Proposed Public sector pay rises

Jawgap

@Rightwing - I'm not sure why you've thanked my post above.

Clearly you've missed the point.

If 'private' schools were truly private they'd be receiving no state subsidies.

they may well benefit from state funding if the government had the balls to bring in a proper voucher scheme, but as things stand they get a 'subsidy.'

It's an example of a private sector activity that could not exist without the substantial and explicit support of the State.

Rightwing

Jawgap wrote: »

@Rightwing - I'm not sure why you've thanked my post above.

Clearly you've missed the point.

If 'private' schools were truly private they'd be receiving no state subsidies.

they may well benefit from state funding if the government had the balls to bring in a proper voucher scheme, but as things stand they get a 'subsidy.'

It's an example of a private sector activity that could not exist without the substantial and explicit support of the State.

I'm in full agreement with you on the above issue.

jcon1913

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, so would I........especially as private schools in Ireland receive over €100 million in subsidies from the State

Everyone is entitled to free education in Ireland. If people pay for extra classes / grinds / swimming pools / computers / screens / car park they are entitled to do so the spolit offspring who go to these schools fare badly when they go to college because without the grinds / extra help they often fare badly. Ask anyone who has gone to UCD / TCD these trust fund babies have more dropouts / breakdowns in college because they are in courses they are not able for.

Anyway back on point. Public servants are overpaid in Ireland relative to the rest of the world.

Jawgap

Rightwing wrote: »

I'm in full agreement with you on the above issue.

So you're happy for the State to underwrite the running of 56 private educational facilities.......

.......and for the State to dictate that the people who own and operate those facilities can pay their key workers?

Rightwing

Jawgap wrote: »

So you're happy for the State to underwrite the running of 56 private educational facilities.......

.......and for the State to dictate that the people who own and operate those facilities can pay their key workers?

I certainly don't believe it's the right thing to do. But nevertheless people should avail of it.

Jawgap

Rightwing wrote: »

I certainly don't believe it's the right thing to do. But nevertheless people should avail of it.

So you disagree with the system, but you're happy to perpetuate it by supporting it......


......riiiiiiight.

I think you've just realised the lack of consistency in your postings and now you're trying to nonchalantly dismiss it as something trivial.

the best advice I can offer to you is to just get over whatever competition or interview you failed with the PS. Lots don't get in, just move past it........

crusier

jcon1913 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to free education in Ireland. If people pay for extra classes / grinds / swimming pools / computers / screens / car park they are entitled to do so the spolit offspring who go to these schools fare badly when they go to college because without the grinds / extra help they often fare badly. Ask anyone who has gone to UCD / TCD these trust fund babies have more dropouts / breakdowns in college because they are in courses they are not able for.

Anyway back on point. Public servants are overpaid in Ireland relative to the rest of the world.

The Private sector in Ireland when you take away the multinationals with their state support has seriousltly underachieved, that's why so many businesses went to the wall in the crash, they were built on an unsustainable property market, that's why so many heads in the private sector are internationally sourced!

jcon1913

crusier wrote: »

The Private sector in Ireland when you take away the multinationals with their state support has seriousltly underachieved, that's why so many businesses went to the wall in the crash, they were built on an unsustainable property market, that's why so many heads in the private sector are internationally sourced!

Whats all that hot air got to do with overpaid public servants?

crusier

jcon1913 wrote: »

Whats all that hot air got to do with overpaid public servants?

Hot air = Hot air

Rightwing

Jawgap wrote: »

So you disagree with the system, but you're happy to perpetuate it by supporting it......


......riiiiiiight.

I think you've just realised the lack of consistency in your postings and now you're trying to nonchalantly dismiss it as something trivial.

the best advice I can offer to you is to just get over whatever competition or interview you failed with the PS. Lots don't get in, just move past it........

You make too many assumptions for your arguments to hold.

Remember: facts always trumps assumptions.

Jawgap

Rightwing wrote: »

You make too many assumptions for your arguments to hold.

Remember: facts always trumps assumptions.

