experience racing abroad.
As I write this i'm just in from a spin while my junior is still out there in the sleet and snow as darkness sets in, just like all the other dedicated juniors trying to stick to their coaches plans for the weekend while mother nature does her best to scupper them.
Thjings wont change soon and the ship is fast sailing for many of the young lads I have come to know and respect over the years, but there is hope as 2020 dies and the LTAD model comes into focus. It has the potential to change things significantly for the next crop of youths, but it needs to be more than aspirational. The coaches need to buy into it and start coaching. Anyone that has taken the time to read it can see that it is exactly what needs to happen. but it can only work in an academy type setting where the focus is not just on riders who are already skilled racers possibly due to being physically more developed. At youth and junior level there are such different rates of development taking place that account needs to be taken of talented riders who are a little behind on the physical development curve. These young riders on the periphery of the current narrow focus show such determination to keep plugging away telling themselves that their day will come.
Its easy to dismiss these nameless young adults who restrict their diets, stay away from alcohol and lead a disciplined lifestyle for the reward of broken bones and shattered dreams.0 -
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hammerheadjack wrote: »There are plenty of strong Juniors in the country and as WAV1 said its easy for him to name a local lad he knows well, all due respect to the same young lad, he's a great rider. The names the other 3 irish first year juniors who finished the junior tour 2014 in the top 10 don't roll as easily off the tongue and Sean can be forgiven for not knowing anything about them. Some work needs to be done to interrogate the results sheets to appreciate their achievements. None of the three were protected riders and two of them finished that high on GC despite them being active and aggressive throughout the 5 RR stages. The stats for that race show how stong and committed these young lads are. There are not many guys racing in the country who could cover 605Km at an average speed of 44.5kph. Only 8K or so of that was TT btw. The other stages were all above 100K and far from flat.
The talent is there but there is no focused development taking place on a national level. CI's focus is on results not development. its all down to individual commitment or initiatives like the Belgian project or NRPT to get these guys some experience racing abroad.
As I write this i'm just in from a spin while my junior is still out there in the sleet and snow as darkness sets in, just like all the other dedicated juniors trying to stick to their coaches plans for the weekend while mother nature does her best to scupper them.
Thjings wont change soon and the ship is fast sailing for many of the young lads I have come to know and respect over the years, but there is hope as 2020 dies and the LTAD model comes into focus. It has the potential to change things significantly for the next crop of youths, but it needs to be more than aspirational. The coaches need to buy into it and start coaching. Anyone that has taken the time to read it can see that it is exactly what needs to happen. but it can only work in an academy type setting where the focus is not just on riders who are already skilled racers possibly due to being physically more developed. At youth and junior level there are such different rates of development taking place that account needs to be taken of talented riders who are a little behind on the physical development curve. These young riders on the periphery of the current narrow focus show such determination to keep plugging away telling themselves that their day will come.
Its easy to dismiss these nameless young adults who restrict their diets, stay away from alcohol and lead a disciplined lifestyle for the reward of broken bones and shattered dreams.
Well said.0 -
Juan More Time wrote: »1. Sean Kelly earned every cent the hard way through sheer guts, determination and talent, and he deserves every moment of the affluent lifestyle he enjoys today. He lives in a mansion as lots of retired international sports stars do. I find it quite bemusing why people become uncomfortable when I point this out?
2. Competitive cycling has changed totally as a sport since 1994 (the year Sean Kelly retired) Nowadays it's all about the numbers, sports science, power meters, aero wheels, wind tunnels and bikes made from composite cutting edge materials. Yes one still has to be an incredible athlete to win the big races... I remember Greg Lemond once said in an interview, that Sean Kelly would have been impossible to beat if he had a decent riding position on his bike... I know people revere Sean Kelly because of all those races he won, but his ideas on cycling are thirty years out of date...
what relevance to your opinions does the type of residence kelly lives in have ? or what relevance does it have on his opinion.
