Proposed Public sector pay rises

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Sure

Lidl Borrows $66 Million to Fund Romania Expansion, ZF Says

Not sure what your second point is about. Apple have $178 billion in cash and near cash equivalents being managed by their wholly owned vehicle Braeburn Capital - effectively it's a giant hedge fund which Apple own 100% of.

they have $35 billion in issued debt

giving them a net cash SURPLUS of about $142 or $143 billion - give or take a billion, but sure who is counting.

And it may be worth noting that Enron was, apparently according to its filings, one of the least indebted companies in the energy sector

Now go and check how much profit Lidl have made and if that is more than 35billion then its not really a debt is it.

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

Now go and check how much profit Lidl have made and if that is more than 35billion then its not really a debt is it.

Of course it's debt!

And what has '35billion' got to do with anything?

APPLE have borrowings of $35 billion - it has to be repaid, therefore it is debt.

It's even on their balance sheet as debt!

Long Term Debt 28,987 million
Short/Current Long Term Debt 6,308 million

You asked if there was any evidence of Lidl being in debt and I linked to a Bloomberg story about them borrowing $66 million - that has to be paid back, therefore it's a debt.

Perhaps don't apply for that job in the PS just yet.........at least until you understand the difference between solvency and debt.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

This is the problem at the moment no one knows so everyone gets them regardless of if your a horse of a worker or if your a dosser having a nap

No they don't.

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course it's debt!

And what has '35billion' got to do with anything?

APPLE have borrowings of $35 billion - it has to be repaid, therefore it is debt.

It's even on their balance sheet as debt!

Long Term Debt 28,987 million
Short/Current Long Term Debt 6,308 million

You asked if there was any evidence of Lidl being in debt and I linked to a Bloomberg story about them borrowing $66 million - that has to be paid back, therefore it's a debt.

Perhaps don't apply for that job in the PS just yet.........at least until you understand the difference between solvency and debt.

FFS if you go and borrow 35Billion and you have made a profit of 36Billion your not really in debt .. Can you tell me the fgure at the end of the balance sheet is a + or a - ???

usually a debt denotes a loan that has some how gone wrong and the borrower is either under pressure or not able to pay it

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

FFS if you go and borrow 35Billion and you have made a profit of 36Billion your not really in debt .. Can you tell me the fgure at the end of the balance sheet is a + or a - ???

do you just not understand how business works?

Profit is a nebulous concept - it's notional - it's not cash.

If I borrow from the bank it has to be repaid, that's why it is noted as debt on the balance sheet. I can be the most profitable company in the world but if I don't have the cash flow to meet my debt repayments I'm screwed (or at least at the mercy of my lenders).

Here's Apple's Balance Sheet - yes they are very solvent and cash generative - but they are in debt to the tune of $35 billion, as indicated by the figures opposite "Short/Current Long Term Debt" and "Long Term Debt"

Even on their Cashflow statement there's a figure for "Net Borrowings" and theire Key Stats include a figure ($36.4 billion) for "Total Debt."

Sounds like you should be an auditor......

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

so now that this link is here

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1027770.shtml

How do the public service deserve any payrise when the ps pay and pensions bill will be back up to what we were paying out pre bust (and before the pay cuts) in the year 2019 when annual increments will erode the 1 billion we currently save as of the end of 2014 and this all with 30k less staff aswell

In 2019 GDP will be some 22% higher than before the bust.

I await some sort of rant about the fall of Euro and that dollar GDP won't be any higher...

But think about all of the increments paid since the foundation of the State, I'm surprised that PS pay is not now twice GDP.

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

FFS if you go and borrow 35Billion and you have made a profit of 36Billion your not really in debt .. Can you tell me the fgure at the end of the balance sheet is a + or a - ???

usually a debt denotes a loan that has some how gone wrong and the borrower is either under pressure or not able to pay it

I see you've stopped referring to Lidl.......oh dear!

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

Now go and check how much profit Lidl have made and if that is more than 35billion then its not really a debt is it.

Do you think public services should be run as a profitable enterprise? How would your pocket fare out if it were. You €1000 for private education would not go too far if it were not being subsidised by taxpayers money

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

do you just not understand how business works?

Profit is a nebulous concept - it's notional - it's not cash.

If I borrow from the bank it has to be repaid, that's why it is noted as debt on the balance sheet. I can be the most profitable company in the world but if I don't have the cash flow to meet my debt repayments I'm screwed (or at least at the mercy of my lenders).

Here's Apple's Balance Sheet - yes they are very solvent and cash generative - but they are in debt to the tune of $35 billion, as indicated by the figures opposite "Short/Current Long Term Debt" and "Long Term Debt"

Even on their Cashflow statement there's a figure for "Net Borrowings" and theire Key Stats include a figure ($36.4 billion) for "Total Debt."

