Zimbabwe gives white farmers 90 days to vacate farms in latest land grabs.

ireland.man

reprise wrote: »

Yes.

So if I posted an overtly anti-Semitic video criticising Jewish people in Israel, and from a well-known anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, would you be wrong in using the term "anti-Semitic" to describe me or my post or that video?

Eramen

ireland.man wrote: »

wow, we're 99% in agreement! I'm not a liberal for all the reasons you pointed out (and neither are Marxists, anarchists, etc)

Remember Marxism is the reduction of man to the material level. Here there is no soul, no mother culture, no meaning to be gained from special familial bonds. Even art, architecture and literature becomes rigid and representational, denying the transcendent within and without man & nature.

It's easy to see how internationalism has its roots in these ideas of nominal materialism, because if the above human qualities are sidelined then everyone is rendered basically 'the same', same flesh, same needs, same functions. Suddenly borders should not exist, or differences in the sexes, ethnic groups, talent & abilities, behaviors or even among individual people. This is how Marxists/egalitarians see it. Thus we become a world of workers, which is an economic concept, striving exhaustively to reach some sort of material equilibrium which is called 'equality'. Anyone who might question this basically denies reality, as the equality advocate will tell you, because they are laying claim to something more than the material, which is something they don't believe possible.

In effect you must 'leave' all these meaningful prior groups to join the new group of the world human, the worker, the believer. It's a cult-like behavior.

The problem is this equilibrium doesn't exist, because 'equality' is only possible when you deny all the previous values that held people together, culture, customs, distinct identities etc - and this can never actually done - nor should such a thing be done. People thrive in their own individual nature and collective culture, and never willingly give it up.

But this is exactly what people need as it's so important; it's this belonging and sense of place that 'traditional', normative groups afford them that make us as people so successful, fruitful and capable of the greatest feats of self-overcoming. The family, societies, roots, culture, tradition, history, language - these are what nature provides, for good reason too.

People live for and through others, and this is how we acquire meaning. Marxists/socialists/'liberals' will never understand this unless they leave the political religion which has commandeered their identity for so long. It's a shame that we are being made to march to the beat of the equality world-dream again. "I am not a number, I am a free man!" Yet I remain hopeful that we will come to our senses

ireland.man

Sociopath2 wrote: »

I believe you were the one who took issue with posters suggesting visas/citizenship be extended to displaced white farmers. You were insisting it was racist not to do the same for black farmers.

Black farmers are not being displaced in Zimbabwe. They generally lack the cultural and nationality links that were the basis of that posters suggestion. They generally lack the skills and expertise that would be the basis for skilled worker visas.

So although the circumstances didn't apply to black farmers at all, you're crying racist that they are not being considered.

There's a race angle here alright, but since whites are the victims some people are having to perform mental gymnastics so they can be offended on behalf of black Zimbabweans
.

Black farmers are not being displaced but far, far more black Zimbabweans are. They're escaping to South Africa in huge numbers, a country that is far from welcoming. There's been pogroms in which Zimbabweans have been lynched there. Most Zimbabweans are victims of the horrible ruling elite there.

What I said was that it's wrong to provide special treatment to one group of Zimbabweans but deny the same rights to their grandchildren in the case that they might have had a black mother. Do you agree?

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

Black farmers are not being displaced but far, far more black Zimbabweans are. They're escaping to South Africa in huge numbers, a country that is far from welcoming. There's been pogroms in which Zimbabweans have been lynched there. Most Zimbabweans are victims of the horrible ruling elite there.

What I said was that it's wrong to provide special treatment to one group of Zimbabweans but deny the same rights to their grandchildren in the case that they might have had a black mother. Do you agree?

Same sneery racist tripe repackaged yet again.

He agrees, you call him a racist. He doesn't, you ask him again.

That about the size of it?

ireland.man

Eramen wrote: »

Remember Marxism is the reduction of man to the material level. Here there is no soul, no mother culture, no meaning to be gained from special familial bonds. Even art, architecture and literature becomes rigid and representational, denying the transcendent within and without nature.