there are posters here who have involved in cycling for 1,2,3 or like myself 4 decades and you can be almost sure all will agree with what kelly said , not because he is king , but because he is right . there was a time when the season kicked off around patricks day with a race in carrick or the jack woodcock in phoenix park . now you could have races on at end of february and several races on most weekend , and then very little races when the RAS is finished , the RAS that used to be on later in the year
from my reading on sticky bottle he was not actually critical of any juniors , just the fact that there was not enough young lads at it and you dont need to be an expert to see that, and of course he named a guy from carrick , do you seriously expect him to know the names of every junior in the country who got up in a race. back in the 80's there was huge numbers of juniors racing now you might have a few dozen in a race.Also back then there was a lot about having the best gear available and the best training methods available at the time
to say he could do more for cycling in ireland is just laughable , as well as all the stuff mentioned on here there was also the house he set up in belgium that guys could go to , to have a go over there. Kelly regularly turns up to support loads of events and rides regularly with groups around the country to promote cycling at all levels , how many other former international sports stars spend as much time mixing with the ordinary fred's ?.... not to many0 -
He is right about the race length. a few years ago the average length for a senior race was 70km. One initiative that was proposed in the past was a minimum distance based on the time of year. So it would start at x and build up by 16 km every month. A big problem for longer races is the start times. starting races at 1 and 2 in the day is a waste of time I understand circuits pass by churches etc. but I am sure there are ways and means of avoiding these. I think the shortest Sunday race I ever did was at A3, it was 33 miles.
As regards juniors in the last few years the numbers have risen and obviously the quality will rise with increased numbers but the best juniors are racing in A1 races when its deemed good for preparation and they get a lot more exposure to international competition so race distance for them shouldnt be a huge problem. The support that CI have implemented has been very good with the Talent Team 2020 for young girls and boys. Its fair to say that this has resulted in good performances and results in the last few years. Yeah we would all like 20 at the level of the best young lads and fields of 150 riders maybe it will come but at least we should nab the best ones and make sure that they have adequate support to achieve their potential. The only issue I have is the model of tt2020 should be pushed out to the provinces and bring that level up as well.
I suppose if you look back at Kellys time as a junior and 1st year senior how many pro riders had Ireland (if that's the measure of success?) compared to now. I know it maybe a little bit apples and pears because of Kellys conti team0 -
the 2020 initiative is focused on results not development and the junior cycle follows this model as well. I think this is a huge failing, and can be done better. Pushing it out to the provinces only serves to dilute the already small pool of riders. We are not talking about huge numbers but there are 15 juniors in this country that could form a large panel of athletes on a basic academy programme. This is what the Danish are doing. A similar population to ours and not so many Juniors. http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/team-gbs-juniors-closing-the-gap-to-denmarks-best-29816
"The Danish Cycling Federation’s high performance manager Lars Bonde explains that, despite having relatively few riders, his country’s juniors benefit from a well-developed race calendar that allows them to meet in competition every weekend.
“That sets the bar high for the competition,” he adds. “It’s very hard to be a new junior racer in Denmark because in your first race you come up against the world’s best. But that competitive environment means we develop world-class juniors.”
The approach seems to be working. Danish riders have won junior Paris-Roubaix for two consecutive years and led the Nations Cup competition last season. The intensity can have its downsides, however.
“We often have to tell juniors that they are training too much,” Bonde adds. “We try hard to tell the juniors who are not winning Nations Cup races all the time that their time could come.”
They organise their national development around a squad of 35 Juniors. They are not all at Nations cup level, but they are all monitored centrally by the national development coach. He knows all of their strengths and weaknesses and monitors their progress. They are obliged to submit training data to him to remain on the squad. Riders are selected from this pool to represent the country. Its all transparent and structured on development.
Things have indeed moved on since 1994 but there is still a lack of transparency on whats happening with junior development. The current results focused system will never develop athletes and cause many to drop out of the sport, but a structured development programme will develop winners eventually.0 -
hammerheadjack wrote: »the 2020 initiative is focused on results not development and the junior cycle follows this model as well. I think this is a huge failing, and can be done better. Pushing it out to the provinces only serves to dilute the already small pool of riders. We are not talking about huge numbers but there are 15 juniors in this country that could form a large panel of athletes on a basic academy programme. This is what the Danish are doing. A similar population to ours and not so many Juniors. http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/team-gbs-juniors-closing-the-gap-to-denmarks-best-29816
"The Danish Cycling Federation’s high performance manager Lars Bonde explains that, despite having relatively few riders, his country’s juniors benefit from a well-developed race calendar that allows them to meet in competition every weekend.
