Proposed Public sector pay rises

fliball123

Larbre34 wrote: »

You really would not. You need to look at the concept of taxes in their entirety.

Sure, your taxes probably cover some or all of your kids education this year, some or all of your family's health care this year, but it doesnt cover them all at once and certainly doesnt cover them over your lifetime.

And you arent evening thinking of the full economic cost. Imagine if every few days a guy called to your door with an invoice for your ten metres of the local road that was just resurfaced, your square metre of football pitch in the park, your 20 mins of street lighting, you'd be pretty pleased to start paying taxes again that are based loosely on your ability to pay.

Out of an 80 year life, you are probably earning for 45, if you're lucky. Who do you think subsidises you the rest of your time? Think of taxes like an assurance policy for living in a society. The small government 'tea party' thinking holds no water at all.

Look I am not that blinkered and I do understand this but it is immoral to ask that if I had not got private insurance (thank god I do) that if I am ill I would not be slammed on a hospital trolly for a few days? Is that too much to ask?

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

No look back again this was all about comparing the finances of a company like Aldi vs the country. Now you cannot do so without bringing both the debt and deficit into play.

Ah right - we've moved on to Aldi now that Lidl proved not as private as you thought they were

What's next Netto? Ikea?

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Guessing?

They ECB are about to pump more money than Croesus into the Euro economy.

You understand what happens when there's more money chasing the same or fewer goods? Don't you?

Prices rise.

Prices rising means the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders rise.

GDP is the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders in a specific time period - at least it was when I went schule.

And that's even before you get on to factoring in the trading effects.

yeah guessing can you hand on heart tell me what GDP will be next year let alone in 5 years?

Do you have a crystal ball do you know for sure there wont be another recession?

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah right - we've moved on to Aldi now that Lidl proved not as private as you thought they

What's next Netto? Ikea?

Sorry that should of been lidl

so back to the topic..

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancen..._1027770.shtml


Why do public servants think they deserve a payrise when in 2019 the money they gave to support the economy during the bust years will be naturally consumed in 2019 with the current rate of increments?

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

How have I ..a poster starts going on about lidl giving payrises in a increment manner and I have simply asked the question is

How much is lidl in debt
How much is lidl borrowing


and then compare the 2..have a look back ..all the other posts are irrelevant. They have loans of 38 billion yet their profits exceed this and means that they effectively have no debt but you will argue semantics.. I have asked you twice what the profit was and even now what is the cash flow? If you dont want to answer them then dont bother posting back

No, you asked that question first, then you asked

fliball123 wrote: »

Can you show me any evidence of Lidl being in debt?

Just on your analogy is there a + or - figure when the sum of 178billion - 25billion is calculated?

As soon as you were presented with evidence that Lidl borrow you then attempted to twist and turn and contort yourself to demonstrate that the question you asked wasn't the question you asked and it's everyone else's fault for not understanding.......

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

Look I am not that blinkered and I do understand this but it is immoral to ask that if I had not got private insurance (thank god I do) that if I am ill I would not be slammed on a hospital trolly for a few days? Is that too much to ask?

Yes, because in the ED treatment should be based on medical need - not which VHI plan you have.......

........and i say that as someone who has PMI and who spent 24 hours on a trolley in the Mater last June before being admitted.

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

No, you asked that question first, then you asked



As soon as you were presented with evidence that Lidl borrow you then attempted to twist and turn and contort yourself to demonstrate that the question you asked wasn't the question you asked and it's everyone else's fault for not understanding.......

We have been through this phucking hell..there is a difference in borrowing something and being in debt....

Trying to compare the 2 of lidl and Ireland
The deficit , the debt and how much they have borrowed...

Are you telling me that if Lidl was in the predicament that Ireland is in that it would still have its doors open?

If you say yes then there need be no more discussion about it

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, because in the ED treatment should be based on medical need - not which VHI plan you have.......

