Proposed Public sector pay rises

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

Private schools fund all their own facilities and property through fees. I don't know what your point about surpluses is- what surpluses.

To 100%?

Which proves my point, the recharging of capital budget spending in the 'free' scheme makes the cost of students in that scheme look greater than it is.

Thanks for helping me prove the point!!!

barneystinson

Jawgap wrote: »

I mean if you look at the 'quality' of student that leaves our education system, particularly in maths and science, and compare them to students from other countries they do not stack up well.

Or maybe they're better than I'm making out, and it's the low ranked Irish universities that are wrecking them

What's this got to do with Brendan Howlin talking to PS unions about PS pay in the post-FEMPI world..??!!?!

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

FEE CHARGING SCHOOLS ANALYSIS OF FEE INCOME

Anyway wouldn't these schools be better being totally independent??

That way they'd be free of these deadwood PS teachers people were referring to earlier. Must be terrible to spend circa €20k per year on your kids education then have them educated by Dept of Education funded teachers

I cant find anything about retained profits in the study. Sorry, still dont know what youre talking about.

Your second point is completely beyond me.

barneystinson

Jawgap wrote: »

To 100%?

Which proves my point, the recharging of capital budget spending in the 'free' scheme makes the cost of students in that scheme look greater than it is.

Thanks for helping me prove the point!!!

What's this got to do with Brendan Howlin talking to PS unions about PS pay in the post-FEMPI world..??!!?!

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

To 100%?

Which proves my point, the recharging of capital budget spending in the 'free' scheme makes the cost of students in that scheme look greater than it is.

Thanks for helping me prove the point!!!

No.


THERE IS NO STATE CAPITAL SPENDING in private schools.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

I cant find anything about retained profits in the study. Sorry, still dont know what youre talking about.

Your second point is completely beyond me.

It's described as discretionary income (table 2) - I was making the point that in any other private sector income the surpluses in question would be better described as 'retained profits.'

As the report notes, in respect of the 55 private schools looked at....

The 55 schools in aggregate continue to have available to them € 81.3 million that would not be available to 55 similar sized schools (i.e. size as determined by enrolment). The average amount available per school is €1.48 million each, working out at approximately €3,177 per student on average.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

I mean if you look at the 'quality' of student that leaves our education system, particularly in maths and science, and compare them to students from other countries they do not stack up well.

Or maybe they're better than I'm making out, and it's the low ranked Irish universities that are wrecking them

And this is because of the 100 m spent on private secondary schools educating 8% of pupils?

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

No.


THERE IS NO STATE CAPITAL SPENDING in private schools.

Good.

Because then this old story will not have bothered them then.....

Government will review grants for fee-paying schools

THE GOVERNMENT WILL review decisions to grant capital funding to fee-paying schools in Ireland according to the Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn.
.
.
.
.
His comments came after RTÉ published figures showing that over €8 million had been given in building grants to the country’s wealthiest schools by the Department of Education over the last three and a half years.

Oh dear......

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

And this is because of the 100 m spent on private secondary schools educating 8% of pupils?

No, the reasons are far more complicated than that - but it was argued that the current system works, when clearly the measured outcomes indicate otherwise.

Godge

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Sorry but I find that not only really poor advice but also seriously laughable given that my Public Sector job was directly responsible for me landing a €30,000 a year pay rise in in the Private Sector.

Me too.

Big pay increase for joining the private sector, avoided the pay cuts over the last few years, got some nice pay increases and still have the preserved pension.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

It's described as discretionary income (table 2) - I was making the point that in any other private sector income the surpluses in question would be better described as 'retained profits.'

As the report notes, in respect of the 55 private schools looked at....

The discretionary income in the report has nothing to do with retained profits. Its tge amount of money the school has to fund itself after interest on capital loans and unpaid fees. Its basically its budget.

chopper6

jcon1913 wrote: »

. Ask anyone who has gone to UCD / TCD these trust fund babies have more dropouts / breakdowns in college because they are in courses they are not able for.