“That sets the bar high for the competition,” he adds. “It’s very hard to be a new junior racer in Denmark because in your first race you come up against the world’s best. But that competitive environment means we develop world-class juniors.”
The approach seems to be working. Danish riders have won junior Paris-Roubaix for two consecutive years and led the Nations Cup competition last season. The intensity can have its downsides, however.
“We often have to tell juniors that they are training too much,” Bonde adds. “We try hard to tell the juniors who are not winning Nations Cup races all the time that their time could come.”
They organise their national development around a squad of 35 Juniors. They are not all at Nations cup level, but they are all monitored centrally by the national development coach. He knows all of their strengths and weaknesses and monitors their progress. They are obliged to submit training data to him to remain on the squad. Riders are selected from this pool to represent the country. Its all transparent and structured on development.
Things have indeed moved on since 1994 but there is still a lack of transparency on whats happening with junior development. The current results focused system will never develop athletes and cause many to drop out of the sport, but a structured development programme will develop winners eventually.
I disagree its not about results its about developing the riders to ensure they can make the jump to contintental, pro-tour level or whatever. The idea was expose them to the best competition and give them the support required. What I meant about rolling it out to the provinces was not to dilute anything just to ensure that the system and the methods applied to a smaller number at the top were accessible to all junior riders which you would hope would raise the national level.0 -
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Anyone who has been through U14 / U16 races knows that of 60 starters there will be 15 finishing together and only 3 can get to the podium. The same 15 riders nearly every time. The 2020 talent team choses 3 or 4 of those and leaves the talentless ones to fend for themselves. Even the terminology used is counter productive. What does “talent team” indicate? Whats a 15 year old who consistently finishes with the lead group but just dosen’t get to the podium supposed to think? Does he not have any talent?
The narrow focus of 2020 is continued through the junior cycle so its really not accessible to the juniors showing promise. A larger national squad does not mean all squad members have to go to the international races, but it does mean that a larger group of riders get together regularly and compete for team places in a structured programme. It means that the national development coach has facetime with each squad member. Has the craic with them gets to know them. Etc. It builds camaraderie and healthy competition amongst the riders knowing that they each have a fair shot of donning the green.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. And to be honest I’m questioning why I care so much I’m more or less out of it at this stage. I’d like to see big changes for the people I know coming up behind us I guess , because I’ll still never understand what is so wrong with a paid national development coach getting to know the top 15 riders instead of the top 5? What is so wrong with a programme where those athletes training files are reviewed and monitored by one individual responsible for national development. What can possibly be wrong with a young lad knowing that if he works hard he will get onto the national development squad. That incentive is really not there at the moment and creating a staged process with provincial initiatives is not the way to do it with such a small pool of riders nationally. That merely reinforces the exclusivity of the top level.
The national junior development coach is a salaried position afterall tasked with National development. There is no provincial equivalent. Leaving it to the provinces takes the pressure off the National development coach having to take the time to work with the other ten riders. Asking someone at the provincial level about how yer man is going, is not the came as actually seeing how he’s going compared to his peers at a camp in the Wicklow hills for example. I’m just saying its easier to focus on the few selected riders coming up through 2020 rather than look at riders who have been outside the system. As an example you will more than likely see the first year juniors who were on 2020 invited to the junior training camp that’s taking place in Mallorca in the next week or so I believe, ahead of Second years who have performed well as first year juniors but were not on 2020. Mainly because the Coach does not know the guys and its easy to pick the lads he does know or knows were on 2020. That’s just human nature. Again I see I have written a novel, having set out to keep it short and sweet . So to finish, I fully understand that all that has been done to date has been done with the best intentions, but what happens with the guys outside of the narrow focus is still all very aspirational and I believe there is a better way to develop more riders than making such a tiny selection from a small pool of talented athletes.0 -
I disagree its not about results its about developing the riders to ensure they can make the jump to contintental, pro-tour level or whatever. The idea was expose them to the best competition and give them the support required. What I meant about rolling it out to the provinces was not to dilute anything just to ensure that the system and the methods applied to a smaller number at the top were accessible to all junior riders which you would hope would raise the national level.
