Proposed Public sector pay rises

noodler

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're wrong.

Increments are based on reaching acceptable levels of performance and sick leave.

chopper6 wrote: »

They're not published..anymore than they are in the private sector.

The Civil Service ones are in the public domain.

As I posted yesterday

Cleveland Hot Pocket

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Shall we just take your word for it or are you going to attempt to debunk it?

Frankly I couldnt give a toss what you want to do tbh

ardmacha

creedp wrote: »

I recently read about management positions in Lidl/Aldi with a starting salary of someting around €65k rising to over €90k in 4 years. Now I'm interested in does that mean that this private sector job has an incremental salary scale which automatically awards increments subject to meeting agreed performance targets or do Lidl award 38% pay increases over 4 years to their staff?

Ah but Lidl are providing an important customer service, for which there is demand, unlike the likes of St Vincent's hospital.
Or is it the other way around?
Aren't they?

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Underperformance needs to be tackled, without a shadow of a doubt.

As a Civil Servant and tax payer (though you probably disputes that) I am against waste in the CS. However, I'd suggest underperformance isn't as big an issue as you probably think it is as times have changed unbelievably over the last 7/8 years.

Also, by definition, an under performing Civil Servant CANNOT get an increment and isn't even eligible to go for promotion.

I never disputed that you were a tax payer but you are a nett receiver of tax there is a difference. As in your whole wage is paid out of tax yet you pay some of it back via tax..

Listen any company/institution giving a payrise at a rate of 99.9% out of 100% of the people who maybe entitled to this payrise would by its nature not be a payrise on performance but on time served.

How can you stat underperformance isnt a big issue with the amount of scandals over even the last year so lets say one area HSE.. How many investigations into deaths or malpractise was there..Not to mention the trollies issues..I am not attacking fronline here but the people who manage this sure as hell should of been fired..So what happened to minister Hogan..oh yeah he did a kevin Cardiff got a pay rise and was put out of the way..He was dealt with the PUBLIC SECTOR WAY

Your post would have credence if you actually think we do not hear about the stuff that goes on in there pal.

bobbysands81

noodler wrote: »

Do you know the rates of approval?

No, but I have first hand experience of many people not getting them.

Underperformance is still an issue that needs tackling though.

K-9

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

As some poster put it a couple of posts above this, the PS will be easily bought in the run up to the next GE.
So easily bought.....and sold.....these shallow people.
Increments all along, (not pay rises mind and if they don't get them they class it as a pay cut) and still they crib and moan.
The disgusting sense of entitlement these people have is just that........disgusting.
We should have kept the troika here to put some manners on them.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

No chance.
Working in the PS wouldn't appeal to me in the slightest.
I'll stick to running and expanding my own business, thank you.
I don't have, nor never had, the sense of entitlement that would allow me take a position in the PS.
And thank God for that.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

How's that?
I've never received a grant from the state in my life.
I'm an employer and my business helps keeps other businesses going, so I'm a nett contributor to the exchequer of this country.

It takes a certain kind of mindset to work in the PS and as I've said, I don't have it.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Jesus wept.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Who pays his wages?

Some amount of pedantic sh1te on here now, it's laughable.:rolleyes:

PS/CS. Same difference. Paid from exchequer funds.

This thread is a joke.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

We can see from the last couple of pages the reasons why the CS/PS is so hard to reform.
The troika should have have been kept here until some proper manners was put on these people.
A thread about pay rises that the private sector funds for these people is hijacked by pedantic little cs/ps posters claiming to be different from each other.

You are all paid using the same pot of money.

No difference.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

Pedantic again.
Is that a cs/ps trait or requirement?

My dealings with the motor tax office in the last 3 weeks would suggest that it most certainly is.

The NTMA is paid from the public purse.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

The lads got safely to the office I see.

DeJa VooDoo wrote: »

More deflection now.
Once the cs or ps sh1te is over with, they start comparing themselves to bondholders and bankers.

What a joke.

That's enough trolling thank you.

Banned.

Jawgap

fliball123 wrote: »

I never disputed that you were a tax payer but you are a nett receiver of tax there is a difference. As in your whole wage is paid out of tax yet you pay some of it back via tax..

Do people seriously believe that the only way a government raises money is through tax

bobbysands81

fliball123 wrote: »

I never disputed that you were a tax payer but you are a nett receiver of tax there is a difference. As in your whole wage is paid out of tax yet you pay some of it back via tax..

Listen any company/institution giving a payrise at a rate of 99.9% out of 100% of the people who maybe entitled to this payrise would by its nature not be a payrise on performance but on time served.