Sounds like you should be an auditor......

And what is the phucking figure for profit as debt would follow the same rules as profit it may also not be cash it is also notional.

This is just going to go around in circles so just to break this out of it I asked at the start a company borrowing and broke so are these broke..

Paulzx

fliball123 wrote: »

the phucking .

Why do you feel the need to use that phrase in every second post?

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

In 2019 GDP will be some 22% higher than before the bust.

I await some sort of rant about the fall of Euro and that dollar GDP won't be any higher...

But think about all of the increments paid since the foundation of the State, I'm surprised that PS pay is not now twice GDP.

Are you pulling that 22% out of your a$$ or have you got figures to back it up. As the Euro and the current bout of QE will have an effect on this.

AS for the increments they have cost us about 200million each year since 2008 as can be seen on the link I gave you

Paulzx

fliball123 wrote: »

usually a debt denotes a loan that has some how gone wrong and the borrower is either under pressure or not able to pay it

Sorry????

A debt is a debt irrespective of whether you can afford to pay it back.

If i borrow 10 euro yet i earn 100K a year I'm still in "debt" until i pay it back. Just because i can afford to pay it back doesn't make it any less a debt

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

Do you think public services should be run as a profitable enterprise? How would your pocket fare out if it were. You €1000 for private education would not go too far if it were not being subsidised by taxpayers money

Someone in the public sector made the comparison and has sidelined the thread again..

But I would be a lot better off with the amount of tax I pay if it were all were private and I could pick and choose when and which services I wanted.

How does anyone subsidise my kids education can you prove that to me..The amount of tax my wife and I pay both directly and indirectly more than covers education.

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

FFS if you go and borrow 35Billion and you have made a profit of 36Billion your not really in debt .. Can you tell me the fgure at the end of the balance sheet is a + or a - ???

I'm going to agree with you here.

It's not really a debt in terms of the commercial work it would be defined as working capital financing and so on etc they are different.

Even in companies accounts that wouldn't described as a debt but as a liability.

You see the private sector learndefied me

The Muppet

Paulzx wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to use that phrase in every second post?

It's a shock tactic. Works every time wiith me.

fliball123

Paulzx wrote: »

Sorry????

A debt is a debt irrespective of whether you can afford to pay it back.

If i borrow 10 euro yet i earn 100K a year I'm still in "debt" until i pay it back. Just because i can afford to pay it back doesn't make it any less a debt

This is a redundant argument. The original argument was in debt and borrowing (which is the financial predicament the country finds itself in) are lidl or phucking any of the other companies in this pearl? If so show me otherwise cut the ****e out.

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

And what is the phucking figure for profit as debt would follow the same rules as profit it may also not be cash it is also notional.

This is just going to go around in circles so just to break this out of it I asked at the start a company borrowing and broke so are these broke..

No you started banging on about Lidl not borrowing - when it was demonstrated that they do (like all companies) you've tried to deflect.

Debt is not notional in the same way profit is - in fact if you're running a business you'll hear a lot about the 'discipline of debt' because it has to be repaid - debts falling due need cash. And cash, as the saying goes is reality - (profit is sanity and turnover is vanity).

The companies are not 'broke' - they are trading and trading very well in the case of Apple (and no doubt Lidl too judging by their UK tax returns) - but that doesn't mean they are not owe debts. That debt may well be modest compared to their cash positions but it's still debt.

The important comparator to debt is not profit but cashflow - if the debt can't be serviced it doesn't matter how profitable the company is, it's going to to have problems.

Paulzx

fliball123 wrote: »

This is a redundant argument. The original argument was in debt and borrowing (which is the financial predicament the country finds itself in) are lidl or phucking any of the other companies in this pearl? If so show me otherwise cut the ****e out.

:(

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

Someone in the public sector made the comparison and has sidelined the thread again..

But I would be a lot better off with the amount of tax I pay if it were all were private and I could pick and choose when and which services I wanted.

How does anyone subsidise my kids education can you prove that to me..The amount of tax my wife and I pay both directly and indirectly more than covers education.

No you would not be better off if you had pay commercial rates. For all the services available in this country .

I have news for you the tax you pay is not to fund your own lifestyle. It's to cover the overheads in running the country for all it's citizens. Rich and poor alike.

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

No you started banging on about Lidl not borrowing - when it was demonstrated that they do (like all companies) you've tried to deflect.

Debt is not notional in the same way profit is - in fact if you're running a business you'll hear a lot about the 'discipline of debt' because it has to be repaid - debts falling due need cash. And cash, as the saying goes is reality - (profit is sanity and turnover is vanity).