But riders don't just arrive at junior level needing a quick polish and set on the right track to be signing a pro contract ! We've dug some foundations alright but I don't think the footings are deep enough.0 -
My hope is that the new National Youth Academy will address some of these issies with about 32 riders from each [8 per province] included in it with a hands on coach from each province involved.That was the only issue that I had with talent 2020,in that it was exclusive and not inclusive.As for the juniors at provincial level,we can only do our best as unpaid volunteers..Try and get them together as much as possible and get them geared for JT etc.Look after them and encourage them as much as possible..To me its all about getting them in to Senior category and still wanting to ride their bike.Sean Mc Kenna is a true testament to that one,as he was an average junior[and he wont mind me saying that at all],but boy what an U23 espoir rider.hammerheadjack wrote: »Anyone who has been through U14 / U16 races knows that of 60 starters there will be 15 finishing together and only 3 can get to the podium. The same 15 riders nearly every time. The 2020 talent team choses 3 or 4 of those and leaves the talentless ones to fend for themselves. Even the terminology used is counter productive. What does “talent team” indicate? Whats a 15 year old who consistently finishes with the lead group but just dosen’t get to the podium supposed to think? Does he not have any talent?
The narrow focus of 2020 is continued through the junior cycle so its really not accessible to the juniors showing promise. A larger national squad does not mean all squad members have to go to the international races, but it does mean that a larger group of riders get together regularly and compete for team places in a structured programme. It means that the national development coach has facetime with each squad member. Has the craic with them gets to know them. Etc. It builds camaraderie and healthy competition amongst the riders knowing that they each have a fair shot of donning the green.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. And to be honest I’m questioning why I care so much I’m more or less out of it at this stage. I’d like to see big changes for the people I know coming up behind us I guess , because I’ll still never understand what is so wrong with a paid national development coach getting to know the top 15 riders instead of the top 5? What is so wrong with a programme where those athletes training files are reviewed and monitored by one individual responsible for national development. What can possibly be wrong with a young lad knowing that if he works hard he will get onto the national development squad. That incentive is really not there at the moment and creating a staged process with provincial initiatives is not the way to do it with such a small pool of riders nationally. That merely reinforces the exclusivity of the top level.
The national junior development coach is a salaried position afterall tasked with National development. There is no provincial equivalent. Leaving it to the provinces takes the pressure off the National development coach having to take the time to work with the other ten riders. Asking someone at the provincial level about how yer man is going, is not the came as actually seeing how he’s going compared to his peers at a camp in the Wicklow hills for example. I’m just saying its easier to focus on the few selected riders coming up through 2020 rather than look at riders who have been outside the system. As an example you will more than likely see the first year juniors who were on 2020 invited to the junior training camp that’s taking place in Mallorca in the next week or so I believe, ahead of Second years who have performed well as first year juniors but were not on 2020. Mainly because the Coach does not know the guys and its easy to pick the lads he does know or knows were on 2020. That’s just human nature. Again I see I have written a novel, having set out to keep it short and sweet . So to finish, I fully understand that all that has been done to date has been done with the best intentions, but what happens with the guys outside of the narrow focus is still all very aspirational and I believe there is a better way to develop more riders than making such a tiny selection from a small pool of talented athletes.0 -
My hope is that the new National Youth Academy will address some of these issies with about 32 riders from each [8 per province] included in it with a hands on coach from each province involved.That was the only issue that I had with talent 2020,in that it was exclusive and not inclusive.As for the juniors at provincial level,we can only do our best as unpaid volunteers..Try and get them together as much as possible and get them geared for JT etc.Look after them and encourage them as much as possible..To me its all about getting them in to Senior category and still wanting to ride their bike.Sean Mc Kenna is a true testament to that one,as he was an average junior[and he wont mind me saying that at all],but boy what an U23 espoir rider.
Wav I appreciate that the volunteers are all under pressure but if its such a thing that because of limited time for the likes of yourself who obviously does a huge amount of work and has a huge amount of experience that it limits what can be achieved for the juniors perhaps I could suggest some changes.
Perhaps you could try to take more a mentor role and bring some others in who would benefit greatly from preparing and managing a junior tour team.