How can you stat underperformance isnt a big issue with the amount of scandals over even the last year so lets say one area HSE.. How many investigations into deaths or malpractise was there..Not to mention the trollies issues..I am not attacking fronline here but the people who manage this sure as hell should of been fired..So what happened to minister Hogan..oh yeah he did a kevin Cardiff got a pay rise and was put out of the way..He was dealt with the PUBLIC SECTOR WAY

Your post would have credence if you actually think we do not hear about the stuff that goes on in there pal. Or if you think that people on here dont interact with the public servants on a daily basis.

300,000 public servants and you cite Kevin Cardiff and Phil Hogan as representative of the wider public service.

I was waiting 5 minutes to be served in a shop there, I don't draw conclusions for the entire private sector based on that.

I have stated that underperformance is an issue that needs tackling so why are you saying I said the opposite?

You sound like a jealous ex anytime there's mention of the PS on here, I bet you tried to get the CS exams but didn't quite make the cut.

fliball123

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

Stop talking sh1te. Get your facts right first.
Increments only happen for people who are new their job until they reach the top of their scale (10-20 years typically). Most PS are top of their scale and haven't received an increment for a very long time.

Mine last increment was 6 years ago and (unless I get a promotion onto a new scale) I'll never see one again.

So stop talking rubbish.

Where am I talking ****e..These increments are costing the tax payer money pal and they are also increasing the public sector pension burden aswell ..So I am not talking ****e. These increments should of stopped at the time of the crash and not reinstated until the deficit was bridged and now you guys want pay rises on top.

the way this government has dealt with spending on public servants pay and pensions has been a joke and is akin to trying to empty a swimming pool by taking buckets of water out of the deep end and throwing it back into the shallow end

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1027770.shtml

The PS pay and pensions bill is down a massive 6% now thats with 10% less staff (not being paid) after the optional, show them the money redundancies that happened.

Now you guys want pay rises when this 6% will be reduced even further with the annual increments this year? REALLY

Since 2007 annual increments has cost us north of 1.4 billion and as i stated multiples of this when the effect is passed onto the pensions..

But dont let actual facts get in the way of you guys spinning that you had it hard...

You cut your numbers by 10% and in years of the crash we the tax payer have only been able to save 6% on the bill we have to pay for it and now you want pay rises...

I am actually here typing this with a sense of disbelieve

noodler

bobbysands81 wrote: »

No, but I have first hand experience of many people not getting them.

Underperformance is still an issue that needs tackling though.

30 out of 30,000 in the Civil Service in 2012 btw.

If you work in the CS then your area/unit must be a statistical anomaly.

bobbysands81

noodler wrote: »

30 out of 30,000 in the Civil Service in 2012 btw.

If you work in the CS then your area/unit must be a statistical anomaly.

Multiples of that amount have been refused increments.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

Where are underperformers given promtions?

your tripe is veering towards libel.

Kevin Cardiff, Minister James Reilly are 2 of the more high profile lads who underperfomed or made phuckups and where promoted out of the way..Do you dispute this?

noodler

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Multiples of that amount have been refused increments.

Explian that statement please.

The 2012 figures state that only 30 of the total number eligable for an increment were refused it on the grounds of performance (i.e. they got less than a 2/5 on their PMDS which was required at the time - it is now 3/5).

fliball123

Jawgap wrote: »

Seriously? - if some way was bought in to properly identify, quantify and reward excellent performance and sanction below par performance, are you saying the public will suddenly rally and support pay restoration for the public sector?

BTW- I'm all for turning up the heat on under-performing teachers and bolstering parent power, but even I recognise the problems associated with measuring performance in the education sector......

Who's the better teacher - the one who has the most students achieving A's or the one who turns the D student into the B student? What about the one in the rough inner city school who gets the kids as far as the LC? or the one who doesn't 'teach to the test' but provides a broader educational experience?

And who is going to measure this performance? Again, I've no problems with an OFSTED-like body being set up here, but aren't we trying to reduce the number of qunagoes? Then after all that, what's to stop the private schools hoovering up the teachers with the best performance ratings - turning the 'free' education system into a training ground for the fee paying sector?

I cant speak for all of the private sector but a number of issues would have to happen before I would support pay rises
If pay increments stopped and an actual proper performance mechanism which was tied to the finances of the country was introduced I would have no bother with hard working people in the ps getting payrises on merit.

As for how its done its simple most companies implement a strategy for giving pay rises that would be based on how the company is performing, how the individuals department is performing and how the individual is performing..This would be driven by giving goals at individual and department level at the start of the year. At a company level its simply how much profit they have.

Something similar should happen with the public sector..