It's easy to see how internationalism has its roots in these ideas of nominal materialism, because if the above human qualities are sidelined then everyone is rendered basically 'the same', same flesh, same needs, same functions. This is how Marxists/egalitarians see it. Thus we become a world of workers, which is an economic concept, striving exhaustively to reach some sort of material equilibrium which is called 'equality'.

In effect you must 'leave' all these meaningful prior groups to join the new group of the world human, the worker, the believer. It's a cult-like behavior.

The problem is this equilibrium doesn't exist, because 'equality' is only possible when you deny all the previous values that held people together, culture, customs, distinct identities etc - and this can never actually done (nor should it be). People thrive in their own individual nature and collective culture, and never willingly give it up.

But this is exactly what people need; it's the belonging and sense of place that 'traditional', normative groups afford them that make us so successful, fruitful and capable of the greatest feats with self-overcoming. The family, societies, roots, culture, tradition, language - these are what nature provides, for good reason too. People live for and through others, and this is how we acquire meaning. Marxists/socialists/'liberals' will never understand this unless they leave the political religion which has commandeered their identity for so long.

It a shame that we are being made to march to the beat of the equality world-dream again. "I am not a number, I am a free man!" Yet I remain hopeful that we will come to our senses

The reduction of all humans to mere workers is a capitalist development. Marx believed that people would be free to build closer bonds to each other if they weren't chained to the coal mine cart all day long. Culture, familial bonds, true personal freedom, called the superstructure in Marxism, can be best nurtured by a reduction in work, increase in working conditions and a less oppressive regime than capitalism and consumerism imposes.

And you can't lump liberals and Marxists together since if you're talking about freedom and the modern world, they're absolutely miles apart.

Sociopath2

ireland.man wrote: »

Black farmers are not being displaced but far, far more black Zimbabweans are. They're escaping to South Africa in huge numbers, a country that is far from welcoming. There's been pogroms in which Zimbabweans have been lynched there. Most Zimbabweans are victims of the horrible ruling elite there.

What I said was that it's wrong to provide special treatment to one group of Zimbabweans but deny the same rights to their grandchildren in the case that they might have had a black mother. Do you agree?

White farmers are being driven out of Zimbabwe because they are descendants of Europeans. It was suggested that they be extended European visas for the same reason. Many may already be eligible for visas or passports.

Eligibility requirements for such things usually require one parent/grandparent of the required nationality so having a black mother is no barrier.
It does show your obsession with race, as if it is the sole characterising feature of a person.

Black Zimbabweans generally won't meet the visa/passport criteria so that route just isn't open to them. There is no special program for whites at the expense of blacks being proposed here. Skilled worker visas, citizenship eligibility and ancestral right to return concepts already exist in Europe. Black Zimbabweans have the right to apply for asylum, just as Nodin pointed out all humans do.

Ostrom

Eramen wrote: »

Remember Marxism is the reduction of man to the material level. Here there is no soul, no mother culture, no meaning to be gained from special familial bonds. Even art, architecture and literature becomes rigid and representational, denying the transcendent within and without nature.

You've got it backwards. Capitalism is the reduction of man to the material - this is the basis of Marx's critique of industrial society. The category of labour in Marxism is used to show how human creativity, including art, literature, science, etc are central to social life. Das Kapital is full of references to classical philosophy, poetry, literature, satire - these are the essence of human life. The whole point of capital was to show how these become obscured and relegated under capitalism due to its prioritisation of wage work. It's a classic misreading to confuse Marx's method of inquiry with his substantive criticism - the former requires taking apart the fundamentals of social order devoid of subjective meaning, the latter details what we stand to gain from social change (where unfortunately, my agreement ends).

malibu4u

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

We send this sh*thole roughly €7.5 million per annum in foreign aid.

Time we stopped. Many white Zimbabweans/Rhodesians - well maybe 5 or 10% have Irish names and ancestry, and are only a few generations out of Ireland. Of course we should allow them back...with perhaps the proviso they are not entitled to social welfare for 2 years or whatever. Most I think would be hard working and industrious. Or maybe we should spend some of the 7.5 million helping those people in Ireland set up businesses or farms. Instead of Ireland importing nearly all our vegetables they could grow them and earn their keep.