More puffery to quietly slip away from the argument in the hope no one notices you're points, such as they were.

Goodbye to you......

sarumite

Jawgap wrote: »

So you disagree with the system, but you're happy to perpetuate it by supporting it......


......riiiiiiight.

I think you've just realised the lack of consistency in your postings and now you're trying to nonchalantly dismiss it as something trivial.

the best advice I can offer to you is to just get over whatever competition or interview you failed with the PS. Lots don't get in, just move past it........

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with disagreeing with a system while believing people should avail of it while it exists. I can think of certain tax deductibles that I think the state should get rid of, but I would absolutely avail of them if eligible. A person could choose not to avail of a certain state benefit taking the higher moral ground, but personally I would view them as being somewhat foolish.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

@Rightwing - I'm not sure why you've thanked my post above.

Clearly you've missed the point.

If 'private' schools were truly private they'd be receiving no state subsidies.

they may well benefit from state funding if the government had the balls to bring in a proper voucher scheme, but as things stand they get a 'subsidy.'

It's an example of a private sector activity that could not exist without the substantial and explicit support of the State.

So do you think that the cost of educating all students in private schools should fall back on the state?

Remember that private schools are saving the state money.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

So do you think that the cost of educating all students in private schools should fall back on the state?

Remember that private schools are saving the state money.

No, I think vouchers should be provided to parents for them to use in the school of their choice, supplemented if they want with their own money.

And private schools don't save the state money - if they did then those same schools would not be running surpluses collectively in excess of €80 million. I don't know too many schools in the free scheme running a surplus at 80% or so of capitation.

Point being, money from the state is displacing funding in the private schools allowing them to run up surpluses 'free' schools can only ever dream of.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I think vouchers should be provided to parents for them to use in the school of their choice, supplemented if they want with their own money.

And private schools don't save the state money - if they did then those same schools would not be running surpluses collectively in excess of €80 million. I don't know too many schools in the free scheme running a surplus at 80% or so of capitation.

Point being, money from the state is displacing funding in the private schools allowing them to run up surpluses 'free' schools can only ever dream of.

That's not true. The state spends on average e8000 pa on each student in a secondary state funded school but only 4500 on each student in private school. Therefore the private school sector saves the state around 100m euro pa.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I think vouchers should be provided to parents for them to use in the school of their choice, supplemented if they want with their own money.

And private schools don't save the state money - if they did then those same schools would not be running surpluses collectively in excess of €80 million. I don't know too many schools in the free scheme running a surplus at 80% or so of capitation.

Point being, money from the state is displacing funding in the private schools allowing them to run up surpluses 'free' schools can only ever dream of.

The voucher idea is fine but it would increase the state funding for private schools and would disadvantage deprived areas, communities and individuals.

The system at present works. It relieves the state from some of the cost of secondary schooling, and it keeps down the cost of private education which means that most families can afford the option of private education if they so choose. The English public schools, by comparison, are completely elitist.

Mongfinder General

I wonder how the public sector salaries will hold up against the break up of the Euro. We could see a sharp realignment with the private sector if we are forced into a currency change

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

That's not true. The state spends on average e8000 pa on each student in a secondary state funded school but only 4500 on each student in private school. Therefore the private school sector saves the state around 100m euro pa.

Yes, because the capital costs of the building programme are allocated out against pupils in the free scheme, whereas the buildings in the private schools are not owned by the state and so their costs are not attributed on a per capita basis.

Interesting, you completely ignored the point about surpluses

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

No, I think vouchers should be provided to parents for them to use in the school of their choice, supplemented if they want with their own money.

And private schools don't save the state money - if they did then those same schools would not be running surpluses collectively in excess of €80 million. I don't know too many schools in the free scheme running a surplus at 80% or so of capitation.

Point being, money from the state is displacing funding in the private schools allowing them to run up surpluses 'free' schools can only ever dream of.

So you don't know how much private schools save the state yet you strongly call for funding to be withdrawn from them?

The lowest estimate of the saving they being the state is 30 m as per asti. Can you find a lower estimate?