........and i say that as someone who has PMI and who spent 24 hours on a trolley in the Mater last June before being admitted.

So you support the way our current A&E system is ...Someone please give this guy a round of applause

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah guessing can you hand on heart tell me what GDP will be next year let alone in 5 years?

Do you have a crystal ball do you know for sure there wont be another recession?

It's first year economics - I don't now what the actual figure will be.

But if you expand the money supply there are well known effects - increases in GDP being one one of them - that's why it's being done!!!! You think they're running a QE programme to retard GDP?

Barring some external shock, QE will grow the money supply - that's going to be a problem for us if we're not careful.

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

Why do public servants think they deserve a payrise when in 2019 the money they gave to support the economy during the bust years will be naturally consumed in 2019 with the current rate of increments?

You have increments on the brain.
In a steady state, in which the country will hopefully be in by 2019, the net cost of increments is zero.

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

It's first year economics - I don't now what the actual figure will be.

But if you expand the money supply there are well known effects - increases in GDP being one one of them - that's why it's being done!!!! You think they're running a QE programme to retard GDP?

Barring some external shock, QE will grow the money supply - that's going to be a problem for us if we're not careful.

Thank you so your effectively guessing. As I say you do not know what will happen over the next 5 years..there are lads in year 40 in Economics and even they get it wrong

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

You have increments on the brain.
In a steady state, in which the country will hopefully be in by 2019, the net cost of increments is zero.

not to the people who have to pay extra in tax for them its not.

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

so now that this link is here

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1027770.shtml

How do the public service deserve any payrise when the ps pay and pensions bill will be back up to what we were paying out pre bust (and before the pay cuts) in the year 2019 when annual increments will erode the 1 billion we currently save as of the end of 2014 and this all with 30k less staff aswell

so like I say no need for pay rises

The way I read that, public service pay and pensions is down 12% on the peak cost. Did I miss something?

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

The way I read that, public service pay and pensions is down 12% on the peak cost. Did I miss something?

yeah the 30k workers in local authority not included in the report

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

So you support the way our current A&E system is ...Someone please give this guy a round of applause

I support the principle that medical care should be free at the point of delivery.

I also support the notion that when you are brought into an ED you are triaged and your treatment priority is based on your medical needs, not your wallet, your capacity to pay or which health plan you have.

I don't support the HSE management, but I think our nurses and clinicians and their support staff are a damn fine body of people (notwithstanding the lack of proper accountability).

Now if you want to spin that into some notion that I support the "current A&E system" be my guest - it wouldn't be the first thing you've been wrong about today;)

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

not to the people who have to pay extra in tax for them its not.

What he means by a steady state is this using teachers as an example:

Retired person dies = saving of teacher pension

Person at the top of the scale retires and are replaced by someone at the bottom of the scale = saving of 25 increments for teachers and cost of teacher pension

25 teachers get an increment = cost of 25 increments for teachers

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

not to the people who have to pay extra in tax for them its not.

OK then, explain to me, and the rest of us, why increments require additional taxes in a steady state situation.

People retire or leave.
Other people are promoted to take their place
People enter at the bottom
net cost = zero .

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah the 30k workers in local authority not included in the report

If they weren't included at the start of the report and at the end of the report, they make no difference to the percentage drop in cost.

Do you understand the maths?

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

Thank you so your effectively guessing. As I say you do not know what will happen over the next 5 years..there are lads in year 40 in Economics and even they get it wrong

I'm not guessing - most economists would agree that expanding the money supply grows GDP. They may differ about the degree of growth or how 'lumpy' it might be.

Again, if it wasn't going to grow economies why would they be doing it? Just to give the lads running the printing presses a bit of overtime?