The companies are not 'broke' - they are trading and trading very well in the case of Apple (and no doubt Lidl too judging by their UK tax returns) - but that doesn't mean they are not owe debts. That debt may well be modest compared to their cash positions but it's still debt.

The important comparator to debt is not profit but cashflow - if the debt can't be serviced it doesn't matter how profitable the company is, it's going to to have problems.

No look back again this was all about comparing the finances of a company like Aldi vs the country. Now you cannot do so without bringing both the debt and deficit into play.

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

Are you pulling that 22% out of your a$$ or have you got figures to back it up. As the Euro and the current bout of QE will have an effect on this.

AS for the increments they have cost us about 200million each year since 2008 as can be seen on the link I gave you

Yes the ECB's QE will massively expand GDP!!

If anything our problem is making sure the GDP growth is manageable and make sure the QE programme doesn't cause things to heat up to much here.

fliball123

The Muppet wrote: »

No you would not be better off if you had pay commercial rates. For all the services available in this country .

I have news for you the tax you pay is not to fund your own lifestyle. It's to cover the overheads in running the country for all it's citizens. Rich and poor alike.

How the hell do you know do you know how much tax i pay ..No you dont so dont wax on lyrical about things you know nothing about.

My taxes should provide me a decent service for what I pay and I simply do not get that..

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes the ECB's QE will massively expand GDP!!

If anything our problem is making sure the GDP growth is manageable and make sure the QE programme doesn't cause things to heat up to much here.

Well lets see how it plays out like me its all guessing at the moment

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

This is a redundant argument. The original argument was in debt and borrowing (which is the financial predicament the country finds itself in) are lidl or phucking any of the other companies in this pearl? If so show me otherwise cut the ****e out.

Ah yes, "deflection - for when you've really shown yourself up"

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

How the hell do you know do you know how much tax i pay ..No you dont so dont wax on lyrical about things you know nothing about.

My taxes should provide me a decent service for what I pay and I simply do not get that..

I don't need to know exact figures' you pay the same percentage as everyone else .

fliball123

so back to the topic..after finally putting to bed that the side track was lidl vs Ireland and both debt and deficit need to be looked at.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancen..._1027770.shtml


Why do public servants think they deserve a payrise when in 2019 the money they gave to support the economy during the bust years will be naturally consumed in 2019 with the current rate of increments?

Larbre34

fliball123 wrote: »

But I would be a lot better off with the amount of tax I pay if it were all were private and I could pick and choose when and which services I wanted.

How does anyone subsidise my kids education can you prove that to me..The amount of tax my wife and I pay both directly and indirectly more than covers education.

You really would not. You need to look at the concept of taxes in their entirety.

Sure, your taxes probably cover some or all of your kids education this year, some or all of your family's health care this year, but it doesnt cover them all at once and certainly doesnt cover them over your lifetime.

And you arent evening thinking of the full economic cost. Imagine if every few days a guy called to your door with an invoice for your ten metres of the local road that was just resurfaced, your square metre of football pitch in the park, your 20 mins of street lighting, you'd be pretty pleased to start paying taxes again that are based loosely on your ability to pay.

Out of an 80 year life, you are probably earning for 45, if you're lucky. Who do you think subsidises you the rest of your time? Think of taxes like an assurance policy for living in a society. The small government 'tea party' thinking holds no water at all.

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah yes, "deflection - for when you've really shown yourself up"

How have I ..a poster starts going on about lidl giving payrises in a increment manner and I have simply asked the question is

How much is lidl in debt
How much is lidl borrowing


and then compare the 2..have a look back ..all the other posts are irrelevant. They have loans of 38 billion yet their profits exceed this and means that they effectively have no debt but you will argue semantics.. I have asked you twice what the profit was and even now what is the cash flow? If you dont want to answer them then dont bother posting back

The Muppet

fliball123 wrote: »

so back to the topic..after finally putting to bed that the side track was lidl vs Ireland and both debt and deficit need to be looked at.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancen..._1027770.shtml


Why do public servants think they deserve a payrise when in 2019 the money they gave to support the economy during the bust years will be naturally consumed in 2019 with the current rate of increments?

Here's a question for you fliball.

Suppose you were on you uppers and I agreed to give you 15% of my wages until you got yourself back on you feet. When your situation improved Would you still expect me to give you my money or would you do the honourable thing and stop taking my money ?

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

Well lets see how it plays out like me its all guessing at the moment

Guessing?

They ECB are about to pump more money than Croesus into the Euro economy.

You understand what happens when there's more money chasing the same or fewer goods? Don't you?

Prices rise.

Prices rising means the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders rise.

GDP is the monetary value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders in a specific time period - at least it was when I went schule.

And that's even before you get on to factoring in the trading effects.