What a load of rubbish.

ezra_pound

OK. Clearly I'm wrong about capital spending grants. However the figures in the Quinn article are from the 2011, and i think they may since have been stopped. Even then schools educated ng 8% of our students were getting 1.5% of building grants.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

The discretionary income in the report has nothing to do with retained profits. Its tge amount of money the school has to fund itself after interest on capital loans and unpaid fees. Its basically its budget.

It's income and a level of income that 'free' schools will never be able to enjoy.

Call it what you want, it still doesn't change the fact that the level of discretionary income is indicative of an over-funded sector.

Jawgap

Godge wrote: »

Me too.

Big pay increase for joining the private sector, avoided the pay cuts over the last few years, got some nice pay increases and still have the preserved pension.

I didn't get a big increase when I left, but I certainly got a benefits package that would never be available in the PS.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

It's income and a level of income that 'free' schools will never be able to enjoy.

Call it what you want, it still doesn't change the fact that the level of discretionary income is indicative of an over-funded sector.

Why shouldn't private schools have greater disposable funds to spend?

ezra_pound

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/asti-changing-status-of-fee-paying-schools-could-cost-state-40m-a-year-569756.html

http://factsaresacred.ie/memes/how-much-do-fee-paying-schools-save-the-irish-state/

ezra_pound

In the dept of education PDF you posted, Cormac McCarthy implies that the recommended cuts (they have already been made) would put the sector at risk of schools closing down or joining the state funded sector. This has already happened.

Do you really think further cuts to funding are needed?



###


3.2. Report of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes (The McCarthy Report, An Bord Snip Nua) The report, published in 2009, proposed a reduction in State support for fee charging schools as follows: “The State currently pays €101m towards the salaries of teachers in private fee-charging schools. The income raised from fees is €119m, while schools also have other income from religious orders, investments, etc. These schools should, in principle, be required to meet a greater proportion of their own costs, with a 25% reduction in the State subvention proposed in the first instance. This could be achieved by increasing the staffing schedule for private schools from 18 (as at present – increasing to 20 from September 2009) to 28 in respect of Exchequer-funded staff. This would yield savings of about €25m when fully implemented, but would also have to be phased in over a number of years. It is estimated that this would require an average increase of 21% in the level of fees charged by schools over the period, if the reduction in Exchequer funding is to be met in full. While this may prove to be an issue for some of the smaller, less-viable private schools, which may seek to dispense with fees and transfer to the free education scheme, it is not considered that the level of increase in fees required would result in a significant change in the sector overall.” (Report of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes, Volume II - Detailed Paper No. 6 – Education and Science)


Prior to September 2009, fee charging schools had the same basic staffing schedule as schools in the free scheme. The teacher allocation changes to date impacting specifically on fee charging schools involved a 1 point change in the staffing allocation effective September 2009 and a further 1 pt change effective September 2012. This disregards measures which applied to all second level schools, including fee charging schools. The staffing allocation at present stands at a teacher for 21 students compared to 19 to 1 in all other schools. The changes in the staffing schedule have suppressed an aggregate 128 posts from the 55 fee charging schools at an estimated full year saving of €8.2m. As a result of the recent budget decisions the ratio will be raised further to 23:1 in September 2013.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

OK. Clearly I'm wrong about capital spending grants. However the figures in the Quinn article are from the 2011, and i think they may since have been stopped. Even then schools educated ng 8% of our students were getting 1.5% of building grants.

St Patrick's Cathedral Grammar School?


Is that not a school outside the free scheme?

They're getting a new extension this year, courtesy of the Department of Education........

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

Why shouldn't private schools have greater disposable funds to spend?

Again, I've no problem with the schools or any funds they raise, but not by drawing off the State.

If they have excessive discretionary income then either it should be ploughed back into reducing fees and improving access - at the levels of discretionary income they're enjoying either they're getting too much from the State or charging potential students too much.

barneystinson

Jawgap wrote: »

St Patrick's Cathedral Grammar School?