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

What he means by a steady state is this using teachers as an example:

Retired person dies = saving of teacher pension

Person at the top of the scale retires and are replaced by someone at the bottom of the scale = saving of 25 increments for teachers and cost of teacher pension

25 teachers get an increment = cost of 25 increments for teachers

Except those parameters have changed as in we live a lot longer now meaning we have to pay more to the retiree than was envisaged and the parameters will continue to change. so now we will have 2 people getting their pensions instead of one

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

OK then, explain to me, and the rest of us, why increments require additional taxes in a steady state situation.

People retire or leave.
Other people are promoted to take their place
People enter at the bottom
net cost = zero .

People live longer, the wages (if you look pre bust) were going up (benchmarking etc) meaning people starting out were on more.

So nett cost = 2nd person grabbing a pension or older person not dying sooner and additional costs to wage increases.

if there was a net cost = zero sum on this then why is there a problem funding public sector pensions?

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

People live longer, the wages (if you look pre bust) were going up (benchmarking etc) meaning people starting out were on more.

So nett cost = 2nd person grabbing a pension or older person not dying sooner and additional costs to wage increases.

if there was a net cost = zero sum on this then why is there a problem funding public sector pensions?

Stop trying to avoid the point, people living longer has nothing whatsoever to do with increments.

OMD

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No, but I have first hand experience of many people not getting them.

Underperformance is still an issue that needs tackling though.

Back to increments and those who say increments are performance based only:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0726/330750-civil-servants-to-face-tougher-performance-ratings/
"The existing system was criticised when it emerged that last year only 30 out of around 30,000 civil servants were denied increments for poor performance."

Looks like 1 in a thousand failed to get increments. Maybe all were not entitled but with only 30 not getting them it is safe to "everyone got their increment" in 2011, 3 years into our financial crisis. God knows how many got them in the good times.

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

How have I ..a poster starts going on about lidl giving payrises in a increment manner and I have simply asked the question is

How much is lidl in debt
How much is lidl borrowing


and then compare the 2..have a look back ..all the other posts are irrelevant. They have loans of 38 billion yet their profits exceed this and means that they effectively have no debt but you will argue semantics.. I have asked you twice what the profit was and even now what is the cash flow? If you dont want to answer them then dont bother posting back

But I thought the private sector didn't have incremental based salaries ... only in the PS is the usual rant on here.

As you don't thing its appropriate to compare a private sector comany to a State .. do you think Ireland as a State is unique is having significant levels of debt. Presumably successful states like Germany, the UK, the US, Japan, etc, etc, are debt free ..

Jawgap

OMD wrote: »

Back to increments and those who say increments are performance based only:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0726/330750-civil-servants-to-face-tougher-performance-ratings/
"The existing system was criticised when it emerged that last year only 30 out of around 30,000 civil servants were denied increments for poor performance."

Looks like 1 in a thousand failed to get increments. Maybe all were not entitled but with only 30 not getting them it is safe to "everyone got their increment" in 2011, 3 years into our financial crisis. God knows how many got them in the good times.

What the stats don't show is the number who were tackled at their mid-year review and who corrected their performances in Q3 and Q4.

OMD

Jawgap wrote: »

do you just not understand how business works?

Profit is a nebulous concept - it's notional - it's not cash.

If I borrow from the bank it has to be repaid, that's why it is noted as debt on the balance sheet. I can be the most profitable company in the world but if I don't have the cash flow to meet my debt repayments I'm screwed (or at least at the mercy of my lenders).

Here's Apple's Balance Sheet - yes they are very solvent and cash generative - but they are in debt to the tune of $35 billion, as indicated by the figures opposite "Short/Current Long Term Debt" and "Long Term Debt"

Even on their Cashflow statement there's a figure for "Net Borrowings" and theire Key Stats include a figure ($36.4 billion) for "Total Debt."

Sounds like you should be an auditor......

Not sure you know what a balance sheet is. Assets must equal liabilities on a balance sheet.

OMD

Jawgap wrote: »

What the stats don't show is the number who were tackled at their mid-year review and who corrected their performances in Q3 and Q4.