AndonHandon

*sigh* the Zimbabwean policy is a knee-jerk reaction to decades of oppression from 'white' rulers; it is, at its most basic, implementing the exact opposite policy! All well and good crying about the white man being oppressed but this is a case of the 'white man' being made to drink from the well he made those in Zimbabwe drink from.

JONJO THE MISER

Many south Africans i have met here say there country will be like Zimbabwe in
10 years.

riffmongous

Might be an interesting read for anyone who is actually interested in zimbabwe, in fact the entire article is pretty good

http://www.minorityrights.org/4504/zimbabwe/zimbabwe-overview.html#current

suicide_circus

Ah Robert Mugabe. The sooner that crazy old prick dies the better.

Remember what Chris Rock said a while back about white americans "owning" the sins of their white forefathers? Similarly, white europeans are "owning" the distress of their white Zimbabwean cousins. Maybe?

RobYourBuilder

malibu4u wrote: »

Time we stopped. Many white Zimbabweans/Rhodesians - well maybe 5 or 10% have Irish names and ancestry, and are only a few generations out of Ireland. Of course we should allow them back...with perhaps the proviso they are not entitled to social welfare for 2 years or whatever. Most I think would be hard working and industrious. Or maybe we should spend some of the 7.5 million helping those people in Ireland set up businesses or farms. Instead of Ireland importing nearly all our vegetables they could grow them and earn their keep.

I wouldn't give them welfare until they became citizens. Perhaps a small relocation grant at the start would suffice.

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I wouldn't give them welfare until they became citizens. Perhaps a small relocation grant at the start would suffice.

So you'd like to see those descendants of European settlers come back to Europe if they're under severe threat? Me too, but would you like to see all the descendants of those settlers, even those of mixed-race background return here?

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

So you'd like to see those descendants of European settlers come back to Europe if they're under severe threat? Me too, but would you like to see all the descendants of those settlers, even those of mixed-race background return here?

Are you suggesting that children wave their parents off at the airport or are you still trying to call him a racist? If it's the latter, why not get it out of your system and skip the foreplay.

Sociopath2

ireland.man wrote: »

So you'd like to see those descendants of European settlers come back to Europe if they're under severe threat? Me too, but would you like to see all the descendants of those settlers, even those of mixed-race background return here?

You asked me the same question and I responded. When it was clear I had no issue with it you didn't respond at all.

Instead you have asked another poster the same question again in the hope he will give the wrong answer and you can scream racist after you didn't get any satisfaction out of me.

You're continually asking loaded questions.

ireland.man

reprise wrote: »

Are you suggesting that children wave their parents off at the airport or are you still trying to call him a racist? If it's the latter, why not get it out of your system and skip the foreplay.

No, I'm obviously talking about the wider population of children who are descendants of settlers but who have had a black mother, or grandmother, etc.

ireland.man

Sociopath2 wrote: »

You asked me the same question and I responded. When it was clear I had no issue with it you didn't respond at all.

Instead you have asked another poster the same question again in the hope he will give the wrong answer and you can scream racist after you didn't get any satisfaction out of me.

You're continually asking loaded questions.

I thought I agreed with you! I thought your point was very reasonable and I'm all for it. I'd be happy to see vulnerable Zimbabweans be given passage to Europe. Apologies if I didn't reply, it was a slip.

Sociopath2

ireland.man wrote: »

No, I'm obviously talking about the wider population of children who are descendants of settlers but who have had a black mother, or grandmother, etc.

If you're going to insist on asking all posters the same question, add a poll.

How about you read my last response to you and give me your opinions on that?

ireland.man

Sociopath2 wrote: »

If you're going to insist on asking all posters the same question, add a poll.

How about you read my last response to you and give me your opinions on that?

I've asked that same poster that same question? What was his answer?

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

No, I'm obviously talking about the wider population of children who are descendants of settlers but who have had a black mother, or grandmother, etc.

No, you are obviously looking to shoehorn a race angle in as you kept trying to do yesterday.

ireland.man

reprise wrote: »

No, you are obviously looking to shoehorn a race angle in as you kept trying to do yesterday.