I would also reverse pension levy once the defined benefit nature of public sector pensions is removed. If you want a pension pay for it yourself

bobbysands81

noodler wrote: »

Explian that statement please.

The 2012 figures state that only 30 of the total number eligable for an increment were refused it on the grounds of performance (i.e. they got less than a 2/5 on their PMDS which was required at the time - it is now 3/5).

Far higher amounts get refused increment because of other reasons mainly sick leave.

fliball123

creedp wrote: »

I recently read about management positions in Lidl/Aldi with a starting salary of someting around €65k rising to over €90k in 4 years. Now I'm interested in does that mean that this private sector job has an incremental salary scale which automatically awards increments subject to meeting agreed performance targets or do Lidl award 38% pay increases over 4 years to their staff?

No but you can sure as ****e that if the manager acts the job****e and scratches his arse while he works there he will be on the dole queue pronto.

How much did Lidl borrow last year?
How much are Lidl in debt this year?

Nice try

fliball123

bobbysands81 wrote: »

300,000 public servants and you cite Kevin Cardiff and Phil Hogan as representative of the wider public service.

I was waiting 5 minutes to be served in a shop there, I don't draw conclusions for the entire private sector based on that.

I have stated that underperformance is an issue that needs tackling so why are you saying I said the opposite?

You sound like a jealous ex anytime there's mention of the PS on here, I bet you tried to get the CS exams but didn't quite make the cut.

Naill on the head there...The shop you were waiting 5 minutes for you will probably not go there again if the service was so poor..Unfortunately we dont get that option with our public services..... You see I site these 2 as they are the high profile guys I have heard of shannangans going on in there and this is how they deal with people not pulling their weight..So I put these 2 up as they are indisputable evidence (as I will get the usual you know someone argument) as to how the public sector deals with this.

Jealous ex what are you spouting about. Anytime I hear the PS want a payrise which will as a consequence be taken out of my pocket via taxation I do pipe up is that ok with you...

Never tried to get into the public sector

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1027770.shtml

The PS pay and pensions bill is down a massive 6% now thats with 10% less staff (not being paid) after the optional, show them the money redundancies that happened.

If you are a product of the Irish education system then your limited ability to comprehend statistics is more damning of the PS than anything you've managed to extract.

By using the pay and pensions bill you ensure that the staff numbers are much the same as they still receive pensions. Expenditure on the old age pension, paid mainly to private sector people and for which many of the PS people are not eligible, is up 38% since 2007, so if there is a deficit it is fairly clear who is getting the loot and it is not the PS.

But as a mitigating factor perhaps the most useful part of that article is that the Dept of Public Expenditure data is crap, making intelligent analysis difficult. People should demand of government that they provide proper data.

Ctrl Alt Delete

noodler wrote: »

30 out of 30,000 in the Civil Service in 2012 btw.

If you work in the CS then your area/unit must be a statistical anomaly.

have you a link to that ?

I would be interested to see the category breakdown of reasons for refusal as I strongly suspect you may be cherrypicking one number.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

Ah but Lidl are providing an important customer service, for which there is demand, unlike the likes of St Vincent's hospital.
Or is it the other way around?
Aren't they?

I would say providing food is important, and the most important bit you do not like your customer experience there you can head over to Dunnes

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

If you are a product of the Irish education system then your limited ability to comprehend statistics is more damning of the PS than anything you've managed to extract.

By using the pay and pensions bill you ensure that the staff numbers are much the same as they still receive pensions. Expenditure on the old age pension, paid mainly to private sector people and for which many of the PS people are not eligible, is up 38% since 2007, so if there is a deficit it is fairly clear who is getting the loot and it is not the PS.

But as a mitigating factor perhaps the most useful part of that article is that the Dept of Public Expenditure data is crap, making intelligent analysis difficult. People should demand of government that they provide proper data.

Do we have to pay for ps pensions..yes we do regardless of your personal attacks the math is there for you to do..We have 10% less employed now then back in 2007 where the public sector pay and penions bill was 17.6 billion now having cut the numbers by 10% you would of expected to saved maybe 1.7 billion off this and according to people on here the cuts with the pension levy have lead to an overall cut of 25% so say leave it at 20% so you would of expected to save another what??? 3billion on our annual costs..

so we should saved in the area of 4.5Billion on our annual costs on what we pay for our public sector pay and pensions if we believe what these guys are spinning yet last year the cost is only about a billion less than it was back in 2007..

Like I say akin to emptying a swimming pool by taking water out of the deep end and throwing it back in the shallow end.

noodler

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Far higher amounts get refused increment because of other reasons mainly sick leave.