Is that not a school outside the free scheme?

They're getting a new extension this year, courtesy of the Department of Education........

What's this got to do with Brendan Howlin talking to PS unions about PS pay in the post-FEMPI world..??!!?!

Jawgap

barneystinson wrote: »

What's this got to do with Brendan Howlin talking to PS unions about PS pay in the post-FEMPI world..??!!?!

Nothing really, but earlier someone had suggested people working in the PS were pretty much deadbeats......from that a discussion evolved about the subsidies private schools get.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

St Patrick's Cathedral Grammar School?


Is that not a school outside the free scheme?

They're getting a new extension this year, courtesy of the Department of Education........

It was but it's elitist clientele couldn't afford to pay the increased fees so it's now costing more to the state and benefiting from the perks.

"Also benefitting is St Patrick’s Cathedral Grammar School, which abandoned fees for its pupils earlier this year so it could qualify for building grants and other supports under the Free Education Scheme.

The 450-year-old school, one of the country’s oldest, had been campaigning unsuccessfully since 2000 for the new building, which will encompass a derelict site on Kevin Street."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/16-extra-schools-to-benefit-from-expanded-building-programme-1.2042905

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, I've no problem with the schools or any funds they raise, but not by drawing off the State.

If they have excessive discretionary income then either it should be ploughed back into reducing fees and improving access - at the levels of discretionary income they're enjoying either they're getting too much from the State or charging potential students too much.

Fine but then most of these schools will close down or join the free sector and add to the exchequer bill. Also those that remain will increase their fees and become more elitist.

The fact is that at present parents can choose to send their children to fee paying schools on modest incomes.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

It was but it's elitist clientele couldn't afford to pay the increased fees so it's now costing more to the state and benefiting from the perks.

"Also benefitting is St Patrick’s Cathedral Grammar School, which abandoned fees for its pupils earlier this year so it could qualify for building grants and other supports under the Free Education Scheme.

The 450-year-old school, one of the country’s oldest, had been campaigning unsuccessfully since 2000 for the new building, which will encompass a derelict site on Kevin Street."

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/16-extra-schools-to-benefit-from-expanded-building-programme-1.2042905

Well it wouldn't cost more on a per capita basis if they slackened their admissions policy......

• Pupils from St Patrick’s Cathedral Choir School.
• Protestant children or children of a Protestant parent.
• Brothers and sisters of current or former pupils.
• Children of staff of the Cathedral or the Cathedral schools.  Children of former pupils.

Maybe if they let the locals in they could bump their numbers and improve the value for money they offer.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

Fine but then most of these schools will close down or join the free sector and add to the exchequer bill. Also those that remain will increase their fees and become more elitist.

The fact is that at present parents can choose to send their children to fee paying schools on modest incomes.

Nobody knows for sure. My own view is that not as many would transfer as is thought, and the current state sponsored elitism should end.

If parents want to continue to educate their kids privately that's fine.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

Nobody knows for sure. My own view is that not as many would transfer as is thought, and the current state sponsored elitism should end.

If parents want to continue to educate their kids privately that's fine.

My point is that it's not elitist at present whereas in the UK it is. For this very reason.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

Nobody knows for sure. My own view is that not as many would transfer as is thought, and the current state sponsored elitism should end.

If parents want to continue to educate their kids privately that's fine.

Well about 10% have already dropped fees and joined the state system the last few years and another 10% are seriously considering it as things are.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

Well it wouldn't cost more on a per capita basis if they slackened their admissions policy......



Maybe if they let the locals in they could bump their numbers and improve the value for money they offer.

I'm sorry but they do allow locals in. It's a protestant school so it's totally entitled to give preference to protestants.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

I'm sorry but they do allow locals in. It's a protestant school so it's totally entitled to give preference to protestants.

Really, many Kevin Street addresses on their enrolment?

Plus religious patronage of schools is utterly archaic.