For example there are quite a number of people who have completed some of Cycling Ireland coaching courses who could benefit greatly if given the opportunity to prepare and manage a team.. And I am sure that at this stage there is very little you could learn from managing another junior tour team.
THink of the benefits to the province if it helped a couple of keen younger coaches to begin their step up the Coaching ladder with preparation of a junior Tour Team... Everyone would benefit and it would ease the pressure on dedicated volunteers like yourself.0 -
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Agreed,and to that end we have made a start by having a new coach in place at Leinster level to look after the U14 and U16 riders,and we hope to be able to help the Juniors in this regard going forward also.But easy as it sounds its hard to get people to give up annual leave to look after teams on the JT,so TBH it does end up with mostly the same people doing it from most of the areas.But anyway we have made a start and I wish the new youth coach every success.12 sprocket wrote: »Wav I appreciate that the volunteers are all under pressure but if its such a thing that because of limited time for the likes of yourself who obviously does a huge amount of work and has a huge amount of experience that it limits what can be achieved for the juniors perhaps I could suggest some changes.
Perhaps you could try to take more a mentor role and bring some others in who would benefit greatly from preparing and managing a junior tour team.
For example there are quite a number of people who have completed some of Cycling Ireland coaching courses who could benefit greatly if given the opportunity to prepare and manage a team.. And I am sure that at this stage there is very little you could learn from managing another junior tour team.
THink of the benefits to the province if it helped a couple of keen younger coaches to begin their step up the Coaching ladder with preparation of a junior Tour Team... Everyone would benefit and it would ease the pressure on dedicated volunteers like yourself.0 -
Agreed,and to that end we have made a start by having a new coach in place at Leinster level to look after the U14 and U16 riders,and we hope to be able to help the Juniors in this regard going forward also.But easy as it sounds its hard to get people to give up annual leave to look after teams on the JT,so TBH it does end up with mostly the same people doing it from most of the areas.But anyway we have made a start and I wish the new youth coach every success.
That's great to hear and hopefully the youth coach and riders will make great progress.
And perhaps it could be put out there for another coach or a small coaching group to develop a junior squad and take them to the Junior Tour. That could enhance the provinces riders chance of stepping up to the National squads as well as assisting in the Coaches long term development.. Winners all round Wav and some of the burden released from your own shoulders. Go for it!! An old circular via cycling Ireland might get a good response. No harm trying and see what the response is.0 -
Again agreed,but a normal difference between myself and my likes acting as,call it what you want mentors,managers etc,and coaches,is that coaches normally want paying.BTW our new coach is a part time unpaid volunteer,and eager.12 sprocket wrote: »That's great to hear and hopefully the youth coach and riders will make great progress.
And perhaps it could be put out there for another coach or a small coaching group to develop a junior squad and take them to the Junior Tour. That could enhance the provinces riders chance of stepping up to the National squads as well as assisting in the Coaches long term development.. Winners all round Wav and some of the burden released from your own shoulders. Go for it!! An old circular via cycling Ireland might get a good response. No harm trying and see what the response is.0 -
It might also work better the other way around - if the system being used by the provinces (some at least) was rolled in to the national level.I disagree its not about results its about developing the riders to ensure they can make the jump to contintental, pro-tour level or whatever. The idea was expose them to the best competition and give them the support required. What I meant about rolling it out to the provinces was not to dilute anything just to ensure that the system and the methods applied to a smaller number at the top were accessible to all junior riders which you would hope would raise the national level.0 -
hammerheadjack wrote: »Anyone who has been through U14 / U16 races knows that of 60 starters there will be 15 finishing together and only 3 can get to the podium. The same 15 riders nearly every time. The 2020 talent team choses 3 or 4 of those and leaves the talentless ones to fend for themselves. Even the terminology used is counter productive. What does “talent team” indicate? Whats a 15 year old who consistently finishes with the lead group but just dosen’t get to the podium supposed to think? Does he not have any talent?
The narrow focus of 2020 is continued through the junior cycle so its really not accessible to the juniors showing promise. A larger national squad does not mean all squad members have to go to the international races, but it does mean that a larger group of riders get together regularly and compete for team places in a structured programme. It means that the national development coach has facetime with each squad member. Has the craic with them gets to know them. Etc. It builds camaraderie and healthy competition amongst the riders knowing that they each have a fair shot of donning the green.