So, you agree then? Only 30 were refused increments based on performance?

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

have you a link to that ?

I would be interested to see the category breakdown of reasons for refusal as I strongly suspect you may be cherrypicking one number.

http://www.thejournal.ie/civil-service-pay-rises-to-be-linked-with-stricter-performance-reviews-536062-Jul2012/


I strongly suspect you should get your facts straight before making silly comments.

Christ, the fact you couldn't just ask for the link but had to go and make yourself look foolish in the process.

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

pensions bill was 17.6 billion now having cut the numbers by 10% you would of expected to saved maybe 1.7 billion off this

You do realise that just because you leave the PS does not mean you forego your right to the pension?

I worked in PS for 15 years before moving to the private sector. I will still be entitled to my PS pension based on those 15 years of contributions (even if it is a pittance)

fliball123

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

You do realise that just because you leave the PS does not mean you forego your right to the pension?

I worked in PS for 15 years before moving to the private sector. I will still be entitled to my PS pension based on those 15 years of contributions (even if it is a pittance)

I do yeah but if you leave the public service shouldnt you be saving on their pay?

The maths is there and sound for you to do

As you can see here at the time of redundancies between 2008 and 2010 the pay bill went down by just under 2 billion

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.per.gov.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FAnalysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2007-20121.pdf&ei=PTbKVKdF6bLtBqWkgJAO&usg=AFQjCNEL7EtdEaXWERck97FUEtM_uiMRyw&bvm=bv.84607526,d.ZGU

Ctrl Alt Delete

noodler wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/civil-service-pay-rises-to-be-linked-with-stricter-performance-reviews-536062-Jul2012/

I strongly suspect you should get your facts straight before making silly comments.

Christ, the fact you couldn't just ask for the link but had to go and make yourself look foolish in the process.

Oh noodler dont try and reach so hard please, your attempt to pronounce me foolish say more about you than me

Your link does nothing other than verify a figure of 30 in one year for one category and shows it was a cherry picked number as I suspected.

It does not give any details on the reasons for the rest of deferred payments because I know from personal experience the number is ALOT higher than 30 people whose increment was deferred, and I also know from published reports that figure is alot higher.

And we won't even discuss the obvious entire PS having their increments deferred either

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

No but you can sure as ****e that if the manager acts the job****e and scratches his arse while he works there he will be on the dole queue pronto.

How much did Lidl borrow last year?
How much are Lidl in debt this year?

Nice try

Nice try .. says it all .. I thought we had left the school yard!

Basically, despite all the efforts to say otherwise, incremental pays systems apply in both the public and private sector. Now if increments are described as pay increases in the PS then it follows they also qualify as pay increases in the private sector ... a 38% pay increase over 4 years is not a bad return in a sector where apparently pay is falling/stagnant ...

A big problem with the arguments put forward by those against the PS is that its seems perfectly OK to use sweeping statements and generalisations to explain the position of an individual PS but in no way can a similar approach be taken to those in the private sector.

Riskymove

noodler wrote: »

So, you agree then? Only 30 were refused increments based on performance?

the main problem from experience here is with the system itself. Much more needs to be done to support managers tackle problems with performance.

Underperformance remains a key issue for the PS and anyone trying to do their job would support it being done.


Also, just as an aside, a large chunk of the CS would not be getting an increment in any particular year.

Ctrl Alt Delete

fliball123 wrote: »

I do yeah but if you leave the public service shouldnt you be saving on their pay?

The maths is there and sound for you to do

I'm not sure why I'm explaining this but I'll bite.

You cannot save 10% off a 17.5b pensions bill that will still have to paid to the 10% of the workforce who left / retired and the already retired.

The 10% is not a directly correlating number in terms of pension savings, it is an indicator of future potential savings, as at end of the day whether you work for the PS for 1 year of 20 years you will still be entitled to payment of your contributions at retirement age.

PeteFalk78

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Frankly I couldnt give a toss what you want to do tbh

Nice.

ardmacha

fliball123 wrote: »

Do we have to pay for ps pensions..yes we do regardless of your personal attacks the math is there for you to do..We have 10% less employed now then back in 2007 where the public sector pay and penions bill was 17.6 billion now having cut the numbers by 10% you would of expected to saved maybe 1.7 billion off this and according to people on here the cuts with the pension levy have lead to an overall cut of 25% so say leave it at 20% so you would of expected to save another what??? 3billion on our annual costs..

.

it isn't rocket science, if you are using the pay and pension bill than you must divide by the number receiving pay and pensions. If you want to divide by the number receiving pay than use the pay bill.

You have a case, you should not need to engage in banana calculations to make it.