Yeah right. That explains the 99.9%.
Now if you can prove that, fair enough, otherwise I shall call it bull****

sbkenn

Jawgap wrote: »

The Irish private sector funds some of the public sector. Some public sector bodies are revenue generative and draw in money and income from outside the State.

A little, and at significant cost. What is their net balance ?
Many people have taken pay cuts, many people lost their jobs with little or no compensation.
CS and PS have their pensions ... guaranteed pensions. My meager pension fund lost 30% of it's value almost overnight, in 2007. I had worked for nearly 10 years without any increment. I have also worked 70 hour weeks with nothing paid above my basic salary. That was quite common in my industry. I had 20 days/annum for holidays, and 3 uncertified sick days, which I only used if I was sick ... ditto for my colleagues.
In a Co.Co. office one Friday, there was a mass exodus just before 3PM. That is quite common although the office stays open until 5. Offices don't open to the public until 10 ?, and generally close at 4. It is not as though there are too many "customers" for them to carry out administrative stuff during the day.
Very few CS or PS people realy know what a HARD day's work is, and would probably go on strike if they were asked to do it, even with o/t pay. Then, if they got o/t for a while and it was cut, they would go on strike over loss of earnings.
Senior CS and PS, get a good salary, plus a LOT of un-receipted allowances. Try collecting your receipts and only submit a claim for what was actually necessary and spent. One person I know, drove from Dublin to Letterkenny to deliver a document ... which wasn't even particularly urgent, then claimed mileage and subsistence for the trip.
Manual workers generally actually work for 4 hours/day, even if just operating machinery ... if they are keen. I lived beside where one guy was supposed to be working. Over 3 months, I reckon that he actually worked about 60 hours. Most of the time he was sleeping in the cab of his truck. Every couple of hours, he would emerge, walk 100m up, then back ... into his truck for another snooze or phone chat. !!! So much fraud at the taxpayers expense.

End of rant ... for now

chopper6

sbkenn wrote: »

In a Co.Co. office one Friday, there was a mass exodus just before 3PM. That is quite common although the office stays open until 5. Offices don't open to the public until 10 ?, and generally close at 4. It is not as though there are too many "customers" for them to carry out administrative stuff during the day.
Very few CS or PS people realy know what a HARD day's work is, and would probably go on strike if they were asked to do it, even with o/t pay. Then, if they got o/t for a while and it was cut, they would go on strike over loss of earnings.
Senior CS and PS, get a good salary, plus a LOT of un-receipted allowances. Try collecting your receipts and only submit a claim for what was actually necessary and spent. One person I know, drove from Dublin to Letterkenny to deliver a document ... which wasn't even particularly urgent, then claimed mileage and subsistence for the trip.
Manual workers generally actually work for 4 hours/day, even if just operating machinery ... if they are keen. I lived beside where one guy was supposed to be working. Over 3 months, I reckon that he actually worked about 60 hours. Most of the time he was sleeping in the cab of his truck. Every couple of hours, he would emerge, walk 100m up, then back ... into his truck for another snooze or phone chat. !!! So much fraud at the taxpayers expense.

End of rant ... for now

An absolute pack of lies..everything you said,you've just made up.

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

Except those parameters have changed as in we live a lot longer now meaning we have to pay more to the retiree than was envisaged and the parameters will continue to change. so now we will have 2 people getting their pensions instead of one

No, those parameters only change if people live for 40 years beyond retirement at 65. Don't see any evidence of that.

There are other ways in which those parameters change, see if you can spot them, and then factor in the changes in the public sector since 2008.

Do you know why the C&AG hasn't updated its 2008 report on the actuarial cost of public service pensions? A guess? No, well here is the answer. The actuarial costs are likely to have dropped by a third and that isn't the story that people want to hear. Why? Because the assumptions in the 2008 report for the time up to 2015 have proved to be completely wrong.