How very populist of you. Similar to labour's free third level education. It has almost ruined our global ratings and been a regressive transfer from the poor to the middle class.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

The voucher idea is fine but it would increase the state funding for private schools and would disadvantage deprived areas, communities and individuals.

The system at present works. It relieves the state from some of the cost of secondary schooling, and it keeps down the cost of private education which means that most families can afford the option of private education if they so choose. The English public schools, by comparison, are completely elitist.

The system does not work - the outcomes demonstrate that.

And vouchers provide the most important feature - parental choice.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

So you don't know how much private schools save the state yet you strongly call for funding to be withdrawn from them?

The lowest estimate of the saving they being the state is 30 m as per asti. Can you find a lower estimate?

How very populist of you. Similar to labour's free third level education. It has almost ruined our global ratings and been a regressive transfer from the poor to the middle class.

I've no problem with private schools. If parents want to use them that's entirely their decision. But they pull money out of the free scheme - clever accounting to allocate costs etc can be used create notional relativities to show the 'value' of current arrangements, but it cannot disguise the existence of surpluses (retained profits, if it was any other private sector activity) which indicate they are over-funded.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

The system does not work - the outcomes demonstrate that.

And vouchers provide the most important feature - parental choice.

But the current system provides parental choice because under our system private schooling is relatively affordable.

Your suggestion just increases the transfer from the state to wealthier people towards education. If the state currently pays less to private schools than to state funded schools and you want it equalised it just increases the share of funding that goes towards pupils currently paying fees.

The current system is fairer on the poor.

I don't have a problem with private schools so I'm OK with a voucher system which improves state funding for them.

But you seem to be against state funding for private schools. Why then do you propose a new system which increases that funding?

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

I've no problem with private schools. If parents want to use them that's entirely their decision. But they pull money out of the free scheme - clever accounting to allocate costs etc can be used create notional relativities to show the 'value' of current arrangements, but it cannot disguise the existence of surpluses (retained profits, if it was any other private sector activity) which indicate they are over-funded.

Where are the retained profits?

crusier

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I wonder how the public sector salaries will hold up against the break up of the Euro. We could see a sharp realignment with the private sector if we are forced into a currency change

Everyone would be hit and many in the private sector suffered no pay cuts in the recession, ie workers in multinationals subsidised in many ways by the state

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

I've no problem with private schools. If parents want to use them that's entirely their decision. But they pull money out of the free scheme - clever accounting to allocate costs etc can be used create notional relativities to show the 'value' of current arrangements, but it cannot disguise the existence of surpluses (retained profits, if it was any other private sector activity) which indicate they are over-funded.

If you pull the 100m out of all private schools, either the fees double or else tge students are forced to enter tge state system and cost tge state about 200m, twice what tgey do currently. As it is many are being forced to close.

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

The system does not work - the outcomes demonstrate that.

And vouchers provide the most important feature - parental choice.

What do you mean the system does not work?

barneystinson

What's this got to do with Brendan Howlin talking to PS unions about PS pay in the post-FEMPI world..??!!?!

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

Where are the retained profits?

FEE CHARGING SCHOOLS ANALYSIS OF FEE INCOME

Anyway wouldn't these schools be better being totally independent??

That way they'd be free of these deadwood PS teachers people were referring to earlier. Must be terrible to spend circa €20k per year on your kids education then have them educated by Dept of Education funded teachers

ezra_pound

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, because the capital costs of the building programme are allocated out against pupils in the free scheme, whereas the buildings in the private schools are not owned by the state and so their costs are not attributed on a per capita basis.

Interesting, you completely ignored the point about surpluses

Private schools fund all their own facilities and property through fees. I don't know what your point about surpluses is- what surpluses.

Jawgap

ezra_pound wrote: »

What do you mean the system does not work?

I mean if you look at the 'quality' of student that leaves our education system, particularly in maths and science, and compare them to students from other countries they do not stack up well.

Or maybe they're better than I'm making out, and it's the low ranked Irish universities that are wrecking them