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. And to be honest I’m questioning why I care so much I’m more or less out of it at this stage. I’d like to see big changes for the people I know coming up behind us I guess , because I’ll still never understand what is so wrong with a paid national development coach getting to know the top 15 riders instead of the top 5? What is so wrong with a programme where those athletes training files are reviewed and monitored by one individual responsible for national development. What can possibly be wrong with a young lad knowing that if he works hard he will get onto the national development squad. That incentive is really not there at the moment and creating a staged process with provincial initiatives is not the way to do it with such a small pool of riders nationally. That merely reinforces the exclusivity of the top level.
The national junior development coach is a salaried position afterall tasked with National development. There is no provincial equivalent. Leaving it to the provinces takes the pressure off the National development coach having to take the time to work with the other ten riders. Asking someone at the provincial level about how yer man is going, is not the came as actually seeing how he’s going compared to his peers at a camp in the Wicklow hills for example. I’m just saying its easier to focus on the few selected riders coming up through 2020 rather than look at riders who have been outside the system. As an example you will more than likely see the first year juniors who were on 2020 invited to the junior training camp that’s taking place in Mallorca in the next week or so I believe, ahead of Second years who have performed well as first year juniors but were not on 2020. Mainly because the Coach does not know the guys and its easy to pick the lads he does know or knows were on 2020. That’s just human nature. Again I see I have written a novel, having set out to keep it short and sweet . So to finish, I fully understand that all that has been done to date has been done with the best intentions, but what happens with the guys outside of the narrow focus is still all very aspirational and I believe there is a better way to develop more riders than making such a tiny selection from a small pool of talented athletes.
I agree to disagree. Having being involved in the setting up of the whole thing and a selector for youth olympics I think I do have a little bit of insight into juniors schoolboys etc. The whole idea of the provincial rollout is for CI to pay for Provinicial coaches to do exactly what you are saying bring the best methods get face to face etc with a much larger pool than one individual could ever do...salaried or not...and i dont know why care either...dont even like cycling0 -
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C I pay for provincial coaches..That certainly never happened.Quite the opposite in fact as this year each province will contribute e2k each to top up the funding from C I for the new youth academy...And no Anto you don't hate cycling...Youre just having a break.I agree to disagree. Having being involved in the setting up of the whole thing and a selector for youth olympics I think I do have a little bit of insight into juniors schoolboys etc. The whole idea of the provincial rollout is for CI to pay for Provinicial coaches to do exactly what you are saying bring the best methods get face to face etc with a much larger pool than one individual could ever do...salaried or not...and i dont know why care either...dont even like cycling0 -
Join Date:Posts: 11109
Anto and Wav1 are two of my cycling heros and even if you never do another thing for cycling (unlikely) I will always be grateful.0 -
Again agreed,but a normal difference between myself and my likes acting as,call it what you want mentors,managers etc,and coaches,is that coaches normally want paying.BTW our new coach is a part time unpaid volunteer,and eager.
Wav I'm sure that if the province was able to source a coach for the youth section that there would be others out there who would have an interest in developing the provinces Juniors.. There are lots of coaches who are volunteers and most coaches begin as volunteers..
And to be fair it looks like Leinster Juniors could benefit greatly by more coaching input. On the 2014 Junior tour leinster were last two teams on the Overall Team Classification. You clearly care about the cyclists as is seen by your original post, and are in a position to improve it.. I would respectfully suggest that the word is put out there for a good coach to work with the Juniors. And as I said before as one of the hardest working volunteers it would give you some space to concentrate on some of the other great work that you do.0 -
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I agree. it shouldnt be about ego's more about the riders.
There's a balance to be struck between young riders being developed by those around them - the people who bought them into the sport and nurtured them - and external more specialised support.
At the moment I think there is away too much emphasis at CI level on parachuting in the outside 'experts' when they get to a certain level - it's an elitist approach and I do think ego is involved in some cases (emphasis on 'some'). At Junior level all sorts of underests get stuck in for a piece of the action with different motivations.0
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