Why did you choose me to level that allegation against and not the person who posted a racist video of the author of the Turner Diaries? Surely that poster brought a focus on race when you say this thread isn't about that.

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

I've asked that same poster that same question? What was his answer?

Seeing as you find his answer more interesting than anyone else's for some bizarre reason, Why not pm him?

Sonderkommando

ireland.man wrote: »

Why did you choose me to level that allegation against and not the person who posted a racist video of the author of the Turner Diaries? Surely that poster brought a focus on race when you say this thread isn't about that.

That video was about the hypocrisy of western liberals. Clearly you did not watch the video.

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

Why did you choose me to level that allegation against and not the person who posted a racist video of the author of the Turner Diaries? Surely that poster brought a focus on race when you say this thread isn't about that.

Because I exercised my discretion as an adult to ignore the video, just as you should be capable of doing so.

ireland.man

Sonderkommando wrote: »

That video was about the hypocrisy of western liberals. Clearly you did not watch the video.

I did and I quoted from it too, you know the bit when he says white settlers taught blacks how to behave

It's a racist video, he's a racist and no-one here seems to care about that but by God they'll complain if any 'liberals' point it out!

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

I did and I quoted from it too, you know the bit when he says white settlers taught blacks how to behave

It's a racist video, he's a racist and no-one here seems to care about that but by God they'll complain if any 'liberals' point it out!

The money shot!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was it worth the wait?

You could have called him a racist yesterday you know?

ireland.man

So I think these farmers shouldn't be kicked off their land. They're a vulnerable group and so I'm in favour of giving them passage to Europe. I think so too should many of the black Zimbabweans who are also suffering from extreme persecution in that country.

I think we almost all agree, right?

reprise

ireland.man wrote: »

So I think these farmers shouldn't be kicked off their land. They're a vulnerable group and so I'm in favour of giving them passage to Europe. I think so too should many of the black Zimbabweans who are also suffering from extreme persecution in that country.

I think we almost all agree, right?

I think the fact that race is such an emotive issue for you, that maybe you ain't ready for that kind of result.

RobYourBuilder

ireland.man wrote: »

So you'd like to see those descendants of European settlers come back to Europe if they're under severe threat?

I think I've answered this question numerous times even though I've stated my position in my opening piece.

Anyway, interesting article;

This got me thinking further.  I recall the time that I spent in the UK (2004-2009), when so many Zimbabwean asylum seekers arrived on the UK’s shores.  Whilst many of them were genuine asylum seekers, I personally know quite a few – who are not. As it happens, I know of a few black South African’s who posed as Zimbabweans, fake documents in hand and managed to pull the wool successfully over the home office’s eyes.  Some were not so lucky but just take a walk down the streets of Luton, Leeds, Coventry, Birmingham, Leicester and Milton Keynes and you will find that many, many were.  Do not misunderstand me, this is not an attack on genuine asylum seekers, the world needs to take care of it’s vulnerable, however the issue of Mr. Huntley seems to have exposed (as much as I hate to admit it) a double standard in the system.

Can white people be refugees?

I mean that sentence in its entirety.  Can we actually BE refugees?  With such well-established opinions on what refugees are, could we ever be seen as such especially if (and I’m not convinced Mr. Huntley would fall into this category) he had a genuine claim?

My Mother is Zimbabwean.  I have cousins who still live there – but one of my cousins who left for the UK with his wife, was allowed there ONLY because she has British Citizenship.  I know of a great deal of white Zimbabweans who, with no access to EU passports were denied refugee status in the UK.  The irony here of course, is that one could argue that black Zimbabweans voted in Mr. Mugabe (and I have personally witnessed debates in the UK by black Zimbabweans singing his praises, who are in the UK by virtue of asylum and refugee status), yet after getting rid of the evil white farmers, they then went running back to their erstwhile colonial power.  Forgive me but this seems all too much like a fait accompli on the part of the Zimbabwean government.

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Offended-egos-aside-could-whites-actually-BE-refugees-20140622

We accept hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers every year, who are not exactly genuine here in Europe. Surely we should take in the 30k or so Zimbabweans of European descent and give them the opportunity to work towards citizenship in their ancestral homeland?